Ron

yes +thanks for paying keen attention here..

> > What Manila has done is to provide some reasonable default templates for
> > getting useful site development work done 'out of the box' - they have
> > provided a structure template, and well defined access to changing the
> > obvious things people want to change.
>
> I see.  Having higher level drop-in Web sites, IMO, is a job for add-on
Zope
> products that could be created by DC or the community to meet various
needs
> (as in Squishdot like projects).  As the Zope community grows, I have no
> doubt that more add-on products for "Web sites in a can" will pop up.


Exactly.
My concern is to get the right kind of discussion going because it is going
to need some differnt kinds of minds to work together.

> I can only guess that most Zope users are either not designers or are so
> filled with awe over its power that they forget to put effort into beauty.
> :-)  I think Zope lends itself more to the programmer and content provider
> types, and leaves the designer with nothing special to desire.  I don't
say
> that in a bad way, but Zope isn't a design tool, so designers have no
> special interest in learning to use it.  As Zope makes its way into more
> businesses with design teams, pretty design will make its way into more
Zope
> sites.

Problem is am not sure Zopie will make its way into more businesses wiht
design teams if it is such a pain in the $# to get sites sketched out.

A really valuable  feature which Zope could offer is Site-Sketching
You do the back of napkin whiteboard 'design' of the main site architecture
hierharchy functioning. Now you need to map it out in 'dummy' mode so
everyone can get to work playing with it and working on the bits they are
all best at.
You know you are going to make changes and so you want to benfit from object
abstraction from the get go
You know in house team and design [visual + code] will force changes not to
mention clients..
Then start throwing database at it - look and feel vs. satabase search
menchaisms etc. This can be expensive time consumign stuff.. things people
need to apply samrt reusable components to.. but which also allow them to
get down very fingraoned and adjust = zope
I think there is a big demand for this kind of up and running toolset.

A zope folder full images or navigation widgets or search form elements are
the type of things yu want to do a single copy paste or import on.

I am a designer who has a special interest in learning to use.
I do not see many other tools with this potential, but in its present state
and my present programming skills, I am still a little short of being able
to take Zope where I see it can go on my own. I hope this changes soon..


> My understanding is that DC has been putting so much of their resources
into
> the Zope core, much needed documentation, and probably their consulting
> business, that their own Web site has been left with a lower priority.  I
> don't fault them for that.  I think they've done a great job at
> prioritizing.

Granted.
The price is right and there is some hairy stuff under the hood.
I just hope DC can step back a bit more from time to time to see where they
fit in from other perspectives also.
I realize their income comes from consulting.
They could apply their expertise [or others] to package off useful stuff for
a reasonable price.
Zope products coudl be very cost efefctive all around - those with teh time
and skills can develope their own.
Perhaos you are right adn it is still a little early yet.. maybe next year..

> > And if you select yes you will get 'index_html' and 'acl_users'
included..
> > THIS is the entry point I am talking about
> > The 'Add a Folder' page needs to offer more so that it can default to
the
> > immediate bones of a useful site, methods and links. The irony to

> I think the "bones of a useful site" belong in a different object than a
> Folder, though I agree that specialized products/objects for canned sites
> would be a nice addition to the Zope products list, whether from DC or the
> community.

Yes.  How about :
- 'Add Bones object'
- 'Add Navigation Object'
- Add Styles object'
- 'Add Report Object'
- 'Add WebSite Object'

Any one else interested to go further with this?

kind regards
- Jason


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