Hi Ray,
deleting the users data without their consent
isn't OK, has never been OK, will never be OK,
Fully agree with that.
The list of critical issues is way too long. But this deserves top
priority for fixing.
-Ton-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ton Roosendaal - t...@blender.org - www.blender.org
Chairman Blender Foundation, CEO Blender Institute / Studio
Buikslotermeerplein 161, 1025 ET Amsterdam, the Netherlands
On 12/05/2022 22:17, Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers wrote:
I don't think there's any disagreement between me and bastien
we both agree it's a problem that just isn't getting the
attention it deserves. The disagreement is with the people who
set the priorities.
Most of the priories are seemingly set by the needs of the
blender studio, they have learned a long long time ago, how
to "not lose data" to the point it has seemingly become a
out of sight out of heart style problem.
My somewhat cheeky prod on the mailing list was meant as
a reminder, deleting the users data without their consent
isn't OK, has never been OK, will never be OK, and we should
be fixing it rather than waving it away going "it's fiiine,
work on this instead" it's very much not "fine"
--Ray
On 2022-05-10 2:12 p.m., Zack Brown via Bf-committers wrote:
Hi,
I'm also curious about this issue. It seems like Ray is giving one side of
the argument, but I'm not clear on the other side. This can't simply be a
debate between one group that is in favor of destroying user data, and
another group that opposes it.
Looking at the developer task, it seems like one concern is that any
solution to the problem would need to take account of workflow issues, so
that production workflows won't be slowed down. I'd like to hear an example
of a production workflow that relies on blender's current behavior, and how
it might be slowed down if the data were simply not deleted instead.
There definitely seems to be something to what Ray says, about saving users
from a data-loss baptism of fire. And there also seems to be something to
what Bastien says, about various big projects that currently have a higher
priority than fixing a standard blender behavior that has always been this
way. I know there are a lot of features I eagerly look forward to, more
than fixes for some of the known misfeatures. But I also know that I got
bit by the inexplicable data-loss issue myself at first, and it was a pain
in the butt.
Could someone take a stab at explaining what this debate really is about,
in such a way that both sides would feel fairly represented? All I know
right now is that there's a disagreement about something that currently
feels over my head.
Be well,
Zack
On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 9:05 PM Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers <
bf-committers@blender.org> wrote:
That task is over 3 years old though, it mostly reconfirms
the notion that the people who set the priorities just
don't see silently destroying end user data being a problem.
I hope this short thread serves as a wake-up call and this
and the other core improvements you mentioned will be made
more of a priority and time will actually be allocated for
it in the next release cycle.
But I'm not getting my hopes up here.
--Ray
On 2022-05-10 12:54 a.m., Bastien Montagne via Bf-committers wrote:
Hi Ray,
We already have a task to address this issue:
https://developer.blender.org/T61209
But this needs time to be properly handled, and these days we spend
everything besides regular maintenance on 'big projects', so... this one
and several other relatively small core improvements and fixes keep being
delayed from one release to the other.
-- Bastien
On 5/9/22 21:12, Ray Molenkamp via Bf-committers wrote:
All,
It's been years [1] (2018) since I last was rather
vocal on this subject, but how is this [2] still
happening? "Yes, blender deleted your data (and silently
at that), that means it's working correctly!" cannot
possibly be the best we can do, is it?
While I'm excited with all the directions blender
development is currently going, it's utterly depressing that
users are still losing data on a daily basis because
we can't quite get the basics right like "do not delete the
users data without their consent".
These are *NOT* isolated incidents [3]. Losing your
data and learning about "the fake user" shouldn't be
a right of passage to become "a real blender user".
Users shouldn't be silently *losing* data in an operation
ironically called *saving*. That's crazy, no other
application behaves like this!
Yes, I know this is how we have always done it. No,
this is not OK, never was.
Ton: Please make protecting the user’s data a
priority, as it doesn’t seem this will happen otherwise.
--Ray
[1]https://devtalk.blender.org/t/oh-no/505/2
[2]https://developer.blender.org/T97968
[3]https://devtalk.blender.org/t/more/22715
_______________________________________________
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
List details, subscription details or unsubscribe:
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
_______________________________________________
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
List details, subscription details or unsubscribe:
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
_______________________________________________
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
List details, subscription details or unsubscribe:
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
_______________________________________________
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
List details, subscription details or unsubscribe:
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
_______________________________________________
Bf-committers mailing list
Bf-committers@blender.org
List details, subscription details or unsubscribe:
https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
