Gary Poster wrote:
To each his own, I suppose, but I'm surprised you included File in the rant-list. Lots of non-web-design uses want that. We've had our problems with big blobs, but they should be addressed, and in the core, and files should be probably included either in the core or as a well-maintained, highly-used, shared addition.

Yes, that's a valid point. I also stopped myself from listing folders, since a folder is a general organizational tool. Let's just talk about templates and scripts.

As to the rest, while I think I understand at least a good chunk of the genesis of your statement, I'm glad that the component system *will* allow others to explore ZODB-based TTW dev as an add-on, as you suggested in a later message. You meant it in a derogatory sense, but

Actually, I didn't.  I only meant it in a separation-of-concerns sense.

Incidentally, I find it difficult to make any argument about anything because I fully appreciate many sides of the issue. :-)

one could argue that ZODB-based TTW dev got to be so problematic *because* it was so successful. There are strengths there.

That said, I'm eager to see what you might think up as an alternative: I think both paths might be fruitful.

The web root is my best idea for an alternative.

Although I've been talking about addressing the needs of new adopters, I'm really trying to address *my* needs. I want to build a complex web site using Zope technologies, but I don't yet know enough about what I'm building to be able to do any model/view separation. I intend to write dirty, filthy, unmaintainable code. It's the right thing to do! If it works, I'll clean it up. If it doesn't, I'll throw it away and try something else. If I write it with Zope technologies, I know I can succeed at cleaning it up because Zope has the most powerful tools out there. If I write it with Apache, I'm certain I'll end up building my own framework to support whatever flavor of messiness the solution generates, it'll take twice as long, and it will be impossible to clean up, so I'll have to start over if I want it to last. Gimme Zope!

While I'm writing messy code, I also invent messy processes along the way, and ZODB can't easily support my random new processes. I often write automated tests for messy code. I often think to myself, "what is the ugliest possible way I can write this?" Then I really do it and laugh. That gets me moving when I'm stalled. Sometimes I rewrite something ten times, relying on version control to get me back. It turns out that the CMF skins tool is much better at supporting this kind of work than Zope 3 currently is.

I want Zope to encourage clean code just like everyone else, but interesting things rarely start out clean! If Zope wants to be a platform that people can use to invent crazy new things, it has to allow for messy code and processes.

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