Dear Martyn My impression is that in the more usual case, "freak" historical lutes and theorbos are frequently adopted to accomodate the modern playing context: e.g. using higher pitches than historic for the type of instrument if strung in gut (typically for tuning to an orchestra or to a singer), a shorter instruments than historic (particularly for theorbos), again only possible with synthetic stringing; and in both cases to make life easier for the lutenist (and in the extreme case single strings on a liuto forte). At least Anthony Bailes with this 76cm lute (and gut stringing), can't be accused of having made his playing easier.
About the RH position close to the bridge, this (according to the Lute new's report on his talk), is indeed one of the reasons for AB choosing an old lute. Although he is the only one to suggest this, he did say that, in his experience, such lutes had good sustain but were also somewhat veiled in sound which automatically called for a position near the bridge; the "popularity" of such lutes, he thought, might have contributed to this change to RH position near the bridge. (I quote, here, from memory, as this morning, I can't find my copy of the Lute News in question). However, as I said above, I am neither a lute maker nor a musicologist, although I do feel fairly sure that no one (including AB) would have ordered a 76cm from a lute maker in order to play this music; the string length, I therefore have to conclude, as you do, is not the French Baroque ideal. Although AB is a model for many, I doubt whether his example will be followed; but you have given far more thought to this issue than I have, so I will have to leave you the last word on this historical question, and bow to your judgement. I would nevertheless, just like to add that I so wish it was sufficient to have a suitable lute, good strings, and correct RH position to be able to interpret French Baroque lute music, but as Mathias rightly says, French music is "too tricky", although in my case I feel it worth a try. Regards Anthony ________________________________ De : Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> À : Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> Cc : "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Envoyé le : Mardi 20 mars 2012 15h06 Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, Thank you for this. In essence all I'm suggesting is that we should look at the evidence of what size and sort (eg barring) of instrument was used for a particular repertoire and then see what sounds result, rather than starting from the sort of sound we personally like and then choosing the instrument which makes this sound. Clearly the first has the possibility of getting somewhere near what the original composers might have expected and their audiences heard; but the second merely reflects our own prejudices/pre-delictions/wishful-thinking of the sort of sound we, as individuals, would like to hear. The matter is particularly pointed if the specification of the instrument we come up with for performing a particular repertoire was unknown to players at the time. This doesn't just apply to Anthony Bailes of course but to any player with pretensions to perform works in a manner reasonably close to what the original composer might have expected. Regarding putting 'sustain' as the feature most to be sought in this repertoire is, of course, simply a prejudice (prejudgement) - it might be any feature (eg softness, loudness, ability to articulate, lack of sustain etc....). As said, we ought to try and secure an instrument as close as possible to what the actual historic evidence indicates and base our experiments on this. I also suggest, if we wish to be rigorous about this search, we should eschew other anachronistic techniques - such as plucking away from the bridge and up to the rose which has at least as big an influence on the tone produced as almost any other factor. Your links (email 16 March) to pictures comparing Mouton and a modern 11 course player is particular telling: not only in the right hand position and its plucking posture but also how the instrument is held - low down cradled in the lap, not high up resting on the right thigh as Mouton (and other contemporary depictions). Finally, I'm all for experiment if it is presented as such: it's when this might be seem to be an accurate reflection of what the Old Ones actually did that I worry. regards Martyn --- On Tue, 20/3/12, Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: >From: Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne >Anthony Bailes CD >To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >Cc: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Date: Tuesday, 20 March, 2012, 12:52 > > >Dear Martyn > I must appologize for not having seen your message; I actually wrote a >subpart to my mail to Ed (on sustain, clarity and with modern hard thin >tables) which was a note to you, and saying something not completely unlike >what you say here; but then I removed it, as it was very tentative, a little >confused, and not really addressed to Ed (although the subject still relates >to sustain in French baroque lute music). I then had to respond to another >mail, and I forgot to make the note to you. I will just add it here, almost as >I initially wrote it: > > >I should perhaps add (in Ed's message) a few words as second thoughts, here , >more as questions to Martyn, relating to Anthony Baile's experimenting with >sustain for French Baroque lute music. I don't think it has always been >considered that the French lutenists research for old Bologna lutes was >necessarilly a search for lutes having BOTH sustain and clarity; I remember several lute makers advising me that the best quality for a French lute would be speed and clarity (I believe they were simply considering sound differences between rounder multi-ribbed Paduan shape and the Bologna almond shape on modern lutes, rather than the age question). The idea possibly being that the speed and clarity of the shallower Bologna shape might help counteract the increased sympathetic resonances due to the new tunings (thus perhaps reducing overhang, a "bad" form of sustain). > >However, an alternative and opposing hypothesis (possibly adopted by AB) might >be that the greater age of the Bologna lutes, as well as the reduction in the >ammount of paper and glue (Burwell) giving less impedance, would all combine >to better allow the French musicians to profit from the sympathetic resonances >due to their tunings increasing sustain. (I am not forgetting that a number of French lutenists (Pinel?) may have actually preferred the rounder sound of Paduan lutes) >% >Better sustain with clarity, I believe would also have been achieved if they >were using low impedance high tension stringing, which theoreticians of this >school also suppose French musicians had done (supposition disputed by tenants >of the low tension theory). >Further more, Jacob Heringman told me that, in his opinion, long string >lengths also permit greater expressivity (which perhaps is both related to >depth of sound, but also sustain). >% >If all three factors lead to more sustain, we can notice that in his choice of >stringing and lute, AB has gone for maximum possible sustain with clarity: an >old lute, with loaded basses, and a very long string length. >(I may be quite wrong with all the preceding, I am not a lute maker, nor a >musicologist, so please consider this as a formulated question). >% >However, along with Martyn (if the preceding is correct), we might ask ourselves, why, if sustain were the only quality the French musicians were seeking, did they not seek out lutes suitable for longer extensions. Extant French lutes do seem to be around 68cm (+/-2cm). In other words, AB's combination of old lute, low impedance stringing, and long string length could perhaps be too much of a good thing. >This just a further thought which takes nothing away from the pleasure AB is >both giving himself and, us, his listeners, while playing this lute. >% >Just another thought, however, a modern 68cm Bologna lute may not have the >sustain of a vintage Bologna lute; unless as Dan Larson has done, a very hard >Sitka or Adirondack spruce top has been used, which although perhaps not a >historical tone wood, might be closer to the hardness of those vintage bologna >tables (or possibly the top has been given a special Borax or oxidyzed linseed >treatment). Stephen Gottlieb, did tell me that it is no longer possible to cut a table as thinly as on some historic lutes, as the spruce is no longer hard enough. Thus if AB's lute may perhaps have a little too much sustain than historic, perhaps most modern Bologna lutes do not have enough. >% >That was the end of my message, which I feel is not completely different from >some of the ideas in yours. >I did not mention the pitch issue. I rather suppose that if the French >lutenists had 68cm lutes, they may have used a frequency closer to 415Hz. >Personally, I am using 392Hz on a 70cm Warwick Frei; however, I don't know >what evidence we might have for the preferred pitch, except for the preferred >lute sizes. > >There is also the barring question you mention, which is definitely relevant, >but if I understand correctly, Jakob's Rauwolf has fan barring, should we also >consider that not appropriate for French music? >There is the issue of stringing, and how acceptable different modern strings (gut synthetics, wire-wounds) might be from a historic point of view, but this is an issue often spoken of here, and possibly can be treated separately from the historic lute question. >% > >Please excuse the rather confused message, but I did not want to take even >longer by spending more time on it. >Regards >Anthony > > > > > > > > >________________________________ >De : Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> >À : "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Anthony >Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >Envoyé le : Dimanche 18 mars 2012 9h52 >Objet : Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne >Anthony Bailes CD > > >Dear Anthony, > >I agree with most of what you write below. There is, however, one >elephant-in-the-room issue which, I think, goes to the heart of the matter, >viz: how much our individual pre-judgements/prejudices may influence our >choices in spite of the evidence. > >A particular, and well documented, issue is that of using historically >unlikely instruments to satisfy our own prejudices (or wishful thinking) of >what the music ought to sound like. This exerts a great (often >sub-conscious?) influence over the instrument on which we choose to play a >particular repertoire - and can lead to using a type of instrument for a >certain repertoire (say mid/late 17th century French lute music) which was unknown to players at the time. > >Go back a modern generation or perhaps two and early keyboard music was >generally played on the piano and, on those rare occasions when a pianist felt >obliged to justify themselves, the reason given was generally either simply 'I >prefer it this way because there's more sustain/volume/response/ etc' and/or >'JS Bach (or AN Other) would have chosen a modern instrument if they had been >around at the time'. Both are pure assertion of course with no relation to >the actual evidence of the type of instrument, and thus the sound, the >original composers had in mind and what their contemporary auditors might >reasonably expect to hear. > >Thus, on the lute, some modern tastes may seek a low pitched sound as being >somehow more suited to the music (eg 'capable of sustain' etc) even where >this flies in the face of historical evidence. Surely we should look at the evidence first and then use the instrument which best fits such an analysis. How else are we to properly serve the composer's intentions? > >regards > >Martyn > > >--- On Fri, 16/3/12, Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>From: Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com> >>Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD >>To: "baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>Date: Friday, 16 March, 2012, 15:07 >> >> >> Dear All >> Anthony Bailes LP recording of 'Pieces de luth'; EMI REFLEXE; >> IC 06330938, was my introduction to French baroque lute music. >> After that I was hooked. >> I have enjoyed his recent CDs (although I had not yet heard this, his >> most recent one), but regret that the recordings (in particular "Old >> Gautiers Nightinghall") do seem to have become a little more >> reverberant, which may take away somewhat from his recent excellent >> string choices on the Wengerer: Nick Baldock trebles, Dan Larson, Lyons >> Meanes, and Mimmo Peruffo loaded basses (although, I imagine that with >> this 76cm lute pure gut basses should also work well). AB seems to be >> one >of the few pioneers still experimenting seriously in gut stringing. >> % >> Indeed, Anthony B. has always had an experimental atttitude to historic >> research. In his excellent article for Lute News 85, April 2008, he >> said, of the old Bologna lutes so sought after by the French, that >> Trichet tells us "French lute players were looking for instruments >> which were very resonant, and capable of sustain"; and he goes on to >> tell us of his experience of playing old lutes, "The last, and most >> important point is that notes on such instruments have more sustain >> coupled with a more gradual and even decay to the sound. This is >> particularly important as it can give the impression that a note sounds >> on longer than it actually >does." >> In his Gaultier recordings, AB considers this so necessary to his >> interpretation of this music that he appears willing to sacrifice ideal >> string length (and possibly barring), adopting the 76cm historic Wenger >> lute, just for the greater sustain this vintage lute affords. >> % >> Jakob Lindberg seems to confirm AB's experience, claiming two almost >> contradictory characteristics for his Rauwolf: "this has exactly what I >> want. It has that clarity but also sustain, which is amazing". >> % >> It seems to be the function of this quality that AB is seeking to study >> with his recent recordings, at the expense of any characteristic >> specifically associated with more usual string lengths of around 68 >cm >> (as correctly suggested by Martyn). Of course one might have preferred >> AB to have discovered another 69.5 cm Rauwolf, Greiff (or whatever), >> but no doubt he had to settle for the Wenger, or possibly chose it to >> isolate what this could bring, in spite of string length and barring >> differences. >> % >> The question then (implied by Martyn) is what AB may have gained or >> lost in choosing a lute which might seem more suitable for late German >> Baroque. >> AB mentions the elegeance and economy in the music, and it is possible >> that this also extended to the playing position and thus the length of >> the lute chosen, as seen in the rather nonchalant confortable elegant >> style of Charles >Mouton: >> http://tinyurl.com/39r6xvd >> However, AB does have very long fingers, and seems to have very little >> problem in playing with such string lengths: >> http://tinyurl.com/77x475k >> Although the two do indeed look very different (and possibly, as Martyn >> says, the second might have been incongruous to a French audience of >> the time). >> % >> Soundwise, and this could be more important, we might have expected the >> 276 year old Wenger to have lost a little in the mid register (as >> compared to the 80 to 100 year old 68 cm lutes that the French were >> seeking out), and with perhaps more bass >presence, due to the 76cm >> loaded basses: the French with their smaller lutes, may rather have >> been exploring the mid range, at the expense of these frequency >> extremes. >> Only listening to AB playing French music with this lute can confirm or >> infirm, whether this is indeed the case. >> Unfortunateley, MP3 and recording equipment may not be up to the job of >> discriminating this (can we be sure that we are not hearing the mics, >> the room acoustics rather than differences in lutes). >> But here is a recording of a modern 67cm Warwick Frei (415) strung in a >> not too different way, from the Wenger, with loaded basses and Nick >> Baldock Meanes and trebles. >> http://luthiste.com/downloads/Mouton.mp3 >> and here is an extract from Une Douceur violente, AB on the Wengere >> lute (375, loaded Basses, Larson Meanes, Baldock Trebles): >> Seventeenth-century French lute music >> [1]http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3 >> % >> Personally, trying only to concentrate on the tonal differences, and >> abstracting from player's style, as well as recording level and 415/370 >> pitch (an almost impossible task?) I enjoy both, and I do hear a great >> deal of "presence" in the case of the old lute (with no obvious mid >> lack), but with exactly the slightly veiled (slightly nasal?) quality, >> which AB >claims obliges him to play well back near the bridge with old >> lutes; this is my reaction, but I am not a musicologist, specialist in >> french baroque music. >> Just to compare, here is the 69cm Rauwolf (with some gimped basses and >> some first generation loaded) but playing Weiss: >> http://www.musicamano.com/music/weiss.mp3 >> I do find the Rauwolf more "agile" (which might be important for the >> French repertoire) and a little less veiled and nasal; and this could >> indeed be something to do with the difference of string length, or just >> relating to the recording differences. >> % >> Finally an extract from "Old Gautiers Nightinghall" with AB playing >on >> a modern 12c lute, by Paul Thomson (stringing?): >> http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/0707/0707_01.MP3 >> The sound to me, here, is more bright (due to the pitch?), but with >> less depth; however, this is not the same tuning (or stringing), and >> the recording is more reverberant. >> $ >> In conclusion, Martyn is right, I don't think we should advocate >> performing French lute music with non-j-barred, 76cm lutes, and I >> understand his "mise en garde" to that effect (would any one, including >> AB, order the Wengerer model from their lutemaker for the French >> repertoire? I would doubt it; while I for one did hesitate about >> ordering a >69cm Rauwolf, before going for a 70cm Warwick); but I have >> enjoyed the sound of the short extract from Une Douceur violente, in >> spite of any doubts I might have had. >> That is of course just a personal reaction from a non specialist, >> addicted to AB's old LP. >> Regards >> Anthony >> ________________________________ >> De : Edward Martin <[2]e...@gamutstrings.com> >> A : [3]baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Envoye le : Vendredi 16 mars 2012 3h50 >> Objet : [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ne Anthony Bailes CD >> Dear >Ones, >> For those on the list who enjoy well played 11-course French baroque >> lute, there is a new release by Abthony Bailes, on the Ramee >> label. it is entitled, 'Une Douceur violente", and it contains works >> of Mouton and Gallot. He recorded this program on his authentic lute >> by Georgi Ferdinand Wenger, Augsburg, 1722. The catalog number is >> RAM 1104, and it is available in the USA, in usual outlets. >> This is an announcement, not a review. The instrument is a large >> one, and the pitch is consequently quite low, at a70, in essence >> making it in a b-minor tuning. Beautiful sound and playing, highly >> recommended. >> ed >> Edward Martin >> 2817 East 2nd >Street >> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >> e-mail: [4]e...@gamutstrings.com >> voice: (218) 728-1202 >> [5]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name >> [6]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >> [7]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >>References >> >> 1. http://www.ramee.org/extraitsramee/1104/1104-01.mp3 >> 2. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com >> 3. mailto:baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 4. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com >> 5. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name >> 6. http://www.myspace.com/edslute >> 7. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin >> 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > >
