Martin Aspeli wrote:
* are we going to target Zope 3 only with this site, or Zope 2 as
well? I wrote text to cover both, as Zope 2 is currently the
breadwinner of most of us. I think we can get enthusiasm more easily
for Zope 3 however; nobody is going to write Zope 2 tutorials. What
do we do?
I would say, let's not bite off more than we can chew. Getting a punch
web-site is not easy. The hard part is reducing the amount of content,
not creating it. I'd say focus on Zope 3 for now - it's what we want
to promote as the next big thing, it's what realistically holds a
candle to e.g. Rails and it's more "pythonic" in the sense that the
rest of the python world may take more of an interest in it.
I agree that Zope 3 is what we can muster the most attention for.
I'm still hopeful we can at least swap out zope.org's frontpage and
initial pages with something better that describes both Zope 2, Zope 3,
and its relationship. Quite a bit of text is already written that
attempts that which is in codespeak svn.
From there on I expect we focus mostly on Zope 3.
Then again, I'd be okay too if we'd just end up with a zope3.org; I can
rewrite my text.
* we need to answer the question whether we want a famous
low-amounts-of-minutes "how do you build app Foo in Zope 3"
screencast. If so, someone will need to design it.
I think Paul Everitt has done some screen casts before. You should talk
to him about his experiences and what software he uses.
Yes, he showed me some work he's doing on zope 3 related screencasts and
I think this is excellent. I'm not likely to starting to produce
screencasts myself directly any time soon, though for a Zope 3
beginner's tutorial I'm interested in contributing in working out the
* are we going to do a newsletter or not? I worry about having it be
up to date, but if we get some volunteers I'm not against it. If this
turns out to be hard, then we'd better focus on the website, not a
newsletter, as this gives us far more marketing pay-off. (zope.org is
currently anti-marketing zope)
Who subscribes to a newsletter? :-)
Again, let's do the big-wins first. Newsletters can be added if the
traffic and volunteers warrant it.
See elsethread discussion with Michael Haubenwaller: the newsletter
effort will run on planetzope.org for the time being, so we can stop
worrying about it in the context of a zope website for now.
* we need inspired writers to improve the texts and organize it
further. We need a good marketing message.
I don't think I'm far enough into zope 3 to come up with much of this,
but I'm quite good with reviewing text and making sure it's clear,
concise and punchy. I'd certainly like to help with that.
Please review the text already hiding out in svn here:
* we need start collecting Zope 3 documentation we can put online. We
need to mine what's there online right now, approach the creators with
a proposal for a new home (we could even have a mockup of it all in
the grand new design, see next point), and process the documents so
I would caution against throwing everything in there that is vaguely
good. Quality must be the first priority, and seriously - no wikis.
I agree quality control is important, and I agree on no wikis (we can
look at integrating zopewiki.org and so on later, but it shouldn't be
This would need review and control, not the potential to grow into
another zope.org. Existing documents would probably need to be
reformatted for style and layout, and we'd have to think carefully
about providing a good picture.
Yes. Let's make a procedure for that:
* find the document you think would be good to have
* propose it on this list
* if it gets the +1s, go ahead and contact the document author for
permission to include it as part of a new zope(3).org and whether we can
download and edit it. The list discussion can also result in a good
place in the overall structure that we're developing that the document
can be put into.
* If we get this permission, reformat (if necessary) this document into
restructured text and check it into our SVN. We need to have a credits
file we need to update, and also a pattern in restructured text for
marking the original author and editor of this document.
I actually quite like the Django tutorial
(http://www.djangoproject.com/documentation/tutorial1) because it's
easy to follow, bite-sized, and I could get a pretty good idea of how
it works by skimming the code + screenhots and skipping most of the text.
As a visitor, I need to have a single place to start, and a clear path
through the information, not just a dump of information that I have to
wade through myself. And most importantly, all the documentation (and I
mean all of it) needs to be consistent, not only in style and message,
but in the development patterns presented. I know zope 3 is powerful
and great, but don't throw every combination out there all at once.
People who want to invest in the framework will have plenty of time to
discover all that. What we need to do is make it feasible for them to
take that plunge.
I agree completely with this. Less well structured information is
beneficial to large amounts of confusing information.
That said, I think having a section with links outside the site would
still be useful, and I think it can be structured ("related material
elsewhere" sections) in a way so that it doesn't disturb the main
pattern of information. This is not of the primary importance though.
* does anyone know a good web designer who can design a solid
looking, serious, but still exciting website for zope?
We need one. Coders make poor visual designers. :)
There are no coders here, we're just all copy editors and such. :)
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