On 9/25/06, Martijn Faassen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Baiju M wrote:
> On 9/22/06, Jim Fulton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> <snip>
>> Finally, I'm experimenting with using launchpad for bugs:
>>    https://launchpad.net/products/zc.buildout/+bugs
>> and feature requests:
>>    https://features.launchpad.net/products/zc.buildout/
>> So far this is working OK. I haven't really stressed it. Launchpad
>> makes this very easy to set up and I don't think they are allergic to
>> having us create lots of projects.
> Let's move Zope3 issue collector to launchpad?
> (Once this discussion came to ZF list, I think there were more +1)

Before we move any issue collectors to launchpad, we need a bit more
experience with the launchpad issue tracker and its capabilities. I'm
also wonder whether launchpad has good issue export facilities in case
we want to move to another system.

With Tres, I think we should also explore options like Trac. I
personally think Trac has attractive features in the way it integrates
the development process into things like an issue tracker.

I love Trac. I've never installed it or used it to manage any projects
on my own, but I find that I stay on top of open source projects more
if they're using Trac.

On a small aesthetics side, I find Launchpad's side bars incredibly
distracting, and I don't like looking at the page because it feels
like there are too many things vying for my attention and I have a
hard time really reading the text in front of me. The content gets
squished. And then I find myself looking at all of these links and
buttons around the page trying to figure out what has the information
I'm interested in. The sidebar on Zope.org bothers me in the same way
when I try to read the Zope 3 wiki - but Zope.org feels nowhere near
as noisy as Launchpad. I'm sure their tools are great, and the hosting
service is a good feature.

But my temper is short these days. My attention span is not: if I can
find and read a page that's not full of distractions, I'll stay and
read it and learn. But when there are boxes on all sides chock full of
colors and links, reading is much harder.

A nice simple example is this nice page in SQLAlchemy's Trac wiki (a
page I read over and over as I migrated code to 0.2):


It's very nice. I can read that page, print it, save it to a local
permanent archive, etc.

There is something about Trac's feature set, implementation, and in
how it's installed (in most cases) that make it very nice for a
cantankerous, stressed out, often overburdened worker like me to stay
on top of and even want to get involved (even on some small level)
with a project - and that I can do this in small amounts of time. The
Zope 3 wiki, collector, and even subversion browser, all feel like
they require more of a full time job to stay involved. And if not a
full time job, then at least some seriously set-aside time. It's very
hard to get answers to "what's gone on recently?", "what are all of
the bugs, and let me see and sort them quickly on some different
criteria, and let me then see how they were fixed, and then let me
quickly find some minor annoyance issues that I might be able to fix".
With a Trac setup like SQLAlchemy is using, I feel like I can do this
at home in the morning during my browse-and-drink-coffee-time. With
the current Zope tools (and my limited experience with Launchpad's
tools), it does not feel casual at all to keep up with everything
going on. And that makes it hard to stay enthusiastic and energized
about a project.


- http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/RoadMap

- http://www.sqlalchemy.org/trac/milestone/0.3.0?by=severity

I wish there had been something like that Trac milestone page for Zope
3.3. Of course, it doesn't show everything going on. But it would have
made it much easier to find out what may have been slowing the release
down so much, and then easier to want to get involved and make it
happen sooner.

The lack of distracting side columns, the integration of the Wiki, the
Roadmaps/Milestones, the Subversion integration (being able to refer
to tickets, wiki pages, etc in commit log messages and having the
links generated in the web. [ticket:309], etc), the custom issue
tracker reports: it's a very nice system to use, even casually.

The Timeline is like a Wiki's "Recent Changes" on crack. Except the
crack is filled with helpful vitamins: recent wiki changes, recent
checkins, recent issue tracker activity (bugs submitted, opened,
closed). It just feels so much more alive.

Jeff Shell
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