--- Martin Malmkvist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hey Jan
> Just a humble note to your dialogue about justice in our most esteemed
> nations.
> By the way: Congratulations on creating the most successful headline on
> this
> list yet :) I changed mine for the sake of variation.
>
> The law-stuff:
>
> 1.
> - It is a fact that no innocent person has recieved capital punishment in
> Denmark (or the Netherlands I believe to be able to guarantee) for at least
> the last 100 years.
>
> - However as the below source suggests, the same cannot be said about the
> US:
> "... Opponents of capital punishment also argue that the finality of
> capital
> punishment does not allow for the correction of error should a person be
> falsely convicted. In In Spite of Innocence: Erroneous Convictions in
> Capital Cases, Michael Radelet, Hugo Adam Bedau, and Constance Putnam
> studied hundreds of cases where there is some indication of an erroneous
> conviction. They found evidence that at least 400 persons have been falsely
> convicted of murder (Radelet 271). Of these cases, 23 were executed
> (Radelet
> 272-3), and another 27 were saved at the last moment, sometimes minutes
> before the scheduled execution (Radelet 275-6). ..."
> Note that no time-frame has been stated on this homepage (this problem may
> be remedied by looking up the homepage's source).
> Its interesting to notice that although many more innocents may have been
> falsely convicted in DK or NL, none have had to die for the court's
> mistake.
> The same does not apply for at least 23 US-citizens.
> Which of the two cases are worse?
> Source: http://www.globaldialog.com/~theoacme/cappun2.html
We have an extensivly exaustive appeals process when it comes to the ultimate
punishment. I don't beleive that these are representative of the recent past.
That siad, capital punishment is not done in every state. That is part of the
whole federal thing. Some states have it, others do not. Opinons about
capital punnishment vary, but if you are that much against it you can either
vote that way, or move to a state that doesn't do it.
> 2. The fact that there is actually a prize awarded in the US for the most
> rediculous lawsuit (and ensuing conviction - if that's the proper word
> here)
I think that is generaly civil suits. And YES our CIVIL system is WHACK! so I
won't defend it at all. That said, I know of no civil system that isn't
(IMO).
>- which was actually highlighted on this list about a month ago,
> serves to seriously undermine the statement that a jury of 12 unqualified
> people are more likely to reach the right conclusion in a case.
> I realise, though, that this argument may be countered since similar cases
> may be found in either of the two european countries. Its just that over
> here such cases are more of exceptions to the norm, whereas it seems to
> have
> become a bit of a phenomenon in the US. Please correct me on this if I'm
> wrong :) My primary way of learning of the US is TV (and this list).
Things on TV are nothing like reality. Even when they are "reality". They are
of course exceptions to the norm. Only here for some reason we make a big
deal out of exceptions to the norm. Gerneraly this leads to changes and so
it's a good thing, but it also makes it look like it is all that happens to
those who don't live here and experience normal reality enough to recognize
these things as an anomoly. Gernealy, there would not be as much
intertainment value to it if it were not, so it wouldn't end up on TV. No one
would watch -normal-. Now, this may say something about Americans, and it
-is- a common complaint many of us have about our own country.
> 3. Jan (I think) stated at one time that the European model might suffer
> from the fact that judges and lawyers have "seen it all".
> I must admit that this sometimes seems to be true (and this is where I'll
> veer from objectivity and provide an example from my experience).
> In one case a person I know had her door kicked in by her ex-boyfriend,
> who,
> in front of numerous witnesses, dragged her outside by her hair and smashed
> her face completely up.
> I went to see the trial to satisfy my need for justice and found that it
> was
> actually three trials compiled into one.
> For forcing his way into the victims apartment, assaulting her, drunk
> driving, fleeing the scene after ramming another car under the influence of
> alcohol, beating up three guys who decided to follow him and attacking a
> police officer and his dog, this guy was sentenced to four (4!) months of
> prison and has his driver's license removed for 10 years (an extension of a
> similiar 3-year sentence, he already had).
> Now, that's rediculous. It wasn't even the first time he was in court. I
> was
> outraged. He should have been put away for at least four years.
We have simmilar issues of course. A Jurry may be made up of mostly a
homogeneous group and the person on trial may not fit that "mold". Therefore
they may be found guilty when they are not, or found guilty when they are,
but the law does not meat our constitutional and cultural desire for freedom.
One such case involves 2 men acused of a closeness the law said was iligal.
It went all the way to the supreem court, and it was found to be
unconstitutional. There were may imprisoned who were, just yesturday released
becouse their "crime" was determined to not be a valid "crime".
Sure it took a long time, and some people were imprisoned unjustly, but the
system it'self worked. The judicial branch stoped the law making branch and
the executive (law inforcing) branch from doing something that impinged on
personal freedom. This is exactly the kind of check and balance that an ICC
does not have, and exactly why we fear such a thing.
We can see first hand how our system saves us from tyrany. We would not
accept one that did not at least have these features.
It may be that ~some~ european law making bodies would not make such a thing
illegal, but what other issues would arise. Especialy when the system in
international.
=====
_________________________________________________
Jan William Coffey
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