There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: phonology of Plan B
From: R A Brown
1b. Re: phonology of Plan B
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2a. Re: Here we go loup-garou
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
2b. Re: Here we go loup-garou
From: T. A. McLeay
2c. Re: Here we go loup-garou
From: Jeff Rollin
2d. Re: Here we go loup-garou
From: Mark J. Reed
2e. Re: Here we go loup-garou
From: Mark J. Reed
3a. Re: Mefato
From: R A Brown
3b. Re: Mefato
From: Philip Newton
4a. Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou)
From: Eldin Raigmore
4b. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou)
From: Jeff Rollin
4c. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou)
From: Mark J. Reed
4d. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou)
From: Jeff Rollin
5a. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it
From: caeruleancentaur
5b. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it
From: Jeff Rollin
5c. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it
From: Mark J. Reed
5d. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6.1. Re: digraphs
From: Lars Finsen
6.2. Re: digraphs
From: Jeff Rollin
6.3. Re: digraphs
From: Mark J. Reed
6.4. Re: digraphs
From: Lars Finsen
6.5. Re: digraphs
From: Mark J. Reed
6.6. Re: digraphs
From: Andreas Johansson
6.7. Re: digraphs
From: Mark J. Reed
7a. Re: Restricted clusters?
From: caeruleancentaur
Messages
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1a. Re: phonology of Plan B
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:16 am ((PDT))
Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
[snip]
>
> Yes. Surely, |E| is a better spelling for /re/ than |m|! But I think
> enough has been said on Plan B's baroque spelling.
Probably - so just a quickie.
I have now radically revised my earlier schemes for mapping quartets
0000 through to 1111 to CV syllables. Not nearly so interesting (or
baroque) as earlier schemes - but much more simple. See:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Loglang/PhonAndOrthog.html
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (24)
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1b. Re: phonology of Plan B
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:14:02 +0100, Ray Brown wrote:
> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > Yes. Surely, |E| is a better spelling for /re/ than |m|! But I think
> > enough has been said on Plan B's baroque spelling.
>
> Probably - so just a quickie.
>
> I have now radically revised my earlier schemes for mapping quartets
> 0000 through to 1111 to CV syllables. Not nearly so interesting (or
> baroque) as earlier schemes - but much more simple. See:
>
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Loglang/PhonAndOrthog.html
Simple - and *very* elegant!
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (24)
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2a. Re: Here we go loup-garou
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:17 am ((PDT))
On 10.7.2007 Mark J. Reed wrote:
> I should mention that the lack of phonemic voice was
> something I did to keep the syllabary manageable, and I've
> never really been happy with the move. I want my /s/ back.
>
The Kijeb syllabary writes voiceless/voiced stops and
fricatives other than /s/ with a single set of symbols for
each POA. Linear B, Cypriot syllabics and ancient Kana also
didn't note voicing distinctions that existed in the
language. The latter case is interesting since arguably Kana
was invented for the language it was used for, so it can be
seen as a way to keep the syllabary manageable by ignoring
one distinctive feature. NB the Scandinavian Runes did the
same, although they were alphabetic -- they also didn't
distinguish NC from C.
FWIW /s/ has a somewhat different status from /f(;)/ and
/x(;)/ in Kijeb, since it has allophones /z/ and /h/ and
enters into sC clusters. There are (C)V[snt] syllabograms
used for clusters, and #sCV is written VsCV. The fourth
syllable- final consonant /r/ is always written rV with a
supporting vowel, being the most sonorant.
NB Kijeb has [B(;) D(;) G(;)], but these are allophones of
/b(;) d(;) g(;)/.
/BP
Messages in this topic (19)
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2b. Re: Here we go loup-garou
Posted by: "T. A. McLeay" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:11 am ((PDT))
Jeff Rollin wrote:
> I know there are languages which don't have voiced consonants, like Finnish
> (except approximants, which appear to be always voiced; from loans; and /d/,
> which is regarded as somewhat artificial and replaced by various phonemes in
> non-standard dialects), but are there any languages which have voiced
> consonants but no voiced ones at all?
I assume you mean "but are there any languages which have voiced
consonants but no voiceLESS ones at all?".
No. If a language has no voicing distinction, then you will almost
always find a situation in which initial and final obstruents are
voiceless, and intervocallic ones may be allophonically voiced. This is
because (a) the pressure in your lungs needs to be a certain amount
greater than that of your oral cavity for voicing to occur, but blocking
the air from escaping while forcing air from your lungs into your mouth
causes the pressure to equalise --- this makes it hard to voice stops
and (b) because to pronounce a fricative you need to force a lot of air
through a small space (otherwise you either get no air coming through
and a stop, or you get air passing through cleanly and you get an
approximant), but vibrating your vocal chords makes it harder to obtain
this critical level --- this makes it hard to fricate while voicing.
Note that these two process work in opposite ways: It is hard to vibrate
your vocal chords while making a stop; but it is hard to make a
fricative while vibrating your vocal chords. This explains why in many
languages, voiced fricatives are often pronounced as approximants.
So in order to have a language in which only voiced consonants occurred,
either the speakers would need to be doing something harder than to
include voiceless consonants (and would therefore quickly include
voiceless consonants into their repertoire either allophonically or
phonemically); or else the language will lack obstruents entirely and
have only vowels and sonorants.
A language with no obstruents is exceedingly unlikely because it makes
the hearer's job a lot harder. Nasals and laterals at different points
of articulation are distinguished by what frequencies are *missing*
rather than which ones are *present*, and so they sound a lot more
similar (notice how hard it is to clearly say "*em*, not *en*"). Central
approximants are much harder to keep apart from vowels, being
essentially vowels in a part of a syllable designated for consonants.
I'm not sure what, if anything, is wrong with taps, as they are
essentially voiced stops pronounced so quickly that the difficulty of
maintaining voicing doesn't come up, but precisely because of this I
suppose you'd be better able to hear it if you took longer to say it and
turned it into a proper voiced stop.
(Australian Aboriginal languages often use d, rd, dj, g for /t t` c k/;
this is as much due to the (Australian) English pronunciation of
/t _ tS k/ (which are aspirated) and /d _ dZ g/ (which are unvoiced or
voiced only lightly before stressed vowels) as the Aboriginal
pronunciations.)
If you meant "but are there any language which have voiceLESS consonants
but no voiced ones at all", this would entail the absence of sonorant
consonants and allophonic intervocalic vocing. I'm not sure whether or
not any language does the former, and in the absence of a voicing
distinction I'd be surprised if the latter occurred. I wouldn't rule it
out (like I would the other way), but I don't know of any.
HTH,
--
Tristan.
Messages in this topic (19)
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2c. Re: Here we go loup-garou
Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:20 am ((PDT))
In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 15:05:54), T. A. McLeay wrote:
> Jeff Rollin wrote:
> > I know there are languages which don't have voiced consonants, like
> > Finnish (except approximants, which appear to be always voiced; from
> > loans; and /d/, which is regarded as somewhat artificial and replaced by
> > various phonemes in non-standard dialects), but are there any languages
> > which have voiced consonants but no voiced ones at all?
>
> I assume you mean "but are there any languages which have voiced
> consonants but no voiceLESS ones at all?".
>
> No. If a language has no voicing distinction, then you will almost
> always find a situation in which initial and final obstruents are
> voiceless, and intervocallic ones may be allophonically voiced. This is
> because (a) the pressure in your lungs needs to be a certain amount
> greater than that of your oral cavity for voicing to occur, but blocking
> the air from escaping while forcing air from your lungs into your mouth
> causes the pressure to equalise --- this makes it hard to voice stops
> and (b) because to pronounce a fricative you need to force a lot of air
> through a small space (otherwise you either get no air coming through
> and a stop, or you get air passing through cleanly and you get an
> approximant), but vibrating your vocal chords makes it harder to obtain
> this critical level --- this makes it hard to fricate while voicing.
>
> Note that these two process work in opposite ways: It is hard to vibrate
> your vocal chords while making a stop; but it is hard to make a
> fricative while vibrating your vocal chords. This explains why in many
> languages, voiced fricatives are often pronounced as approximants.
>
> So in order to have a language in which only voiced consonants occurred,
> either the speakers would need to be doing something harder than to
> include voiceless consonants (and would therefore quickly include
> voiceless consonants into their repertoire either allophonically or
> phonemically); or else the language will lack obstruents entirely and
> have only vowels and sonorants.
>
> A language with no obstruents is exceedingly unlikely because it makes
> the hearer's job a lot harder. Nasals and laterals at different points
> of articulation are distinguished by what frequencies are *missing*
> rather than which ones are *present*, and so they sound a lot more
> similar (notice how hard it is to clearly say "*em*, not *en*"). Central
> approximants are much harder to keep apart from vowels, being
> essentially vowels in a part of a syllable designated for consonants.
> I'm not sure what, if anything, is wrong with taps, as they are
> essentially voiced stops pronounced so quickly that the difficulty of
> maintaining voicing doesn't come up, but precisely because of this I
> suppose you'd be better able to hear it if you took longer to say it and
> turned it into a proper voiced stop.
>
> (Australian Aboriginal languages often use d, rd, dj, g for /t t` c k/;
> this is as much due to the (Australian) English pronunciation of
> /t _ tS k/ (which are aspirated) and /d _ dZ g/ (which are unvoiced or
> voiced only lightly before stressed vowels) as the Aboriginal
> pronunciations.)
>
> If you meant "but are there any language which have voiceLESS consonants
> but no voiced ones at all", this would entail the absence of sonorant
> consonants and allophonic intervocalic vocing. I'm not sure whether or
> not any language does the former, and in the absence of a voicing
> distinction I'd be surprised if the latter occurred. I wouldn't rule it
> out (like I would the other way), but I don't know of any.
>
> HTH,
Thanks, that was a really clear explanation. And yes I did mean the first of
the two possibilities you posited.
FWIW I think there are Aust Abor languages that lack /s/, but I don't know if
any lack all sonorants - if /s/ is an example of what you mean by sonorant.
Jeff
--
"Please understand that there are small
European principalities devoted to debating
Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction."
-- Cameron Laird
Messages in this topic (19)
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2d. Re: Here we go loup-garou
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:28 am ((PDT))
Thanks for that interesting description, Tristan. To be clear,
current Okaikiar has no phonemic voicing, but it does have allophonic
voicing.
The choice of the voiced symbols for the phonemes was driven by the
preexisting transliterations of the names. I sloppily left them alone
in my CXS transcription of the Paternoster, but phonetically the
consonants tend to be voiceless initially and voiced medially and
finally (within the sound stream, not based on word boundaries).
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (19)
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2e. Re: Here we go loup-garou
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))
On 7/10/07, Jeff Rollin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> FWIW I think there are Aust Abor languages that lack /s/, but I don't know if
> any lack all sonorants - if /s/ is an example of what you mean by sonorant.
My understanding is that a "sonorant" is any sound that can serve as a
syllable nucleus (including or excluding vowels, depending on whom you
ask). There is frequently a hierarchy of sonority, with vowels as the
most sonorous and stops the least. But when used binarily, the term
"sonorant" includes fricatives, nasals, and liquids. Non-liquid
approximants ([j], [w], etc) are not sonorant; they are essentially
de-sonorized vowels.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (19)
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3a. Re: Mefato
Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:34 am ((PDT))
Philip Newton wrote:
> On 7/9/07, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> he has sent me a copy
>> of a "De Kolovrat" style mapping of the syllables to bytes 00 through to
>> FF; he seemed quite pleased with this :)
>
>
> I wonder whether octal would be a more appropriate representation then
> hexadecimal,
The idea was to emulate in base 16 what De Kolovrat did in base 10, that
is we allot a syllabic value to _all_ values from 0 to 100-1 in whatever
base we are using. De Kolovrat assigned values from 00 to 99 (decimal), see:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0104a&L=conlang&T=0&F=&S=&P=51469
If we used octals, then octal 0 to 100-1, gives us 00 to 77 or, in
decimal 0..63, which is not enough values for the Mefato syllabary. If
on the other hand we used 000 to 777, we'd have in decimal 0..511 which
is far too many.
> since then the first one or two digits would uniquely
> identify the consonant and the last digit the vowel, whereas with hex,
> the first digit could be one of two consonants depending on whether
> the second digit is 0-7 or 8-F.
But exactly the same applies in decimal 00..99 if we just use the
classical vowels |a e i o u| because 5 is 10/2. Mefato curiously had 8
vowels, and 8 is 16/2 :)
If you examine De Kolovrat's system you will find that Anander
Hythloday's hex system is analogous to De Kolovrat's decimal system.
When I saw 'Philip Newton' as the writer of the mail, I thought I was
going to read some comment about the names 'Anander Hythloday' and
'Mefato' ;)
--
Ray
==================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Mefato
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT))
On 7/10/07, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When I saw 'Philip Newton' as the writer of the mail, I thought I was
> going to read some comment about the names 'Anander Hythloday' and
> 'Mefato' ;)
Sorry to disappoint you!
I'm afraid they still don't ring a bell even after you pointed me to
them explicitly. ("Anander" looks vaguely Greek for "Un-man", but I
can't parse the rest.)
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou)
Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))
---In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[snip]
>OK, let me back up a bit. The proper names were the starting point.
>From them I derived the language as it currently stands, with some
>phonological features that aren't obvious from those names.
>
>1. No phonemic voice. Tysor is phonemically Dyzor. Hence the lack of
><s>es (and <t>s, for that matter) in the text. I kept <k> as the
>phonemic representation for [k]/[g], which is a little inconsistent,
>but with <g> not even showing up at all in the names, I felt adopting
>it would be going too far.
>
>2. I added umlaut as part of the inflectional system, hence y and ø.
>
>[snip]
>
>As for the Americanisms - I was either 6 or 8 when I devised the
>names. When I became more linguistically astute I played with
>Spanishizing them to /zan/ (instead of /z&n/) and /tisor/ or even
>/tysor/ and found the change unsatisfactory. I then abbreviated Tysor
>to T'sor /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/. (In the current transliteration, <'> == /@/).
>
>[snip]
>
> --
> Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
I'm working with Adpihi & Reptigan as my conlangs. For both languages I came
up with the names first; in the case of Adpihi also with one word/clause
("/adpihi/", in case you were wondering). I was 8yo or younger when I started
on Adpihi and a teenager still living at home when I started on Reptigan.
In my fifties I'm now finally conlanging in a more informed manner. But one of
my problems has been coming up with phonologies/phonetics/phonotactics I
like that will allow the names Adpihi and Reptigan, and a lexicon that will
give
them the meanings I want.
Is that a problem commonly faced by conlangers?
Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou)
Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:47 am ((PDT))
In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 15:38:19), Eldin Raigmore wrote:
> ---In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >[snip]
> >OK, let me back up a bit. The proper names were the starting point.
> >From them I derived the language as it currently stands, with some
> >phonological features that aren't obvious from those names.
> >
> >1. No phonemic voice. Tysor is phonemically Dyzor. Hence the lack of
> ><s>es (and <t>s, for that matter) in the text. I kept <k> as the
> >phonemic representation for [k]/[g], which is a little inconsistent,
> >but with <g> not even showing up at all in the names, I felt adopting
> >it would be going too far.
> >
> >2. I added umlaut as part of the inflectional system, hence y and ø.
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >As for the Americanisms - I was either 6 or 8 when I devised the
> >names. When I became more linguistically astute I played with
> >Spanishizing them to /zan/ (instead of /z&n/) and /tisor/ or even
> >/tysor/ and found the change unsatisfactory. I then abbreviated Tysor
> >to T'sor /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/. (In the current transliteration, <'> == /@/).
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> > --
> > Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I'm working with Adpihi & Reptigan as my conlangs. For both languages I
> came up with the names first; in the case of Adpihi also with one
> word/clause ("/adpihi/", in case you were wondering). I was 8yo or younger
> when I started on Adpihi and a teenager still living at home when I started
> on Reptigan.
>
> In my fifties I'm now finally conlanging in a more informed manner. But
> one of my problems has been coming up with
> phonologies/phonetics/phonotactics I like that will allow the names Adpihi
> and Reptigan, and a lexicon that will give them the meanings I want.
>
> Is that a problem commonly faced by conlangers?
Speaking solely for myself: always.
Although I sometimes "cheat" and change the name of the language. Velyan has
had about four, not including variants of "Velyan".
Jeff
--
"Please understand that there are small
European principalities devoted to debating
Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction."
-- Cameron Laird
Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou)
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:24 am ((PDT))
On 7/10/07, Jeff Rollin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>
> Although I sometimes "cheat" and change the name of the language. Velyan has
> had about four, not including variants of "Velyan".
Lessee: Mephaehi (<ph>=/f/), Mephali, Mefali, Methkaeki (<th>=/T/)...
Nope, totally unfamiliar with that sort of cheating.
<whistle>
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (4)
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4d. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou)
Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:29 am ((PDT))
In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 16:23:02), Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On 7/10/07, Jeff Rollin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>
>
> > Although I sometimes "cheat" and change the name of the language. Velyan
> > has had about four, not including variants of "Velyan".
>
> Lessee: Mephaehi (<ph>=/f/), Mephali, Mefali, Methkaeki (<th>=/T/)...
>
> Nope, totally unfamiliar with that sort of cheating.
>
> <whistle>
Heheh. But what about Saumia to Terttu to Valian to Velian to Velyan, with
possibly some in between? ;-)
Jeff.
--
"Please understand that there are small
European principalities devoted to debating
Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction."
-- Cameron Laird
Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT))
>ROGER MILLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>My favorites (and I have to watch myself in proper discourse) are:
>Hoobert Heever (Pres. of the US just before FDR) and "one swell foop" -
>- leftovers from schooldays.
If you've attended a religious service which includes readings from a
Sacred Scripture, you have probably heard some humorous instances.
Genesis 15:17 tells of a flaming brazier (New American Bible
translation). I once heard "a flaming brassiere."
Luke 16:26, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus tells of a great
abyss. I have heard "a great abbess."
Both of these mispronunciations bring interesting pictures to mind!
Charlie
Messages in this topic (18)
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5b. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it
Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:08 am ((PDT))
In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 16:44:00), caeruleancentaur
wrote:
> >ROGER MILLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >My favorites (and I have to watch myself in proper discourse) are:
> >Hoobert Heever (Pres. of the US just before FDR) and "one swell foop" -
> >- leftovers from schooldays.
>
> If you've attended a religious service which includes readings from a
> Sacred Scripture, you have probably heard some humorous instances.
>
> Genesis 15:17 tells of a flaming brazier (New American Bible
> translation). I once heard "a flaming brassiere."
>
> Luke 16:26, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus tells of a great
> abyss. I have heard "a great abbess."
>
> Both of these mispronunciations bring interesting pictures to mind!
>
> Charlie
You'd think God would tell them (and Bush) how to pronounce stuff properly.
Totally nukular.
Jeff
--
"Please understand that there are small
European principalities devoted to debating
Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction."
-- Cameron Laird
Messages in this topic (18)
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5c. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:29 am ((PDT))
On 7/10/07, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Luke 16:26, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus tells of a great
> abyss. I have heard "a great abbess."
Could have been worse. I believe at least one version of the Bible
translates that as "a deep abyss"..
I used to pronounce <brazier> as homphonous with "brassiere" as well.
The word doesn't come up that often, but it was (is?) the trademarked
hamburger name of the Dairy Queen restaurant chain.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (18)
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5d. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it
Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT))
In a message dated 7/10/2007 11:33:56 AM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I used to pronounce <brazier> as homphonous with "brassiere" as well.
> The word doesn't come up that often, but it was (is?) the trademarked
> hamburger name of the Dairy Queen restaurant chain.
>
Long live Dairy Queen!
stevo </HTML>
Messages in this topic (18)
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6.1. Re: digraphs
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:58 am ((PDT))
Den 9. jul. 2007 kl. 15.37 skrev Mark J. Reed:
>
>
> I love the sound of the name Zaragoza [Ta4a'GoTa] myself. I can
> just repeat it over and over...
Funny loves people have. What about the American Hispanics. What do
they make of the z?
> Still, <z> for /T/ is at least weirder than Lars's other example of
> German.
> My Deutsch is rusty, but doesn't <z> represent /ts/? That seems
> pretty normal to me.
Well, the normal is /z/. Italians do it like the Germans, but have a
voiced variant too. Another weird use is in some Scottish names, like
Menzies, Dalziel, MacKenzie, where it replaces the former yogh.
LEF
Messages in this topic (35)
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6.2. Re: digraphs
Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))
In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 16:56:41), Lars Finsen wrote:
> Den 9. jul. 2007 kl. 15.37 skrev Mark J. Reed:
> > I love the sound of the name Zaragoza [Ta4a'GoTa] myself. I can
> > just repeat it over and over...
>
> Funny loves people have. What about the American Hispanics. What do
> they make of the z?
>
> > Still, <z> for /T/ is at least weirder than Lars's other example of
> > German.
> > My Deutsch is rusty, but doesn't <z> represent /ts/? That seems
> > pretty normal to me.
>
> Well, the normal is /z/. Italians do it like the Germans, but have a
> voiced variant too. Another weird use is in some Scottish names, like
> Menzies, Dalziel, MacKenzie, where it replaces the former yogh.
>
> LEF
Hmm. "Mingus" is getting quite a lot of traction over here due to the
fame/infamy of the third party's leader, and "Dee-el and Pascoe" is the name
of a popular TV show, But I've always heard "MacKenzie" as "Mak'enzi:"
Jeff
--
"Please understand that there are small
European principalities devoted to debating
Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction."
-- Cameron Laird
Messages in this topic (35)
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6.3. Re: digraphs
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:27 am ((PDT))
On 7/10/07, Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Funny loves people have. What about the American Hispanics. What do
> they make of the z?
In Latin American Spanish, there is no pronunciation difference
between <z> and <s>; both are /s/.
Note that in Spanish, the pronunciation of <z> is also the
pronunciation of "soft" <c>, that is, <c> before <e> or <i>. So
Peninsular /graTias/, Latino /grasias/.
> Well, the normal is /z/.
By whose definition of "normal"? :)
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (35)
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6.4. Re: digraphs
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:26 am ((PDT))
Den 10. jul. 2007 kl. 18.22 skrev Mark J. Reed:
> In Latin American Spanish, there is no pronunciation difference
> between <z> and <s>; both are /s/.
Interesting. Norwegians do it the same way, though all our <z> words
are foreign. 'Zoologi' for example is /sulogi/.
>> Well, the normal is /z/.
>
> By whose definition of "normal"? :)
Well, that's what it was invented for. And what I *expect* when I see
it. Allow me a little subjectivity here. Of course, apparently the
usages have diverged somewhat.
Den 10. jul. 2007 kl. 18.07 skrev Jeff Rollin:
> Hmm. "Mingus" is getting quite a lot of traction over here due to the
> fame/infamy of the third party's leader, and "Dee-el and Pascoe" is
> the name of a popular TV show, But I've always heard "MacKenzie" as
> "Mak'enzi:"
Yes, even Menzies is sometimes pronounced with a /z/ nowadays. And I
must say Mak'enzi has a tougher, more tartan-claymore-bannockburnish
ring to it than Mak'enyi, maybe that's the reason for the choice...
LEF
Messages in this topic (35)
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6.5. Re: digraphs
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))
On 7/10/07, Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Well, the normal is /z/.
> >
> > By whose definition of "normal"? :)
>
> Well, that's what it was invented for.
Depending on what you mean by "invented". There's evidence that the
letter it comes from stood for /dz/ originally, and that's the value
it had in early Latin. But sound changes conflated /dz/ and /r/,
rendering <z> redundant, so it was dropped by the Classical period.
When it was later re-borrowed from Greek, it was to represent /z/,
which existed in Greek but not Latin; but it was quite possibly
pronounced /dz/ in Vulgar Latin even then.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (35)
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6.6. Re: digraphs
Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT))
Quoting Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Den 10. jul. 2007 kl. 18.22 skrev Mark J. Reed:
>
> > In Latin American Spanish, there is no pronunciation difference
> > between <z> and <s>; both are /s/.
>
> Interesting. Norwegians do it the same way, though all our <z> words
> are foreign. 'Zoologi' for example is /sulogi/.
In Swedish it's usually /s/, but /ts/ in eg. _pizza_ and the prefix _schizo-_.
Andreas
Messages in this topic (35)
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6.7. Re: digraphs
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:53 pm ((PDT))
On 7/10/07, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In Swedish it's usually /s/, but /ts/ in eg. _pizza_ and the prefix _schizo-_.
So it parallels the English pronunciation. /s/ where we have /z/, but
/ts/ where we have /ts/.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (35)
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7a. Re: Restricted clusters?
Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT))
>Jeff Rollin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>3) Anyone know of a conlang that has two (or more) tones and has to
>use different diacritics to represent them over different letters
>(e.g. high and low tone over front and back vowels?)
Senjecas has three tones which I call high, middle, and low (creative,
huh?). I indicate the high tone with a double acute accent, the middle
with an acute accent. The low is unmarked. If the double accent is
not available, I use a circumflex.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (8)
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