Dear Ed and All,
Yesterday evening I met someone who had played Jakob Lindberg's
Rauwolf, and he told me that it had indeed both wonderful clarity and
sustain (as Jakob says), so that you can hear each voice, and indeed
each course, quite separately.
This could be the sort of quality that the French musicians were
searching out for their new tunings (similar to what Anthony Bailes was
hoping for with the Wengerer), and perhaps close to the quality Dan
Larson achieved when replacing the damaged top on your previous 11c
67cm Frei with a very hard Adirondack top. You said, "The top wood is
gorgeous, and the sound is very complex. As many have described
Adirondack for tops, the treble is very clear, and very strong. I have
never heard a new lute with such a singing treble, which makes for a
very wonderful sound."
http://www.mail-archive.com/baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg01536.html
It is entirely possible that it is the hardness of the tables of the
old lutes (similar to your Adirondack) which gives this singing
quality.
%
So now, I wonder whether the Sitke Spruce on your new 11c lute is not
even harder, and with even more of this quality?
This must be a very interesting project for Dan Larson, enabling both
of you to hear the varied effects of Italian spruce (the original
lute), Adirondack on the restoration, and now "a thin piece of
bear-claw Sitka Spruce, from Sitka, Alaska." on your new lute.
That is as close as one can get to neutralizing other parameters so as
to make an almost scientific comparison of the tables. Are you able to
make judgement about this, and possibly even to record some comparison
tracks?
%
Other ways of achieving hard tops might be the use of very old timber
submerged in the great lakes.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/buying_submerged_lumber
A specialist of biochemistry at Texas, Professor Nagyvary says that
"when wood is submerged, bacteria eat away at "hemicellulose" and
starchy matter in the wood, creating wood ideal for instrument
makers." He also provoked this hardening effect by applying Borax
salts to table-wood; and Martyn has mentioned research application of
oxidyzed linseed oil on tables, all with very similar results.
%
It may be a pity that more instruments do not appear benefitting from
this sort of research; indeed, Stephen Gottlieb has told me that modern
European spruce is now softer, and needs to be cut thicker (so we have
perhaps lost something from a historical performance point of view).
Nevertheless, my 11c lute with bear claw spruce (I don't know of what
origin), but strung with loaded strings, did have this singing quality,
even before, I attempted to improve on the stringing. I believe that
even with our quite different methods and sensitivities many of us may
be striving for similar qualities.
%
"On the basses, I use 2.9 Kg of tension on the fundamentals _and_ the
octaves."
I find your string tensions very interesting. I was expecting
you to have adopted quite low tensions to achieve thinnish Pistoy
basses (similar to those of T. Satoh), but I see you are fairly close
to my overall tensions (2K7 on basses and about 3K on octaves), except
that I have slightly less bass tension. Even with loaded strings, I do
prefer thinnish basses. However, this is just a personal preference;
Benjamin N. has thicker basses, and he also achieves a marvellous
singing quality.
Fortunately, there are various ways of achieving a similar, but
hopefully slightly different, musical result, catering for personal
choices and taste.
Best regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com>
AEUR : Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>; Edward Martin
<e...@gamutstrings.com>
Cc : "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 22h24
Objet : Re : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony and all,
You are correct, in that the table on my lute is ultra hard, being a
thin piece of bear-claw Sitka Spruce, from Sitka, Alaska. That
material is seldom used in lutes, because it is so hard and dense,
making lute rose carving very difficult. But, the results are
brilliant. I have another lute, a 13 course Burkholtzer, and I have
Pistoys also down to the 10th course, and it is also clear. In my
opinion, I like it better than gimped or loaded gut - that is my
preference.
For tension, I use a medium tension throughout. On the basses, I use
2.9 Kg of tension on the fundamentals _and_ the octaves. The important
point is that one must also use an octave at least as high in tension
than the fundamental. One interesting thing is the way the mathematics
work out. The octave always turns out always to be exactly half the
size of the fundamental. For example, if the bass is 1.6 mm, the
octave is 0.80 mm. In case you are interested, this is what I am
using:
Course Fundamental Octave
6 1.18 0.60
7 1.32 0.66
8 1.48 0.74
9 1.58 0.80
10 1.76 0.88
11 1.98 1.00
ed
At 07:22 AM 3/17/2012, Anthony Hind wrote:
> Dear Ed and All
> Many of us seemed to have enjoyed and been influenced by that
Reflexe recording, and indeed the wonderful Reflexe and AstrA(c)e LPs
in the 70s were how I was introduced to the pioneers; until I had the
chance of actually hearing some of them, Hoppy, and POD, Jakob
Lindberg, but unfortunately never Anthony Bailes.
> %
> I would gladly try those geared pegs, but I would also be
loth to remove Stephen Gottlieb's very elegant sculpted ones, but
perhaps the originals could be grafted on to the geared ones?
> When I remember to make the effort, Wolfgang Fruh's peg-turner does
go someway to gearing the peg turn.
> I bought it for the occasion when tend pegs stick, but actually it
works best on pegs that don't stick. It seems to
> make them more precise. Without the turner, the string jumps above
and then below the desired tuning point,
> with the tuner it seems to go much more smoothly. Of course, it does
not have the accuracy of your marvellous geared pegs.
> How wonderful to be the neighbour of an expert lute and string maker!
> %
> Perhaps your present success with pure gut Pistoys also relates to
the ultra hard table that Dan managed to make for your lute. I
understand tables can harden with the years, so perhaps your lute has
some of the sustain of an old lute, that helps your lute's response to
your stringing?
> Of course, with AB's 76cm string length it wouldn't be so surprising
if pure gut Pistoys did work well on the Wengerer lute, but if you
manage a free sounding bass, without a hint of tubbiness, it will be
quite an achievement for a 67cm lute in all Pistoy basses!
> %
> I had wanted to add a link to T. Satoh playing the Greiff, to compare
with low tension stringing of an old lute. I tried to use the old links
I have on my computer, but they all failed. I then tried to go on the
Channel Island Classic site, and Firefox signalled warnings that the
site had a very poor reputation. I couldn't understand how that could
be, but fearing it might be a scam site. I stopped my attempts, which
is a pity, as it would be interesting to compare.
> %
> You haven't said what tension you have on your basses, and your
octaves, but would you classify it as light, medium or heavy?
> regards
> Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> De : Edward Martin <[1]e...@gamutstrings.com>
> AEUR : Anthony Hind <[2]agno3ph...@yahoo.com>;
"[3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 17 mars 2012 1h08
> Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
>
> Dear Anthony and all,
>
> I also very much enjoy that old recording of AB on EMI Reflexe. A
great, old recording.
>
> Your statement that "(although, I imagine that with his 76cm lute
pure gut basses should also work well)" is in complete agreement with
my recent experimentation.
>
> As you know, I have been doing some experimentation on my "French"
lute, which is now one year old. It is 67.5 cm 11-course Frei.
Recently, I put on plain gut, down to the 10th course (actually,
Pistoys on the 5th, and Pistoy fundamentals on 6-10) The 11th course
still has a loaded gut fundamental from Mimmo. That is the only metal
I have on this lute, and I want to say that I am quite happy with the
sound of the pure (Pistoy) gut, i.e., without metal). In fact, I
prefer it to loaded gut. I just have not gotten around to trying the
11th fundamental in pure gut, but when I do, I think it will work just
fine. String makers have done a terrific job in research and
production of incorporating of metal into gut, but for my 11-course
lute with no bass extension, is very nice indeed. using pure gut. They
do not sound "tubby" at all.
>
> Unfortunately, I have not recorded this instrument yet, but will,
using this stringing configuration. In my opinion, at least when
discussing French baroque lute music, this is certainly worth trying.
>
> Another factor........ I have just made a huge modification on the
11-course lute. I have just installed planetary gears, instead of
pegs. I know some people disapprove of this, but for many reasons, I
am very, very happy with the results. They are expensive - that is a
drawback. The thing is, friction pegs can be problematic, and even the
best ones, perfectly fitted, do slip a little but. These "pegs" look
_exactly_ like an ebony lute peg, but then _never_ slip or stick. They
are geared to 25% of the turning of a friction peg; in other words,
one must turn 4 times the distance one would turn using a friction
peg. This makes tuning much, much more accurate, and it does not
stick, and the action is very fluid. The weight is identical to a lute
peg, so no weight is added. With these gears, it is actually, a joy to
tune!
>
> Sometimes with friction pegs, I may be more hesitant to make
micro-adjustments in tuning, but with planetary gears, they are so
smooth, fast, and accurate, it seems as though my lute sounds so much
better, as it is little to nothing to finely adjust the tuning. I now
have my 2 favorite instruments in these gears - my vihuela, and
11-course lute.
>
> In short, it is a winning combination - the beautiful sound in gut,
with greatly improved tuning.
>
> ed
>
>
>
>
>
> At 10:07 AM 3/16/2012, Anthony Hind wrote:
> > Dear All
> > Anthony Bailes LP recording of 'Pieces de luth'; EMI
REFLEXE;
> > IC 06330938, was my introduction to French baroque lute music.
> > After that I was hooked.
> > I have enjoyed his recent CDs (although I had not yet heard
this, his
> > most recent one), but regret that the recordings (in particular
"Old
> > Gautiers Nightinghall") do seem to have become a little more
> > reverberant, which may take away somewhat from his recent
excellent
> > string choices on the Wengerer: Nick Baldock trebles, Dan
Larson, Lyons
> > Meanes, and Mimmo Peruffo loaded basses (v AB seems to be
> > one of the few pioneers still experimenting seriously in gut
stringing.
> > %
> > Indeed, Anthony B. has always had an experimental atttitude to
historic
> > research. In his excellent article for Lute News 85, April 2008,
he
> > said, of the old Bologna lutes so sought after by the French,
that
> > Trichet tells us "French lute players were looking for
instruments
> > which were very resonant, and capable of sustain"; and he goes
on to
> > tell us of his experience of playing old lutes, "The last, and
most
> > important point is that notes on such instruments have more
sustain
> > coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is
> > particularly important as it can give the impression that a note
sounds
> > on longer than it actually does."
> > In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to
his
> > interpretation of this music that he appears willing to
sacrifice ideal
> > string length (and possibly barring), adopting the 76cm historic
Wenger
> > lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords.
> > %
> > Jakob Lindberg seems to confirm AB's experience, claiming two
almost
> > contradictory characteristics for his Rauwolf: "this has exactly
what I
> > want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing".
> > %
> > It seems to be the function of this quality that AB is seeking
to study
> > with his recent recordings, at the expense of any characteristic
> > specifically associated with more usual string lengths of around
68 cm
> > (as correctly suggested by Martyn). Of course one might have
preferred
> > AB to have discovered another 69.5 cm Rauwolf, Greiff (or
whatever),
> > but no doubt he had to settle for the Wenger, or possibly chose
it to
> > isolate what this could bring, in spite of string length and
barring
> > differences.
> > %
> > The question then (implied by Martyn) is what AB may have gained
or
> > lost in choosing a lute which might seem more suitable for late
German
> > Baroque.
> > AB mentions the elegeance and economy in the music, and it is
possible
> > that this also extended to the playing position and thus the
length of
> > the lute chosen, as seen in the rather nonchalant confortable
elegant
> > style of Charles Mouton:
> > <[5]http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd>[6]http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd
> > However, AB does have very long fingers, and seems to have very
little
> > problem in playing with such string lengths:
> > <[7]http://tinyurl.com/77x475k>[8]http://tinyurl.com/77x475k
> > Although the two do indeed look very different (and possibly, as
Martyn
> > says, the second might have been incongruous to a French
audience of
> > the time).
> > %
> > Soundwise, and this could be more important, we might have
expected the
> > 276 year old Wenger to have lost a little in the mid register
(as
> > compared to the 80 to 100 year old 68 cm lutes that the French
were
> > seeking out), and with perhaps more bass presence, due to the
76cm
> > loaded basses: the French with their smaller lutes, may rather
have
> > been exploring the mid range, at the expense of these frequency
> > extremes.
> > Only listening to AB playing French music with this lute can
confirm or
> > infirm, whether this is indeed the case.
> > Unfortunateley, MP3 and recording equipment may not be up to the
job of
> > discriminating this (can we be sure that we are not hearing the
mics,
> > the room acoustics rather than differences in lutes).
> > But here is a recording of a modern 67cm Warwick Frei (415)
strung in a
> > not too different way, from the Wenger, with loaded basses and
Nick
> > Baldock Meanes and trebles.
> >
<[9]http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3>[10]http://luthiste.com/do
wnloads/Mouton.mp3
> > and here is an extract from Une Douceur violente, AB on the
Wengere
> > lute (375, loaded Basses, Larson Meanes, Baldock Trebles):
> > Seventeenth-century French lute music
> >
[1]<[11]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3>[12]http://
www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
> > %
> > Personally, trying only to concentrate on the tonal differences,
and
> > abstracting from player's style, as well as recording level and
415/370
> > pitch (an almost impossible task?) I enjoy both, and I do hear a
great
> > deal of "presence" in the case of the old lute (with no obvious
mid
> > lack), but with exactly the slightly veiled (slightly nasal?)
quality,
> > which AB claims obliges him to play well back near the bridge
with old
> > lutes; this is my reaction, but I am not a musicologist,
specialist in
> > french baroque music.
> > Just to compare, here is the 69cm Rauwolf (with some gimped
basses and
> > some first generation loaded) but playing Weiss:
> >
<[13]http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3>[14]http://www.musicaman
o.com/music/weiss.mp3
> > I do find the Rauwolf more "agile" (which might be important for
the
> > French repertoire) and a little less veiled and nasal; and this
could
> > indeed be something to do with the difference of string length,
or just
> > relating to the recording differences.
> > %
> > Finally an extract from "Old Gautiers Nightinghall" with AB
playing on
> > a modern 12c lute, by Paul Thomson (stringing?):
> >
<[15]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3>[16]http://www
.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3
> > The sound to me, here, is more bright (due to the pitch?), but
with
> > less depth; however, this is not the same tuning (or stringing),
and
> > the recording is more reverberant.
> > $
> > In conclusion, Martyn is right, I don't think we should advocate
> > performing French lute music with non-j-barred, 76cm lutes, and
I
> > understand his "mise en garde" to that effect (would any one,
including
> > AB, order the Wengerer model from their lutemaker for the French
> > repertoire? I would doubt it; while I for one did hesitate about
> > ordering a 69cm Rauwolf, before going for a 70cm Warwick); but I
have
> > enjoyed the sound of the short extract from Une Douceur
violente, in
> > spite of any doubts I might have had.
> > That is of course just a personal reaction from a non
specialist,
> > addicted to AB's old LP.
> > Regards
> > Anthony
> > ________________________________
> > De : Edward Martin
<[2]<mailto:[17]e...@gamutstrings.com>[18]e...@gamutstrings.com>
> > A :
[3]<mailto:[19]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>[20]baroque-lute@cs.dartmo
uth.edu
> > Envoye le : Vendredi 16 mars 2012 3h50
> > Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne Anthony Bailes CD
> > Dear Ones,
> > For those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French
baroque
> > lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee
> > label. it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente", and it contains
works
> > of Mouton and Gallot. He recorded this program on his authentic
lute
> > by Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722. The catalog number
is
> > RAM 1104, and it is available in the USA, in usual outlets.
> > This is an announcement, not a review. The instrument is a
large
> > one, and the pitch is consequently quite low, at a70, in essence
> > making it in a b-minor tuning. Beautiful sound and playing,
highly
> > recommended.
> > ed
> > Edward Martin
> > 2817 East 2nd Street
> > Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> > e-mail:
[4]<mailto:[21]e...@gamutstrings.com>[22]e...@gamutstrings.com
> > voice: (218) 728-1202
> >
[5]<[23]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name>[24]htt
p://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
> >
[6]<[25]http://www.myspace.com/edslute>[26]http://www.myspace.com/edslu
te
> >
[7]<[27]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin>[28]http://magnatune
.com/artists/edward_martin
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[8]<[29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html>[30]ht
tp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
<[31]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3>[32]http://www
.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
> > 2. mailto:[33]e...@gamutstrings.com
> > 3. mailto:[34]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > 4. mailto:[35]e...@gamutstrings.com
> > 5.
<[36]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name>[37]http:/
/www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
> > 6. [38]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
> > 7.
<[39]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin>[40]http://magnatune.co
m/artists/edward_martin
> > 8. [41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> e-mail: <mailto:[42]e...@gamutstrings.com>[43]e...@gamutstrings.com
> voice: (218) 728-1202
>
<[44]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name>[45]http:/
/www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
> [46]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>
<[47]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin>[48]http://magnatune.co
m/artists/edward_martin
>
>
>
Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota 55812
e-mail: [49]e...@gamutstrings.com
voice: (218) 728-1202
[50]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
[51]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[52]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
--
References
1. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
2. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
3. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd
6. http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd
7. http://tinyurl.com/77x475k
8. http://tinyurl.com/77x475k
9. http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3
10. http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3
11. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
12. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
13. http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3
14. http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3
15. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3
16. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3
17. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
18. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
19. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
20. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
21. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
22. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
23. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
24. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
25. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
26. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
27. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
28. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
31. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
32. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3
33. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
34. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
35. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
36. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
37. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
38. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
39. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
40. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
41. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
42. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
43. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
44. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
45. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
46. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
47. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
48. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
49. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com
50. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name
51. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
52. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
