Chris Withers wrote:
Nick Davis wrote:


there seem to still be migration problems and broken products which prevent people going to 2.1 yet.

Yup.

this strikes me as a bit unfair. to quote stefan holek from a post on plone-dev earlier today, most reported migration problems are due to:

- Upgrading to Zope 2.8 without reading the release notes.
- Third party products that are not yet fully compatible
  with Plone 2.1 and/or Zope 2.8.
- Sites that have customized parts of Plone they shouldn't
  have touched in the first place.
- Plone Team stupidity.

thus, while it's true that we have made mistakes (and will continue to, no doubt), most of the problems are issues beyond our control.

as for the broken products, that is a pandemic within the open source community, hardly unique to plone. how many zope products are out there of dubious quality, or that are poorly maintained? whenever you get a large community of developers, you get a mixed bag of talent and of follow-through. the suggestion you make in your talk of having a peer rating process for add-on products is a good one, certainly, and one that's been discussed before, but getting there takes some effort.

My colleague has spent a long time trying to migrate a Product he wrote, from Archetypes 1.2.5 to 1.3.4, due to the fact he had to hack around problems with references.

Archetypes is the chief sinner in all of this, I'm afraid. It's trying to solve a very difficult problem, and one which needs tackling with structure and upfront and intuitive design rather than the organic tacking on of new "bitz" whenever anyone felt like it that AT has suffered through...

My fear is as more features are added, what you describe as a shaky stack of complex fragile components will get ever more dependencies and therefore ever more complex and fragile.

Yup.

yes, AT is in many ways a mess. but, as you say, it's tackling a very difficult problem, and, like most attempts at tackling difficult problems, the first iterations were somewhat less than perfect. the same can be said for zope itself... there's a reason z3 was a complete rewrite.

AT's problems are entirely recognized by those of us who use it heavily, and i can assure you that the AT developer pool has no intention of continuing to pile more cruft on top of a shaky stack. instead, we're looking at how we can break the framework apart into components that can all be glued together in a nice z3 fashion. there are a great many tools available to us now that were not available when AT was originally developed (adapters, events, views, etc.), and we have every intention of making use of them to improve the stack (by making it leaner and more efficient, NOT by adding features willy-nilly!). ideally, you'll be able to pick and choose from the various AT features, using adapters to glue the functionality you need (and only what you need) into your own products.

the first iterations of this will probably also have some warts. but please don't assume that plone/AT developers don't see the same problems that you see, and that they aren't willing and able to learn from their mistakes.

-r

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