I would add ZPT, skins and increasingly formlib to the list of things to
learn. +1 on demos vs. tutorials. A good working demo functions as both a
tutorial and a testimonial. 

I think right off the bat, the bookmarker app should be incrementally
expanded. Evolving the app *is* the power of Zope3. 

Other apps that start off easy but can grow increasinly complex fast.
 * blog
 * wiki

I've been wanting to put together a Concept Map companion to the Bookmarker
tutorial. If anyone is interested in helping out please give me a buzz, and
I'll setup a collaborative concept map.

Roman Susi wrote:
> Joel Moxley wrote:
>> On 2/26/06, Roman Susi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>Hi joel,
> ...
>>>Probably such a simple app doesn't require more than 2 hours from
>>>seasoned Zope3 developer ;-)
>> I think you're right.  I rethought what an intro app should be, and I
>> think the bookmarker one gets the job done.
>> The one drawback for the bookmarker is that there's not documentation
>> on taking it deeper and making it do more.
>> Another idea I had would be to take the worldcookery app straight from
>> the example code chapter 5 or 6 and provide a streamlined "do this in
>> 30 min" introduction.  Then if someone wanted to go deeper into what
>> they had done or go farther and add more features, philikon's book
>> would be right there.  The obvious drawback would be the lack of 3.1
>> and 3.2 specific features.
>> In any event, I think a well-conceived "official" getting started
>> guide would carry much weight in that crucial time when someone would
>> be looking around at various frameworks like ror and django.  There
>> are some decent guides out there, and I am curious to see what the
>> consensus would be.
> Yes... Zope 3 looks heavy-weight and complicated - not for everyone. And
> even non-everyone has hard time.
> Even Karrigell:
> http://karrigell.sourceforge.net/
> "sells" better to Python programmer with its
> def index():
>     print "Hello, world !"
> thing. (Cf. Zope3 Hello World)
> So, good tutorials and examplar application could help.
> The problem with current Zope3 material is... lack of motivation. To
> deal with Zope3 you need to master these concepts:
>  - views
>  - layers
>  - resources
>  - viewlets
>  - content objects
>  - schemas
>  - utilities
>  - services
>  - site
>  - interfaces
>  - adapters
>  - principals
>  - tests
>  - ZCML configuration
> (have I forgot anything?)
> And you need to RTFM a lot! And then spend a lot of time writing
> IHelloWorld, configure.zcml, permissions, etc. around simple thing:
> def index(self):
>     return "Hello, world !"
> So, examplar app should show WHY do I want all this. Then Zope3 will be
> ready to accept Wows! and attract people who go to Ruby railstation or
> whatever. And I want to know HOW the power of Python is useful inside
> Zope3. By the impression (first and second) I see no reason why Zope3 is
> done in Python and not in Java or Cobol.
> Probably, several apps/components are required to show the best of
> Zope3. For example, PythonCard has (and always had) a lot of small demos
> which REALLY demonstrate why using PythonCard is easier than just plain
> wxWindows / wxWidgets. And those demos are small because using
> PythonCard framework made applications small.
> Maybe SQLObject can be used to make things more compact.
> (BTW, I think that "ZODBObject" for ZODB could be a far more plus. Yes,
> I know ZODBObject is just Persistent object in Zope, but how do I make
> this with ZODB as easy as:
> class Person(SQLObject):
>     ...
>     addresses = MultipleJoin('Address')
> ? That is, quering ZODB is difficult (it's probably a problem of any
> OODB, but nonetheless).
> )
> To summarize, are there any demo apps which make people jump with joy? I
> do not believe Zope3 is difficult because its serious framework.
> Frameworks are there to subtract complexity, not add. And demos are just
> for that: to show cases where complexity is reduced.
> Please note, that I changed discussion from tutorial to demo. This is
> because I believe that good demo is also good tutorial.
> Regards,
> Roman Suzi
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