There are 25 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: phonology of Plan B From: R A Brown 1b. Re: phonology of Plan B From: Jörg Rhiemeier 2a. Re: Here we go loup-garou From: Benct Philip Jonsson 2b. Re: Here we go loup-garou From: T. A. McLeay 2c. Re: Here we go loup-garou From: Jeff Rollin 2d. Re: Here we go loup-garou From: Mark J. Reed 2e. Re: Here we go loup-garou From: Mark J. Reed 3a. Re: Mefato From: R A Brown 3b. Re: Mefato From: Philip Newton 4a. Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou) From: Eldin Raigmore 4b. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou) From: Jeff Rollin 4c. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou) From: Mark J. Reed 4d. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou) From: Jeff Rollin 5a. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it From: caeruleancentaur 5b. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it From: Jeff Rollin 5c. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it From: Mark J. Reed 5d. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6.1. Re: digraphs From: Lars Finsen 6.2. Re: digraphs From: Jeff Rollin 6.3. Re: digraphs From: Mark J. Reed 6.4. Re: digraphs From: Lars Finsen 6.5. Re: digraphs From: Mark J. Reed 6.6. Re: digraphs From: Andreas Johansson 6.7. Re: digraphs From: Mark J. Reed 7a. Re: Restricted clusters? From: caeruleancentaur Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1a. Re: phonology of Plan B Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:16 am ((PDT)) Jörg Rhiemeier wrote: [snip] > > Yes. Surely, |E| is a better spelling for /re/ than |m|! But I think > enough has been said on Plan B's baroque spelling. Probably - so just a quickie. I have now radically revised my earlier schemes for mapping quartets 0000 through to 1111 to CV syllables. Not nearly so interesting (or baroque) as earlier schemes - but much more simple. See: http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Loglang/PhonAndOrthog.html -- Ray ================================== [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.carolandray.plus.com ================================== Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu. There's none too old to learn. [WELSH PROVERB] Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ 1b. Re: phonology of Plan B Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:13 pm ((PDT)) Hallo! On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 14:14:02 +0100, Ray Brown wrote: > Jörg Rhiemeier wrote: > [snip] > > > > Yes. Surely, |E| is a better spelling for /re/ than |m|! But I think > > enough has been said on Plan B's baroque spelling. > > Probably - so just a quickie. > > I have now radically revised my earlier schemes for mapping quartets > 0000 through to 1111 to CV syllables. Not nearly so interesting (or > baroque) as earlier schemes - but much more simple. See: > > http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Loglang/PhonAndOrthog.html Simple - and *very* elegant! ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf Messages in this topic (24) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2a. Re: Here we go loup-garou Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:17 am ((PDT)) On 10.7.2007 Mark J. Reed wrote: > I should mention that the lack of phonemic voice was > something I did to keep the syllabary manageable, and I've > never really been happy with the move. I want my /s/ back. > The Kijeb syllabary writes voiceless/voiced stops and fricatives other than /s/ with a single set of symbols for each POA. Linear B, Cypriot syllabics and ancient Kana also didn't note voicing distinctions that existed in the language. The latter case is interesting since arguably Kana was invented for the language it was used for, so it can be seen as a way to keep the syllabary manageable by ignoring one distinctive feature. NB the Scandinavian Runes did the same, although they were alphabetic -- they also didn't distinguish NC from C. FWIW /s/ has a somewhat different status from /f(;)/ and /x(;)/ in Kijeb, since it has allophones /z/ and /h/ and enters into sC clusters. There are (C)V[snt] syllabograms used for clusters, and #sCV is written VsCV. The fourth syllable- final consonant /r/ is always written rV with a supporting vowel, being the most sonorant. NB Kijeb has [B(;) D(;) G(;)], but these are allophones of /b(;) d(;) g(;)/. /BP Messages in this topic (19) ________________________________________________________________________ 2b. Re: Here we go loup-garou Posted by: "T. A. McLeay" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:11 am ((PDT)) Jeff Rollin wrote: > I know there are languages which don't have voiced consonants, like Finnish > (except approximants, which appear to be always voiced; from loans; and /d/, > which is regarded as somewhat artificial and replaced by various phonemes in > non-standard dialects), but are there any languages which have voiced > consonants but no voiced ones at all? I assume you mean "but are there any languages which have voiced consonants but no voiceLESS ones at all?". No. If a language has no voicing distinction, then you will almost always find a situation in which initial and final obstruents are voiceless, and intervocallic ones may be allophonically voiced. This is because (a) the pressure in your lungs needs to be a certain amount greater than that of your oral cavity for voicing to occur, but blocking the air from escaping while forcing air from your lungs into your mouth causes the pressure to equalise --- this makes it hard to voice stops and (b) because to pronounce a fricative you need to force a lot of air through a small space (otherwise you either get no air coming through and a stop, or you get air passing through cleanly and you get an approximant), but vibrating your vocal chords makes it harder to obtain this critical level --- this makes it hard to fricate while voicing. Note that these two process work in opposite ways: It is hard to vibrate your vocal chords while making a stop; but it is hard to make a fricative while vibrating your vocal chords. This explains why in many languages, voiced fricatives are often pronounced as approximants. So in order to have a language in which only voiced consonants occurred, either the speakers would need to be doing something harder than to include voiceless consonants (and would therefore quickly include voiceless consonants into their repertoire either allophonically or phonemically); or else the language will lack obstruents entirely and have only vowels and sonorants. A language with no obstruents is exceedingly unlikely because it makes the hearer's job a lot harder. Nasals and laterals at different points of articulation are distinguished by what frequencies are *missing* rather than which ones are *present*, and so they sound a lot more similar (notice how hard it is to clearly say "*em*, not *en*"). Central approximants are much harder to keep apart from vowels, being essentially vowels in a part of a syllable designated for consonants. I'm not sure what, if anything, is wrong with taps, as they are essentially voiced stops pronounced so quickly that the difficulty of maintaining voicing doesn't come up, but precisely because of this I suppose you'd be better able to hear it if you took longer to say it and turned it into a proper voiced stop. (Australian Aboriginal languages often use d, rd, dj, g for /t t` c k/; this is as much due to the (Australian) English pronunciation of /t _ tS k/ (which are aspirated) and /d _ dZ g/ (which are unvoiced or voiced only lightly before stressed vowels) as the Aboriginal pronunciations.) If you meant "but are there any language which have voiceLESS consonants but no voiced ones at all", this would entail the absence of sonorant consonants and allophonic intervocalic vocing. I'm not sure whether or not any language does the former, and in the absence of a voicing distinction I'd be surprised if the latter occurred. I wouldn't rule it out (like I would the other way), but I don't know of any. HTH, -- Tristan. Messages in this topic (19) ________________________________________________________________________ 2c. Re: Here we go loup-garou Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:20 am ((PDT)) In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 15:05:54), T. A. McLeay wrote: > Jeff Rollin wrote: > > I know there are languages which don't have voiced consonants, like > > Finnish (except approximants, which appear to be always voiced; from > > loans; and /d/, which is regarded as somewhat artificial and replaced by > > various phonemes in non-standard dialects), but are there any languages > > which have voiced consonants but no voiced ones at all? > > I assume you mean "but are there any languages which have voiced > consonants but no voiceLESS ones at all?". > > No. If a language has no voicing distinction, then you will almost > always find a situation in which initial and final obstruents are > voiceless, and intervocallic ones may be allophonically voiced. This is > because (a) the pressure in your lungs needs to be a certain amount > greater than that of your oral cavity for voicing to occur, but blocking > the air from escaping while forcing air from your lungs into your mouth > causes the pressure to equalise --- this makes it hard to voice stops > and (b) because to pronounce a fricative you need to force a lot of air > through a small space (otherwise you either get no air coming through > and a stop, or you get air passing through cleanly and you get an > approximant), but vibrating your vocal chords makes it harder to obtain > this critical level --- this makes it hard to fricate while voicing. > > Note that these two process work in opposite ways: It is hard to vibrate > your vocal chords while making a stop; but it is hard to make a > fricative while vibrating your vocal chords. This explains why in many > languages, voiced fricatives are often pronounced as approximants. > > So in order to have a language in which only voiced consonants occurred, > either the speakers would need to be doing something harder than to > include voiceless consonants (and would therefore quickly include > voiceless consonants into their repertoire either allophonically or > phonemically); or else the language will lack obstruents entirely and > have only vowels and sonorants. > > A language with no obstruents is exceedingly unlikely because it makes > the hearer's job a lot harder. Nasals and laterals at different points > of articulation are distinguished by what frequencies are *missing* > rather than which ones are *present*, and so they sound a lot more > similar (notice how hard it is to clearly say "*em*, not *en*"). Central > approximants are much harder to keep apart from vowels, being > essentially vowels in a part of a syllable designated for consonants. > I'm not sure what, if anything, is wrong with taps, as they are > essentially voiced stops pronounced so quickly that the difficulty of > maintaining voicing doesn't come up, but precisely because of this I > suppose you'd be better able to hear it if you took longer to say it and > turned it into a proper voiced stop. > > (Australian Aboriginal languages often use d, rd, dj, g for /t t` c k/; > this is as much due to the (Australian) English pronunciation of > /t _ tS k/ (which are aspirated) and /d _ dZ g/ (which are unvoiced or > voiced only lightly before stressed vowels) as the Aboriginal > pronunciations.) > > If you meant "but are there any language which have voiceLESS consonants > but no voiced ones at all", this would entail the absence of sonorant > consonants and allophonic intervocalic vocing. I'm not sure whether or > not any language does the former, and in the absence of a voicing > distinction I'd be surprised if the latter occurred. I wouldn't rule it > out (like I would the other way), but I don't know of any. > > HTH, Thanks, that was a really clear explanation. And yes I did mean the first of the two possibilities you posited. FWIW I think there are Aust Abor languages that lack /s/, but I don't know if any lack all sonorants - if /s/ is an example of what you mean by sonorant. Jeff -- "Please understand that there are small European principalities devoted to debating Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction." -- Cameron Laird Messages in this topic (19) ________________________________________________________________________ 2d. Re: Here we go loup-garou Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:28 am ((PDT)) Thanks for that interesting description, Tristan. To be clear, current Okaikiar has no phonemic voicing, but it does have allophonic voicing. The choice of the voiced symbols for the phonemes was driven by the preexisting transliterations of the names. I sloppily left them alone in my CXS transcription of the Paternoster, but phonetically the consonants tend to be voiceless initially and voiced medially and finally (within the sound stream, not based on word boundaries). -- Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Messages in this topic (19) ________________________________________________________________________ 2e. Re: Here we go loup-garou Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT)) On 7/10/07, Jeff Rollin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > FWIW I think there are Aust Abor languages that lack /s/, but I don't know if > any lack all sonorants - if /s/ is an example of what you mean by sonorant. My understanding is that a "sonorant" is any sound that can serve as a syllable nucleus (including or excluding vowels, depending on whom you ask). There is frequently a hierarchy of sonority, with vowels as the most sonorous and stops the least. But when used binarily, the term "sonorant" includes fricatives, nasals, and liquids. Non-liquid approximants ([j], [w], etc) are not sonorant; they are essentially de-sonorized vowels. -- Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Messages in this topic (19) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 3a. Re: Mefato Posted by: "R A Brown" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:34 am ((PDT)) Philip Newton wrote: > On 7/9/07, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> he has sent me a copy >> of a "De Kolovrat" style mapping of the syllables to bytes 00 through to >> FF; he seemed quite pleased with this :) > > > I wonder whether octal would be a more appropriate representation then > hexadecimal, The idea was to emulate in base 16 what De Kolovrat did in base 10, that is we allot a syllabic value to _all_ values from 0 to 100-1 in whatever base we are using. De Kolovrat assigned values from 00 to 99 (decimal), see: http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0104a&L=conlang&T=0&F=&S=&P=51469 If we used octals, then octal 0 to 100-1, gives us 00 to 77 or, in decimal 0..63, which is not enough values for the Mefato syllabary. If on the other hand we used 000 to 777, we'd have in decimal 0..511 which is far too many. > since then the first one or two digits would uniquely > identify the consonant and the last digit the vowel, whereas with hex, > the first digit could be one of two consonants depending on whether > the second digit is 0-7 or 8-F. But exactly the same applies in decimal 00..99 if we just use the classical vowels |a e i o u| because 5 is 10/2. Mefato curiously had 8 vowels, and 8 is 16/2 :) If you examine De Kolovrat's system you will find that Anander Hythloday's hex system is analogous to De Kolovrat's decimal system. When I saw 'Philip Newton' as the writer of the mail, I thought I was going to read some comment about the names 'Anander Hythloday' and 'Mefato' ;) -- Ray ================================== [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.carolandray.plus.com ================================== Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu. There's none too old to learn. [WELSH PROVERB] Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ 3b. Re: Mefato Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:38 pm ((PDT)) On 7/10/07, R A Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When I saw 'Philip Newton' as the writer of the mail, I thought I was > going to read some comment about the names 'Anander Hythloday' and > 'Mefato' ;) Sorry to disappoint you! I'm afraid they still don't ring a bell even after you pointed me to them explicitly. ("Anander" looks vaguely Greek for "Un-man", but I can't parse the rest.) Cheers, -- Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 4a. Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou) Posted by: "Eldin Raigmore" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT)) ---In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >[snip] >OK, let me back up a bit. The proper names were the starting point. >From them I derived the language as it currently stands, with some >phonological features that aren't obvious from those names. > >1. No phonemic voice. Tysor is phonemically Dyzor. Hence the lack of ><s>es (and <t>s, for that matter) in the text. I kept <k> as the >phonemic representation for [k]/[g], which is a little inconsistent, >but with <g> not even showing up at all in the names, I felt adopting >it would be going too far. > >2. I added umlaut as part of the inflectional system, hence y and ø. > >[snip] > >As for the Americanisms - I was either 6 or 8 when I devised the >names. When I became more linguistically astute I played with >Spanishizing them to /zan/ (instead of /z&n/) and /tisor/ or even >/tysor/ and found the change unsatisfactory. I then abbreviated Tysor >to T'sor /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/. (In the current transliteration, <'> == /@/). > >[snip] > > -- > Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I'm working with Adpihi & Reptigan as my conlangs. For both languages I came up with the names first; in the case of Adpihi also with one word/clause ("/adpihi/", in case you were wondering). I was 8yo or younger when I started on Adpihi and a teenager still living at home when I started on Reptigan. In my fifties I'm now finally conlanging in a more informed manner. But one of my problems has been coming up with phonologies/phonetics/phonotactics I like that will allow the names Adpihi and Reptigan, and a lexicon that will give them the meanings I want. Is that a problem commonly faced by conlangers? Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ 4b. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou) Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:47 am ((PDT)) In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 15:38:19), Eldin Raigmore wrote: > ---In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >[snip] > >OK, let me back up a bit. The proper names were the starting point. > >From them I derived the language as it currently stands, with some > >phonological features that aren't obvious from those names. > > > >1. No phonemic voice. Tysor is phonemically Dyzor. Hence the lack of > ><s>es (and <t>s, for that matter) in the text. I kept <k> as the > >phonemic representation for [k]/[g], which is a little inconsistent, > >but with <g> not even showing up at all in the names, I felt adopting > >it would be going too far. > > > >2. I added umlaut as part of the inflectional system, hence y and ø. > > > >[snip] > > > >As for the Americanisms - I was either 6 or 8 when I devised the > >names. When I became more linguistically astute I played with > >Spanishizing them to /zan/ (instead of /z&n/) and /tisor/ or even > >/tysor/ and found the change unsatisfactory. I then abbreviated Tysor > >to T'sor /[EMAIL PROTECTED]/. (In the current transliteration, <'> == /@/). > > > >[snip] > > > > -- > > Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I'm working with Adpihi & Reptigan as my conlangs. For both languages I > came up with the names first; in the case of Adpihi also with one > word/clause ("/adpihi/", in case you were wondering). I was 8yo or younger > when I started on Adpihi and a teenager still living at home when I started > on Reptigan. > > In my fifties I'm now finally conlanging in a more informed manner. But > one of my problems has been coming up with > phonologies/phonetics/phonotactics I like that will allow the names Adpihi > and Reptigan, and a lexicon that will give them the meanings I want. > > Is that a problem commonly faced by conlangers? Speaking solely for myself: always. Although I sometimes "cheat" and change the name of the language. Velyan has had about four, not including variants of "Velyan". Jeff -- "Please understand that there are small European principalities devoted to debating Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction." -- Cameron Laird Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ 4c. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou) Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:24 am ((PDT)) On 7/10/07, Jeff Rollin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > Although I sometimes "cheat" and change the name of the language. Velyan has > had about four, not including variants of "Velyan". Lessee: Mephaehi (<ph>=/f/), Mephali, Mefali, Methkaeki (<th>=/T/)... Nope, totally unfamiliar with that sort of cheating. <whistle> -- Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ 4d. Re: Incorporating the sins of our youth (was: Here we go loup-garou) Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:29 am ((PDT)) In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 16:23:02), Mark J. Reed wrote: > On 7/10/07, Jeff Rollin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > > Although I sometimes "cheat" and change the name of the language. Velyan > > has had about four, not including variants of "Velyan". > > Lessee: Mephaehi (<ph>=/f/), Mephali, Mefali, Methkaeki (<th>=/T/)... > > Nope, totally unfamiliar with that sort of cheating. > > <whistle> Heheh. But what about Saumia to Terttu to Valian to Velian to Velyan, with possibly some in between? ;-) Jeff. -- "Please understand that there are small European principalities devoted to debating Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction." -- Cameron Laird Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 5a. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:55 am ((PDT)) >ROGER MILLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >My favorites (and I have to watch myself in proper discourse) are: >Hoobert Heever (Pres. of the US just before FDR) and "one swell foop" - >- leftovers from schooldays. If you've attended a religious service which includes readings from a Sacred Scripture, you have probably heard some humorous instances. Genesis 15:17 tells of a flaming brazier (New American Bible translation). I once heard "a flaming brassiere." Luke 16:26, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus tells of a great abyss. I have heard "a great abbess." Both of these mispronunciations bring interesting pictures to mind! Charlie Messages in this topic (18) ________________________________________________________________________ 5b. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:08 am ((PDT)) In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 16:44:00), caeruleancentaur wrote: > >ROGER MILLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >My favorites (and I have to watch myself in proper discourse) are: > >Hoobert Heever (Pres. of the US just before FDR) and "one swell foop" - > >- leftovers from schooldays. > > If you've attended a religious service which includes readings from a > Sacred Scripture, you have probably heard some humorous instances. > > Genesis 15:17 tells of a flaming brazier (New American Bible > translation). I once heard "a flaming brassiere." > > Luke 16:26, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus tells of a great > abyss. I have heard "a great abbess." > > Both of these mispronunciations bring interesting pictures to mind! > > Charlie You'd think God would tell them (and Bush) how to pronounce stuff properly. Totally nukular. Jeff -- "Please understand that there are small European principalities devoted to debating Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction." -- Cameron Laird Messages in this topic (18) ________________________________________________________________________ 5c. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:29 am ((PDT)) On 7/10/07, caeruleancentaur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Luke 16:26, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus tells of a great > abyss. I have heard "a great abbess." Could have been worse. I believe at least one version of the Bible translates that as "a deep abyss".. I used to pronounce <brazier> as homphonous with "brassiere" as well. The word doesn't come up that often, but it was (is?) the trademarked hamburger name of the Dairy Queen restaurant chain. -- Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Messages in this topic (18) ________________________________________________________________________ 5d. Re: CHAT: English is SO HARD, even the English can't speak it Posted by: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:40 am ((PDT)) In a message dated 7/10/2007 11:33:56 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I used to pronounce <brazier> as homphonous with "brassiere" as well. > The word doesn't come up that often, but it was (is?) the trademarked > hamburger name of the Dairy Queen restaurant chain. > Long live Dairy Queen! stevo </HTML> Messages in this topic (18) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 6.1. Re: digraphs Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:58 am ((PDT)) Den 9. jul. 2007 kl. 15.37 skrev Mark J. Reed: > > > I love the sound of the name Zaragoza [Ta4a'GoTa] myself. I can > just repeat it over and over... Funny loves people have. What about the American Hispanics. What do they make of the z? > Still, <z> for /T/ is at least weirder than Lars's other example of > German. > My Deutsch is rusty, but doesn't <z> represent /ts/? That seems > pretty normal to me. Well, the normal is /z/. Italians do it like the Germans, but have a voiced variant too. Another weird use is in some Scottish names, like Menzies, Dalziel, MacKenzie, where it replaces the former yogh. LEF Messages in this topic (35) ________________________________________________________________________ 6.2. Re: digraphs Posted by: "Jeff Rollin" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT)) In the last episode, (On Tuesday 10 July 2007 16:56:41), Lars Finsen wrote: > Den 9. jul. 2007 kl. 15.37 skrev Mark J. Reed: > > I love the sound of the name Zaragoza [Ta4a'GoTa] myself. I can > > just repeat it over and over... > > Funny loves people have. What about the American Hispanics. What do > they make of the z? > > > Still, <z> for /T/ is at least weirder than Lars's other example of > > German. > > My Deutsch is rusty, but doesn't <z> represent /ts/? That seems > > pretty normal to me. > > Well, the normal is /z/. Italians do it like the Germans, but have a > voiced variant too. Another weird use is in some Scottish names, like > Menzies, Dalziel, MacKenzie, where it replaces the former yogh. > > LEF Hmm. "Mingus" is getting quite a lot of traction over here due to the fame/infamy of the third party's leader, and "Dee-el and Pascoe" is the name of a popular TV show, But I've always heard "MacKenzie" as "Mak'enzi:" Jeff -- "Please understand that there are small European principalities devoted to debating Tcl vs. Perl as a tourist attraction." -- Cameron Laird Messages in this topic (35) ________________________________________________________________________ 6.3. Re: digraphs Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:27 am ((PDT)) On 7/10/07, Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Funny loves people have. What about the American Hispanics. What do > they make of the z? In Latin American Spanish, there is no pronunciation difference between <z> and <s>; both are /s/. Note that in Spanish, the pronunciation of <z> is also the pronunciation of "soft" <c>, that is, <c> before <e> or <i>. So Peninsular /graTias/, Latino /grasias/. > Well, the normal is /z/. By whose definition of "normal"? :) -- Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Messages in this topic (35) ________________________________________________________________________ 6.4. Re: digraphs Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:26 am ((PDT)) Den 10. jul. 2007 kl. 18.22 skrev Mark J. Reed: > In Latin American Spanish, there is no pronunciation difference > between <z> and <s>; both are /s/. Interesting. Norwegians do it the same way, though all our <z> words are foreign. 'Zoologi' for example is /sulogi/. >> Well, the normal is /z/. > > By whose definition of "normal"? :) Well, that's what it was invented for. And what I *expect* when I see it. Allow me a little subjectivity here. Of course, apparently the usages have diverged somewhat. Den 10. jul. 2007 kl. 18.07 skrev Jeff Rollin: > Hmm. "Mingus" is getting quite a lot of traction over here due to the > fame/infamy of the third party's leader, and "Dee-el and Pascoe" is > the name of a popular TV show, But I've always heard "MacKenzie" as > "Mak'enzi:" Yes, even Menzies is sometimes pronounced with a /z/ nowadays. And I must say Mak'enzi has a tougher, more tartan-claymore-bannockburnish ring to it than Mak'enyi, maybe that's the reason for the choice... LEF Messages in this topic (35) ________________________________________________________________________ 6.5. Re: digraphs Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT)) On 7/10/07, Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Well, the normal is /z/. > > > > By whose definition of "normal"? :) > > Well, that's what it was invented for. Depending on what you mean by "invented". There's evidence that the letter it comes from stood for /dz/ originally, and that's the value it had in early Latin. But sound changes conflated /dz/ and /r/, rendering <z> redundant, so it was dropped by the Classical period. When it was later re-borrowed from Greek, it was to represent /z/, which existed in Greek but not Latin; but it was quite possibly pronounced /dz/ in Vulgar Latin even then. -- Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Messages in this topic (35) ________________________________________________________________________ 6.6. Re: digraphs Posted by: "Andreas Johansson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT)) Quoting Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Den 10. jul. 2007 kl. 18.22 skrev Mark J. Reed: > > > In Latin American Spanish, there is no pronunciation difference > > between <z> and <s>; both are /s/. > > Interesting. Norwegians do it the same way, though all our <z> words > are foreign. 'Zoologi' for example is /sulogi/. In Swedish it's usually /s/, but /ts/ in eg. _pizza_ and the prefix _schizo-_. Andreas Messages in this topic (35) ________________________________________________________________________ 6.7. Re: digraphs Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:53 pm ((PDT)) On 7/10/07, Andreas Johansson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In Swedish it's usually /s/, but /ts/ in eg. _pizza_ and the prefix _schizo-_. So it parallels the English pronunciation. /s/ where we have /z/, but /ts/ where we have /ts/. -- Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Messages in this topic (35) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 7a. Re: Restricted clusters? Posted by: "caeruleancentaur" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT)) >Jeff Rollin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >3) Anyone know of a conlang that has two (or more) tones and has to >use different diacritics to represent them over different letters >(e.g. high and low tone over front and back vowels?) Senjecas has three tones which I call high, middle, and low (creative, huh?). I indicate the high tone with a double acute accent, the middle with an acute accent. The low is unmarked. If the double accent is not available, I use a circumflex. Charlie Messages in this topic (8) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/ <*> Your email settings: Digest Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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