On Aug 23, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Janko Hauser wrote:


Am 23.08.2005 um 20:36 schrieb Shane Hathaway:


Gary Poster wrote:


On Aug 23, 2005, at 1:11 PM, Gary Poster wrote:

Argh, communication. That still could be too-easily misinterpreted, and I didn't stare at it long enough before I sent it. One more try. Meanwhile, deciding that a community project require any specific backend--Ape, FileStorage, DirectoryStorage, or another--feels like a mistake. Discarding FileStorage or DirectoryStorage, as Florent argues, is a significant case of "throwing the baby out with the bath water". We have at least three maintained and capable ZODB backends, with different strengths and weaknesses, appropriate for different use cases. Lets not jump to discard any of them.



I agree 100%. However, your concern is that projects will require a specific ZODB backend, while my concern is that projects will dump ZODB altogether. I think the latter is the greater risk, and people need a middle ground so they don't isolate themselves from the rest of the community. Ape could be a part of that middle ground.

Also, I did not intend to disparage the excellent FileStorage and DirectoryStorage packages. I always tell people to use FileStorage or DirectoryStorage unless they have a good reason not to, and the biggest reason not to use FileStorage (through-the-web code is hard to put under version control) is already disappearing with Zope 3.


This is a good discussion, and I think this will provide a good ground for a technical pro/contra view of the storage situation. But I think the post from Florent looks at this from a slightly different angle. Perhaps I misinterpret it, but his thoughts look at the needs for a content repository storage.

Hm.   Maybe so.  I'm happy to run with that hypothesis for a while. :-)

I do not think he wanted to totally replace ZODB for all the other stuff. And assuming he looks at the storage question from this point (actually Florent is in holidays at the moment)

Good to know. :-)

his views are build with some general concerns as background.

Let's assume "enterprise" means big and sellable to corporations, then the concerns of potential customers are valid, that valuable content is stored in some piece of software, which is only known to a small group of developers. Building a content repository as a marketable solution on this piece of software needs more convincing than to say "We have this piece of great software and your content ends in your favorite traditional RDBMS."

I didn't quite follow this, but from the next paragraph it doesn't seem to be the heart of your message anyway.

Ok I will stop to interpret what Florent may have thought, I better present my own path of thinking. In the end I'm against a RDBMS as the only core part of a Zope CMS repository.

I started with the general idea to have a content repository for simple content objects, which are all described by schemas. This leads to a rather flat and more structured, nearly homogenous mass of objects, compared to the normal objects present in a Zope CMS. The repository is a layer over potentially many storages. This leads fairly easily to the idea to have a backend storage which stores this data into a RDBMS. This is the level Florent probably looked at also. But I have concerns to many of the other points. At this level the RDBMS is really just a storage of attribute mappings. The hole logic, for example the relation between different content objects is part of the stored data or held in the repository application or some registries. I assume that the moment one starts to use the relational aspects of the RDBMS the application logic becomes part of the storage. This would need to be adressed in the O-R-mapper, which would mean that also the O-R- mapper becomes part of the application logic. There are further proposed benefits of an RDBMS-storage like indexing, direct searching, report generation which are all reflecting back in the application domain, which would lead in the end to the situation that one would circumvent the O-R-mapper for complex or special tasks and starts to work directly on the data. This in the end is bad from my point of view and greatly raises the complexity. It would also mean a big development effort to recreate, overshadow and map current functionality given us by Zope for nearly free.

Yes, you've identified some of my big concerns. While I am very much in favor of O/R mappings such as Ape being a supported back-end for a shared community project--and maybe even an optimized one in some cases, if someone wants to invest the time to build it--I am worried about having a project that begins to rely on it as the primary storage, precisely because of the sorts of reasons you mention.

There are many valid points where the ZODB has some shortcomings. Blob support for example will be much better, although it will not be totally solved by just storing blobs on the filesystem. Which leads to my last point. From a "solution" point of view there are many hacks or individual adaptions involved to have a big scalable site. I think we should look for some of these to be better, means more standardly incorporated into the z3ecms toolbox.

Or the Zope 3 toolbox, or even the ZODB toolbox.  Agreed generally.

Just for example, the answer to time consuming cataloging for cases with many writes is to use the queued catalog product. But integrating it into a system is a hand job, needs a developer who knows how to do it, where to "fiddle" to integrate it right.

We have an easier to integrate Zope 3 version with a different design in the zc sandbox now, by the way.

Such technically already present software needs to be integrated as simple configurable options into a z3ecms solution. This needs probably not be done in the Zope3 core but in products building atop of this.

I agree that it is the place of projects such as z3ecms to make this sort of integration easy (and even sanely preconfigured, if possible).

On the other side these things should therefor not be used to argument for a total replacement of the storage solution.

Right.

As a last note, the concept of a repository as a layer over many storages does certainly allow to use an APE-based storage as one part of this :-)

Yes indeed.

Gary
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