On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 23:38 +0100, Mike Tintner wrote: > Michael:but those things do have patterns.. A mushroom (A) is like a cloud > > mushroom (B). > > > > if ( (input_source_A == An_image) AND ( input_source_B == An_image )) > > > > One pattern is that they both came from an image source, and I just used > > maths + logic to prove it > > Michael, > > This is a bit desperate isn't it? It's a common misconception that high level queries aren't very good. Imagine 5 senses, sight, touch taste .. etc.
We confirm the input is from sight. By doing this we potentially reduce the combination of what it could be by 4/5 ~ 80%. which is pretty awesome. Computer programs know nothing. You have to tell them everything (narrow AI) or allow the mechanics to find out things for themselves. > > "They both come from image sources". So do a zillion other images, from > Obama to dung - so they're all alike? Everything in the world is alike and > metaphorical for everything else? > > And their images must be alike because they both have an 'o' and a 'u' in > their words, (not their images)- unless you're a Chinese speaker. > > Pace Lear, "that way madness lies." > > Why don't you apply your animation side to the problem - and analyse the > images per images, and how to compare them as images? Some people in AGI > although not AFAIK on this forum are actually addressing the problem. I'm > sure *you* can too. > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Michael Swan" <ms...@voyagergaming.com> > Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 8:28 AM > To: "agi" <agi@v2.listbox.com> > Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 03:45 +0100, Mike Tintner wrote: > >> Let's crystallise the problem - all the unsolved problems of AGI - > >> visual > >> object recognition, conceptualisation, analogy, metaphor, creativity, > >> language understanding and generation - are problems where you're > >> dealing > >> with freeform, irregular patchwork objects - objects which clearly do not > >> fit any *patterns* - the raison d'etre of maths . > >> > >> To focus that , these objects do not have common parts in more or less > >> precisely repeating structures - i.e. fit patterns. > >> > >> A cartoon and a photo of the same face may have no parts or structure in > >> common. > >> Ditto different versions of the Google logo. Zero common parts or > >> structure > >> > >> Ditto "cloud" and "mushroom" - no common parts, or common structure. > >> > >> Yet the mind amazingly can see likenesses between all these things. > >> > >> Just about all the natural objects in the world , with some obvious > >> exceptions, do not fit common patterns - they do not have the same parts > >> in > >> precisely the same places/structures. They may have common loose > >> "organizations" of parts - e.g. mouths, eyes, noses, lips - but they are > >> not precisely patterned. > >> > >> So you must explain how a mathematical approach, wh. is all about > >> recognizing patterns, can apply to objects wh. do not fit patterns. > >> > >> You won't be able to - because if you could bring yourselves to look at > >> the > >> real world or any depictions of it other than geometric, (metacognitively > >> speaking),you would see for yourself that these objects don't have > >> precise > >> patterns. > >> > >> It's obvious also that when the mind likens a cloud to a mushroom, it > >> cannot > >> be using any math. techniques. > > > > .. but those things do have patterns.. A mushroom (A) is like a cloud > > mushroom (B). > > > > if ( (input_source_A == An_image) AND ( input_source_B == An_image )) > > > > One pattern is that they both came from an image source, and I just used > > maths + logic to prove it. > >> > >> But we have to understand how the mind does do that - because it's fairly > >> clearly the same technique the mind also uses to conceptualise even more > >> vastly different forms such as those of "chair," "tree", "dog," "cat." > >> > >> And that technique - like concepts themselves - is at the heart of AGI. > >> > >> And you can sit down and analyse the problem visually, physically and see > >> also pretty obviously that if the mind can liken such physically > >> different > >> objects as cloud and mushroom, then it HAS to do that with something like > >> a > >> fluid schema. There's broadly no other way but to fluidly squash the > >> objects > >> to match each other (there could certainly be different techniques of > >> achieving that - but the broad principles are fairly self evident). > >> Cloud > >> and mushroom certainly don't match formulaically, mathematically. Neither > >> do > >> those different versions of a tune. Or the different faces of Madonna. > >> > >> But what we've got here is people who don't in the final analysis give a > >> damn about how to solve AGI - if it's a choice between doing maths and > >> failing, and having some kind of "artistic" solution to AGI that actually > >> works, most people here will happily fail forever. Mathematical AI has > >> indeed consistently failed at AGI. You have to realise, mathematicians > >> have > >> a certain kind of madness. Artists don't go around saying God is an > >> artist, > >> or everything is art. Only mathematicians have that compulsion to reduce > >> everything to maths, when the overwhelming majority of representations > >> are > >> clearly not mathematical - or claim that the obviously irregular abstract > >> arts (think Pollock) are mathematical. You're in good company - Wolfram, > >> a > >> brilliant fellow, thinks his patterns constitute a new kind of science, > >> when > >> the vast majority of scientists can see they only constitute a new kind > >> of > >> pattern, and do not apply to the real world. > >> > >> Look again - the brain is primarily a patchwork adapted to a patchwork, > >> very extensively unpatterned world - incl. the internet itself - adapted > >> primarily not to neat, patterned networks, but to tangled, patchwork, > >> non-mathematical webs. See fotos. > >> > >> The outrageous one here is not me. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------- > >> From: "Michael Swan" <ms...@voyagergaming.com> > >> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2010 2:19 AM > >> To: "agi" <agi@v2.listbox.com> > >> Subject: Re: [agi] How do we hear music > >> > >> > Hi, > >> > > >> > Sometimes outrageous comments are a catalyst for better ideas. > >> > > >> > On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 01:48 +0200, Jan Klauck wrote: > >> >> Mike Tintner trolled > >> >> > >> >> > And maths will handle the examples given : > >> >> > > >> >> > same tunes - different scales, different instruments > >> >> > same face - cartoon, photo > >> >> > same logo - different parts [buildings/ fruits/ human figures] > >> >> > >> >> Unfortunately I forgot. The answer is somewhere down there: > >> >> > >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eigenvalue,_eigenvector_and_eigenspace > >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition > >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve_fitting > >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_identification > >> >> > >> > No-one has successfully integrated these concepts into a working AGI, > >> > despite numerous attempts. Even though these concept feel general, when > >> > implemented, only narrow or "affected by combinatorial explosion" have > >> > succeeded. > >> > > >> >> > revealing them to be the same - how exactly? > >> >> > >> >> Why should anybody explain that mystery to you? You are not an > >> >> accepted member of the Grand Lodge of AGI Masons or its affiliates. > >> >> > >> >> > Or you could take two arseholes - same kind of object, but > >> >> > radically > >> >> > different configurations - maths will show them to belong to the > >> >> > same > >> >> > category, how? > >> >> > >> >> How will you do it? By licking them? > >> > > >> > Personal attacks only weaken your arguments. > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------- > >> >> agi > >> >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > >> >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > >> >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > >> >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------- > >> > agi > >> > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > >> > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > >> > Modify Your Subscription: > >> > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > >> > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------- > >> agi > >> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > >> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > >> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > >> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > agi > > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > > Modify Your Subscription: > > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > agi > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ > Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=8660244-6e7fb59c Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
