Le dimanche 21 janvier 2007 19:02, Don Dailey a écrit : > On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 13:34 -0200, Mark Boon wrote: > > To move > > up 200 ELO points in Go is usually not achieved by looking at more > > positions but by acquiring new concepts. To acquire a new concept in > > just a few hours is a rare thing. Some of these concepts would maybe > > take years to acquire if there wasn't someone to teach it to them. > > And you can gain new insights or concepts in a single > short study period.
Study with books or teacher can lead to quick improvement. But alone more time can be useless, one just don't see the correct thing. Historically, Dosaku "discovered" overconcentration strategy, but it needed 150 years to find a global counter strategy (the "Shusaku kosumi"). The few games i played against mogobot on 19x19 shows that it does not "know" overconcentration. And i can safely bet that increasing thinking time will not solve this, and computer cannot reach amateur 1d without this "concept" (either explicit or implicit in large patterns like Mango) > > The example you gave about studying a position for two hours and then > > showing it to someone 600 ELO points stronger. I think in Go someone > > who is 600 ELO points stronger can let the other player think about > > every move for a whole day and still beat him using on average just > > 10-20 sec. per move. It doesn't scale the way it does with Chess. > > I don't believe this at all. You should ;) > But it's difficult to argue about it > since it is extremely difficult to construct a fair experiment in this > regard. Just play a game, analyse it carefully with all the books and internet, try to find the mistakes, and after ask a strong dan to comment the game ! He will instantaneoulsy tell you nice things, very clearly, but you just have not seen that. Also, we should keep in mind that amateur in go are just hmm amateur, and they don't master the game, maybe not even the basis. Maybe strong dan can efficiently analyse their own games, but for kyus even with very long time, nothing very good will show up, kyu are limited by their knowledge and poor reading. And programs on 19x19 are weak kyus. > But I continue to be amazed that so many people think GO > cannot be approached in a methodical logical way or that the human > mind cannot break it down with the application of time and effort. I am amazed that people think human can do anything ;) we are not gods, we are just humans :) (this is off-topic phylosophy, and not a troll) > > By the way, can I assume that in world champion GO matches they use > fast time controls because long time controls don't help in Go? Important tournament have long thinking time, and need 2 days like in chess. In such games, sometimes one player spend 1 hour on one move... But they are pros, and maybe some other reasons (financial, tv ...) can explain why some tournaments are reducing the time from 8h each to 3h. Alain _______________________________________________ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
