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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Butterflies
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Re: Small translation exercise
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3. Re: Butterflies
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4. Re: Butterflies
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5. Re: Butterflies
From: Mia Soderquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6. Re: Small translation exercise
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7. Butterflies
From: Raivo Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8. Re: Butterflies
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9. Re: Small translation exercise
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10. Re: Butterflies
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11. Re: : Butterflies
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12. Re: Butterflies
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13. Re: : Butterflies
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14. Re: RFC: New CXS symbol needed.
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15. Re: Butterflies
From: mike poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16. OT: Good bye for now
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17. Re: Unsupervised learning of natural languages
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18. Re: RFC: New CXS symbol needed.
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19. Re: New member with a few questions.
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20. Re: Butterflies
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21. Re: RFC: New CXS symbol needed.
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22. Re: CHAT Almost well-formed southern ape (wasRe: Teknonyms)
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23. Re: Butterflies
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24. Re: Unsupervised learning of natural languages
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25. Re: Unsupervised learning of natural languages
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:53:10 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Butterflies
* Raivo Seppo said on 2005-11-03 15:21:04 +0100
> A newcomer in the list proposes to extend the theme: what are the
> roots/words semantically connected to the term ?butterfly`or is the term an
> independent one? It?s quite obvious in English (butter-fly, OE butorfleoge)
> or, perhaps, in Estonian - ?liblikas? is derived from ?lible`(a
> grass-blade). As I remember, Greek ?psyche?also referred to the insect,
> being appositely animistic in that connection.
See the other thread of the same name. "Butterfly" is a weird creature
since most languages have their very own term for it, often purely
sound-mimicing too. Might be a bad word to analyse semantically.
t.
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 15:50:23 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Small translation exercise
* Mark J. Reed said on 2005-11-03 15:24:04 +0100
>
> On 11/3/05, taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > The fog comes
> > on little cat feet.
> > It sits looking
> > over harbor and city
> > on silent haunches
> > and then moves on.
> >
> > I had never seen this poem before
>
> Shocking! What allegedly-educational system let you pass through
> without exposing you to Sandburg? We'll form a lynch mob at once!
> Next you'll say that you didn't read any cummings, or Dickinson, or
> Tennyson, or Wordsworth, or . . .
I'm not a WASP and I do not have English on the university-level, only
high school. I've read Dickinson on my own though. (And Shakespeare,
love the sonnets...)
I have read large parts of the Eddas, Håvamål, Voluspå, Ibsen, Bjørnson,
a bit of Kielland and Lie, lots of sagas, a bit of Strindberg etc. etc.
It's getting colder here again (very weird fall so far, too hot), so the
following is appropriate:
Eldz er þa/rf
þeims inn er kominn
oc a kne kalinn;
matar oc vaða
er manne þa/rf
þeim er hefir vm fiall fariþ.
Learnt this 'un first in grade school, though in a rather more modern
version. Anyway, the entirety of Håvamål would be a useful
translation-exercise, as there are mostly high-frequent words one needs
translations for anyway in it.
t., who haven't really read much Norwegian since high school :/
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:11:57 +0100
From: taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Butterflies
* Raivo Seppo said on 2005-11-03 15:21:04 +0100
> A newcomer in the list proposes to extend the theme: what are the
> roots/words semantically connected to the term ?butterfly`or is the term an
> independent one? It?s quite obvious in English (butter-fly, OE butorfleoge)
> or, perhaps, in Estonian - ?liblikas? is derived from ?lible`(a
> grass-blade). As I remember, Greek ?psyche?also referred to the insect,
> being appositely animistic in that connection.
Writing mail in a hurry isn't always wise...
Hi Raivo and welcome to the list! I take it you are or know Finnish?
What I *meant* to say in the last mail was that butterfly is a weird
special case and that it is more fruitful to look at the sounds of it
and its ilk in other languages. Why does three syllables dominate for
instance, how many languages uses reduplication in this case etc.
*counting* fifth mail today, I guess no more replies until tomorrow...
t.
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 00:24:58 +0900
From: Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Butterflies
(GMail warning)
On 11/4/05, taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> What I *meant* to say in the last mail was that butterfly is a weird
> special case and that it is more fruitful to look at the sounds of it
> and its ilk in other languages. Why does three syllables dominate for
> instance, how many languages uses reduplication in this case etc.
Three syllables? Quenya has _wilwarin_, which fits the pattern.
Seo Sanghyeon
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 10:26:11 -0500
From: Mia Soderquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Butterflies
On 11/3/05, Raivo Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> A newcomer in the list proposes to extend the theme: what are the
> roots/words semantically connected to the term ´butterfly`or is the term
> an
> independent one? It´s quite obvious in English (butter-fly, OE
> butorfleoge)
> or, perhaps, in Estonian - ´liblikas´ is derived from ´lible`(a
> grass-blade). As I remember, Greek ´psyche´also referred to the insect,
> being appositely animistic in that connection.
>
Well, that's easy enough in the case of ea-luna. It's an independent word.
"Moth" is "ewipewe", a 'nightbutterfly', on the other hand.
The root vocabulary of ea-luna contains a good number of words that probably
should be related to or derived from others, but aren't. Ah, well. It does
what it was designed to do. It makes me happy. I just wish my newer projects
made me as happy.
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:23:45 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Small translation exercise
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>>On 11/3/05, taliesin the storyteller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> The fog comes
>> on little cat feet.
>> It sits looking
>> over harbor and city
>> on silent haunches
>> and then moves on.
>>
>> I had never seen this poem before
>Shocking! What allegedly-educational system let you pass through
>without exposing you to Sandburg? We'll form a lynch mob at once!
>Next you'll say that you didn't read any cummings, or Dickinson, or
>Tennyson, or Wordsworth, or . . .
...perish the thought, Shakespeare. I'm always nonplused when
someone tells me that he is an English major, but never studied
Shakespeare.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:34:18 +0200
From: Raivo Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Butterflies
to Taliesin
I´m Estonian with some other extraction, but I know Finnish.
Natlang words for butterfly seem mostly onomatopoetic or compound - I found
Yoruba labalaba in your list and can juxtapose it to a Livonian word
libalaba (a nearly extinct language in Latvia, on the eastern shore of the
Baltic Sea). So conlangs may do better as natural ones.
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:12:02 -0500
From: Larry Sulky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Butterflies
On 11/3/05, Raivo Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A newcomer in the list proposes to extend the theme: what are the
> roots/words semantically connected to the term ´butterfly`or is the term an
> independent one? It´s quite obvious in English (butter-fly, OE butorfleoge)
> or, perhaps, in Estonian - ´liblikas´ is derived from ´lible`(a
> grass-blade). As I remember, Greek ´psyche´also referred to the insect,
> being appositely animistic in that connection.
>
I had always heard that this word was originally "flutter-by", but
through some humourous linguistic process got tied up with the concept
of "fly" (the insect) and so became "butter-fly", then just
"butterfly". Is this just a cute etymological myth?
---larry
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:25:45 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Small translation exercise
Taliesin wrote:
> * Mark J. Reed said on 2005-11-03 15:24:04 +0100
> >
> > On 11/3/05, taliesin the storyteller
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
[snip oft-parodied poem]
> > > I had never seen this poem before
> >
> > Shocking! What allegedly-educational system let you pass
> > through
> > without exposing you to Sandburg? We'll form a lynch mob at once!
> > Next you'll say that you didn't read any cummings, or Dickinson,
> > or
> > Tennyson, or Wordsworth, or . . .
>
> I'm not a WASP and I do not have English on the university-level, only
> high school. I've read Dickinson on my own though. (And Shakespeare,
> love the sonnets...)
>
> I have read large parts of the Eddas, Håvamål, Voluspå, Ibsen, Bjørnson,
> a bit of Kielland and Lie, lots of sagas, a bit of Strindberg etc. etc.
>
(Making allowance for irony......)
What kind of educational system have I passed through that did not include
Håvamål, Bjørnson, Kielland, Lie? I happen, through other reading, to be
aware of what Eddas, Voluspå, and sagas are; and have actually read/seen
some of Ibsen's and Strindberg's works.
As a lifelong student and lover of the Spanish language, I freely confess
there must be thousands of poets I've never heard of, however respected or
popular they may be in their own countries.
Sandburg's parents, FWIW, were of Swedish origin.
> It's getting colder here again (very weird fall so far, too hot),
ñuçiyu* yuñurun yayukar ehakas......
{*'weather, climate', not yet in the dictionary or supplement.}
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 09:20:04 -0800
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Butterflies
Watch gmail. This is Very Off Topic.
Onko totta, että suomalaisessä jouluperinteessä,
joulupukki oli lapsia syövä villisika?
On 11/3/05, Raivo Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> to Taliesin
>
> I´m Estonian with some other extraction, but I know Finnish.
> Natlang words for butterfly seem mostly onomatopoetic or compound - I found
> Yoruba labalaba in your list and can juxtapose it to a Livonian word
> libalaba (a nearly extinct language in Latvia, on the eastern shore of the
> Baltic Sea). So conlangs may do better as natural ones.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now!
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 17:13:24 -0000
From: caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: : Butterflies
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Raivo Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>A newcomer in the list proposes to extend the theme: what are the
>roots/words semantically connected to the term ´butterfly`or is the
>term an independent one? It´s quite obvious in English (butter-fly,
>OE butorfleoge) or, perhaps, in Estonian - ´liblikas´ is derived
>from >´lible`(a grass-blade). As I remember, Greek ´psyche´also
>referred to the insect, being appositely animistic in that
>connection.
I've always been attracted to, fascinated by, charmed by
butterflies. Consequently I have tried to learn the words for this
insect in various language. Sometimes, however, the etymology of
these words is not apparent.
The German is Schmetterling, a small Schmetter?? What is a
Schmetter. :-) The verb "schmettern" doesn't seem to be applicable.
The Italian is farfalla. Etymology?
The Spanish is mariposa. Etymology? Is the Portuguese similar?
The classical Greek word is, indeed, psyche:. The modern Greek is
e: petaloúdha.
My Welsh dictionary gives 3 words: glöyn byw, iâr fach yr haf, pili-
pala. This last one is a delightful word; is it onomatopoetic?
Etymologies?
The Tagalog is paruparó. Onomatopoetic?
The Comanche is ueyahcorá.
Opera buffs know the Japanese word: cho-cho, spelled cio-cio by
Puccini. I couldn't find this cho in my copy of "A Guide To
Remembering Japanese Characters."
I've saved the Latin until last. The Latin word is papilio (-nis)
which AHD says is of unknow origin. I happen to know that it
derives from the Senjecan word paaflen > paafla, to flutter, i.e.,
the fluttering animal, the -en class being the class of animals.
Charlie
http://wiki.frath.net/user:caeruleancentaur
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Message: 12
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:35:07 -0500
From: Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Butterflies
Larry Sulky wrote:
> On 11/3/05, Raivo Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > A newcomer in the list proposes to extend the theme: what are the
> > roots/words semantically connected to the term ´butterfly`or is the term
> > an
> > independent one? It´s quite obvious in English (butter-fly, OE
> > butorfleoge)
> > or, perhaps, in Estonian - ´liblikas´ is derived from ´lible`(a
> > grass-blade). As I remember, Greek ´psyche´also referred to the insect,
> > being appositely animistic in that connection.
> >
> I had always heard that this word was originally "flutter-by", but
> through some humourous linguistic process got tied up with the concept
> of "fly" (the insect) and so became "butter-fly", then just
> "butterfly". Is this just a cute etymological myth?
Don't know; that was my understanding too.
Polysyllabicity of the term:
Some Indonesian languages or other: kalibambang, kalipopo (first may contain
the root {bang} 'to fly')
Another (reminiscent of the Livonian term cited) liplipkai 'firefly' in
Leti, based on a word (lipa) meaning 'spark'.
The insects of Cindu are mostly unknown. It would be a shame, however, not
to have some analogue of moths/butterflies
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Message: 13
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:03:31 +0000
From: Chris Bates <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: : Butterflies
Basque (a natlang) has tximeleta /tSimeleta/ or mitxeleta /mitSeleta/ or
pinpilinpauxa /pinpilinpawSa/ for butterfly. Moth is sits /s_aits_a)/.
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Message: 14
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:58:05 -0500
From: Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RFC: New CXS symbol needed.
On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:01:35 -0500, Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Tristan Mc Leay skrev:
>> On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 16:43 -0500, Paul Bennett wrote:
>>
>>> The IPA have adopted their first new symbol in twelve years.
>>>
>>> http://www.sil.org/sil/news/2005/labiodental_flap.htm
>>>
>>> I propose /v`/ for the CXS representation,
>> I propose we wait until X-Sampa has a representation for it.
> I agree.
Why? What has X-SAMPA got to do with the future of CXS? True enough, it
was the primary source of CXS symbols, but we made improvements. X-SAMPA
contained bad ideas, which CXS put right. Should we automatically adopt
X-SAMPA's idea for this symbol, regardless of whether it's good or not?
That seems antithetical.
>> v` also makes me think of a retroflex. As far as I can see, ` is only
>> used in retroflex sounds in CXS.
> I agree about this to: ` marks "retroflex", not "vaguely rhotic-like".
Apart from when it marks rhotic vowels, and apart from the accoustic and
articulatory similarity between rhotic vowels, most "r" consonants, and
retroflexes.
Paul
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 18:43:52 -0000
From: mike poxon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Butterflies
The Omeina is "sirissui" = butterfly or moth, from siri "wing", itself from
a root si- meaning "light breeze, float", that sort of thing.
Mike
> I came over this text:
> http://www.trismegistos.com/IconicityInLanguage/Articles/Beeman.html
> and it made me think: what are the word(s) for "butterfly" in various
> conlangs? Klingon lacks the word I think, and I have few if any words
> for insects in my langs and sketches, including a word for butterfly.
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:23:09 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT: Good bye for now
Hello list,
Because my father told me and my siblings in a recent
burst of anger that when he's upstairs in the office, please
none of us shall disturb him with surfing on the internet or
watching TV up there while he's working, I am a bit more
restricted now wrt using the internet. That's why I'm
switching mostly to lurk-mode from now on. Anyway I haven't
got very much time at the moment -- besides the pre-Christmas
events that already produce stress on their own, we're going
to write three class tests each week until Christmas. And
then, after the holidays, the final examination tests are
going to start very soon, in parallel to the regular class
tests to be written in each subject (except Phys. Edu.). I
hope you understand I'll haven't got that much time left for
both the List and conlanging during the next half year. And
after this half year, I guess I'm having to move due to
beginning an apprenticeship -- I'm quite curious for the
future.
Yours,
Carsten
<lurk>
.
.
.
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 17
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:17:13 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Unsupervised learning of natural languages
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Sanghyeon Seo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I thought people on this list may be interested in the following
paper:
>
> http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/short/102/33/11629
> http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~ruppin/pnas_adios.pdf
>
> Unsupervised learning of natural languages
> Zach Solan, David Horn, Eytan Ruppin, and Shimon Edelman
>
> This inducts grammar rule from raw data (unsegmented writing,
> continuous speech, etc.), and is also generative and predictive. The
> algorithm is also believed to be linear, thus computationally
> feasible.
>
> Applying this to your conlang and generating few sentences may be an
> interesting experience... If someone can implement this.
>
> Seo Sanghyeon
>
Thank you.
I read the paper and liked it a lot, which is not to say I have
completely understood it yet.
They made concrete, and filled in the details of, an idea that hazily
occurred to me soon after I started thinking of this topic.
The only thing else I could wish for is, in all of the computerized
applications I have seen so far, including theirs, the input to the
computer is already segmentized. In any natural language, whether
sign-language or speech, the learner must somehow figure out for
himself or herself what the segments are and what the words are.
I have yet to see how a computer might do that.
Perhaps contrary to what Henrik T. seemed to be conjecturing a while
ago, it looks like they were able to use their algorithm on a corpus
of 31,100 sentences in each of six languages; Danish, Swedish,
French, Spanish, English, and Chinese. The corpora were actually all
meant to be translations of the same thing -- (the Bible).
They "typologized" these six languages according to what paths the
algorithm had to take in dealing with the corpus in that language.
Unsurprisingly Chinese was an outlier from the European languages.
Unsurprisingly the Romance pair were closer to each other than to
anything else. Unsurprisingly the Scandinavian pair were closer to
each other than to anything else. Surprisingly English was closer to
the Romance pair than to its fellow Germanic languages -- just from
the point of view of this algorithm, and just while dealing with the
Bible.
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:11:16 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RFC: New CXS symbol needed.
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Tristan Mc Leay skrev:
> > On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 16:43 -0500, Paul Bennett wrote:
> >
> >>The IPA have adopted their first new symbol in twelve years.
> >>
> >>http://www.sil.org/sil/news/2005/labiodental_flap.htm
> >>
> >>I propose /v`/ for the CXS representation, mainly for graphic reasons,
but
> >>I think there's iconism between the tappish and flappish nature of some
> >>rhotics, and the use of /`/ in a lot of those sounds.
> >
> >
> > I propose we wait until X-Sampa has a representation for it. There's no
> > reason to be gratuitously different. If X-Sampa chooses something
> > like /}\/, then sure, something different is welcome, but if they just
> > decide that P and v\ are no longer variants of each other, or assign V\
> > to it, then I think we ought to follow their lead.
>
> I agree.
And so do I.
-- Yitzik
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:21:49 +0100
From: Carsten Becker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: New member with a few questions.
On Tue, 01 Nov 2005, 09:53 CET, John Schlembach wrote:
... with your last name being pronounced /"SlEm.b{k/
(/ËÊlÉm.bæk/), I guess?
> Hello all.
Hello! Welcome to the List!
As for your language: I agree with the others, have you got
examples laying around somewhere that you could post here to
illustrate what you mean?
The links to Langmaker and the ZBB have already been given.
Also have a look at Daniel Andréasson's page
myconlanglinks.tk. It's a page with links to useful sites
related to conlanging.
Yours,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam cepauarà naranoaris."
(Calvin nay Hobbes)
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 21:26:22 +0200
From: Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Butterflies
caeruleancentaur wrote:
> Opera buffs know the Japanese word: cho-cho, spelled cio-cio by
> Puccini. I couldn't find this cho in my copy of "A Guide To
> Remembering Japanese Characters."
My dictionary gives both "chocho" and "cho", without reduplication, the
kanji is è¶ - Unicode U+8776.
-- Yitzik
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:39:54 -0500
From: "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RFC: New CXS symbol needed.
On 11/3/05, Isaac Penzev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
> > Tristan Mc Leay skrev:
> > > > I propose we wait until X-Sampa has a representation for it. There's
> no
> > > reason to be gratuitously different. If X-Sampa chooses something
> > > like /}\/, then sure, something different is welcome, but if they just
> > > decide that P and v\ are no longer variants of each other, or assign
> V\
> > > to it, then I think we ought to follow their lead.
> >
> > I agree.
>
> And so do I.
Fourthed!
Of course, if someone decided to create a new conlang including the
labiodental flap, waiting for X-SAMPA to get around to it might no longer be
practical. In which case we would need to pick something for our use, even
while retaining the option of switching to the official X-SAMPA symbol
whenever it is created.
I don't have an objection to |v`|. The ` is, in general, used for things
that in the IPA have hooks, and the new symbol has a hook. Either |v\| or
|V\| would also be OK, but they do seem too, I don't know, mainstream for
such an exotic and rare sound.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[This message contained attachments]
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:44:40 +0100
From: Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: CHAT Almost well-formed southern ape (wasRe: Teknonyms)
Quoting Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 11:43, Andreas Johansson wrote:
> > Quoting R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm back now in the UK and on list. I meant to post the following before
> > > my short sojourn in France:
> > >
> > > Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> > > > R A Brown skrev:
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > >> _australis_ "southern" is a perfectly good Latin adjective. But if
> > > >> this were a properly formed Latin compound, it would be
> > > >> 'Australipithecus' "southern ape".
> > > >>
> > > >> Sigh.
> > > >
> > > > "Notiopithecus" had not only been perfect Greek, it had also
> > > > precluded the notion that the critter lived in Australia!
> > >
> > > One would think the epithet 'africanus' would, er, a sort of gives away
> > > its habitat.
> >
> > Well, that's fine for Australopithecus africanus, A. afarensis, A.
> > bahrelghazali and A. aethiopicus, but not for A. anamensis, A. robustus, A.
> > garhi, and A. boisei.
> >
> > (The splittists would place aethiopicus, robustus, and boisei in the
> > separate genus Paranthropus.)
>
> Judging from the two facts that aethiopicus, robustos, and boisei had
> decidedly different dentition and eating habits from the gracile
> australopithecines that became genus homo, and also they appear to have left
> no descendants, I would say the splittists are right. Paranthropus -
> near-human - would appear to be right.
I quite agree, but at least in semipopular literature, the lumpist approach is
usually taken.
Andreas
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:52:11 -0800
From: "B. Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Butterflies
On 03/11/05, Roger Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Polysyllabicity of the term:
> Some Indonesian languages or other: kalibambang, kalipopo (first may contain
> the root {bang} 'to fly')
Hiligaynon from Panay uses "alibángbang" for the word, where Tagalog
uses paruparo.
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 19:41:31 -0000
From: tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Unsupervised learning of natural languages
--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > But the algorithm is limited to finding context free
> > rules, so some
> > things like vowel harmony or Werner's law etc.
> > cannot be found. On
> > the syntax level, the same holds for word ordering
> > phenomena occuring
> > in German or Dutch. In the computational
> > linguistics fields, context
> > free grammars are insufficient for virtually
> > everything. So although
> > the algorithms are fun to play with, they are not
> > really innovative, I
> > think, for linguistics.
> >
> > **Henrik
> >
>
> My reading of the paper (see, in particular, Mode A
> and Mode B. in the supporting text where the alogrithm
> is detailed) indicates that the algorithm handles the
> extraction of both context free and context sensitive
> rules.
>
> Quote: "In particular, when ADIOS is iterated, symbols
> that may have been initially very far apart are
> allowed to exert influence on each other, enabling it
> to capture long-range syntactic dependencies such as
> agreement (Fig. 2F)."
>
> Inidcating that even long-range context is taken into
> account.
>
> --gary
>
Right. In Mode B, the string is treated as a new node only in
contexts where MEX decides it is "significant"; or, two nodes are
treated as equivalent only in contexts where MEX decides they are
both "significant". So, in Mode B, the algorithm can be Context
Sensitive.
Also, the Context Window can be set wider. In their test runs, it
was always 5 or less -- I guess that would be as if all their rewrite
rules would have had, at maximum, the form
ABCDE --> FGHIJ
where each of those letters could be any arbitrary
grammar symbol (or absent) -- a terminal or a non-terminal -- and not
necessarily distinct from each other.
But the Context Window Width was a parameter that could be reset at
run-time. If it was set for 7 or more, I think it might start
finding fairly "long-distance" dependencies.
Tom H.C. in MI
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 12:24:16 -0800
From: Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Unsupervised learning of natural languages
--- tomhchappell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
>
> Also, the Context Window can be set wider. In their
> test runs, it
> was always 5 or less -- I guess that would be as if
> all their rewrite
> rules would have had, at maximum, the form
> ABCDE --> FGHIJ
> where each of those letters could be any arbitrary
> grammar symbol (or absent) -- a terminal or a
> non-terminal -- and not
> necessarily distinct from each other.
Bear in mind that after re-wiring the paths the length
of the string of nodes becomes smaller. For example,
ABCDEFGHIJKL where (DEFG) becomes Q -> ABCQHIJKL, and
then (CQHI) becomes R so that the string is then
ABRJKL, now the context widow at width 5 encompasses
they tokens A and K which were originally 10 step
apart. In this way, as the structures are recursively
collapsed, distant relationships become nearby
relationships and are eventually snagged by the
context window. Or at least they CAN potentially
becomes nearby relationships.
--gary
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