There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Umu: Charter for Compassion
From: A. Mendes
2a. Thank you for LCC4
From: Arnt Richard Johansen
2b. Re: Thank you for LCC4
From: John Q
2c. Re: Thank you for LCC4
From: David Edwards
2d. Re: Thank you for LCC4
From: Philip Newton
2e. Re: Thank you for LCC4
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
2f. Re: Thank you for LCC4
From: Peter Bleackley
2g. Re: Thank you for LCC4
From: Irina Rempt
3a. Re: Inhaled Sounds
From: Michael Everson
4. Negation strategies
From: Arnt Richard Johansen
5. Do artlang video games support universal grammar hypothesis?
From: MorphemeAddict
Messages
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1. Umu: Charter for Compassion
Posted by: "A. Mendes" andrewtmen...@gmail.com
Date: Mon May 16, 2011 9:27 am ((PDT))
I just made made a big step with Umu and translated half of the first line
of the Charter for Compassion.
This is my isolating morphology attempt.
I used the classifiers, not with modification as originally planned, but
with compounds. I caught the compound bug hard but tried to deconstruct each
one, adhering to my comment-topic and/or definitiveness arrangements.
There's also a vowel harmony shift that is completely unused at this
juncture. I think I'll play with that more when I really get into syntax.
This sencence is easier because it doesn't have a verb (or so it seems).
I previously treated compounding like modification, but this exercise had
really challenged that and left me confused. The two are still muddled in my
mind though. I really liked the world building bit.
Please have a look and send me your comments: Umu: Charter for
Compassion<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xRc_JJlkRdrg9-7zIs1NozHGs-xdNWX1fq3hW_QrYdE/edit?hl=en&authkey=CMOJ5rsE>
Cheers
Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Thank you for LCC4
Posted by: "Arnt Richard Johansen" a...@nvg.org
Date: Mon May 16, 2011 10:17 am ((PDT))
I've come back from my marvellous adventure in Groningen quite excited and
energized. LCC4 was a stimulating, fascinating, gezellig, very |ole-|ǿkø
experience. As much as I embrace the wonders of the Internet and modern
technology, there really is something to be said for meeting like-minded people
in person. Not only because of the “wow, there actually are other people like
me” aspect, but also because you have the pleasure of discussing fairly arcane
aspects of our craft without having to introduce them to the fundamentals first.
To those of you who were there, thank you so much! Special thanks go to
Christophe Grandsire-Kovoets for organizing the practical parts so well (having
the hotel 5 min away from conference centre made for a relaxing experience),
and to the Americans for putting up with the long flight and the jet lag just
so *I* didn't have to. :-)
To those of you who were not there, I hope to see you some other time. Yes,
it's fun to follow the live video stream, or watch the recorded talks[1],
that's what I did during and after LCC3. But if you ask me, you missed out on
the best parts of the conference: what happened between the talks, during
lunch, and at the restaurants & pub. If you get the chance to visit an LCC,
don't hesitate, SIGN UP!
---
[1] LCC4 photos, video, & transcripts: http://bit.ly/bundles/saizai/3
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Hic est Olaus Brummus
Ursus paulus silvanos
Tiddeli-tiddeli bummus
Mi nomen Brummus est
Messages in this topic (7)
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2b. Re: Thank you for LCC4
Posted by: "John Q" jquijad...@gmail.com
Date: Mon May 16, 2011 9:31 pm ((PDT))
I watched part of each day's LCC4 activities via the stream. Being in
California, the time difference only allowed me to see the end of each day,
but it looked like a lot of fun. The Relay was fun to watch!
I second Arnt's congratulations to Christophe for pulling it all together
logistics-wise. Nice to know it all went smoothly and according to plan. I
know how Arnt feels about actually being in attendance at an LCC -- I was at
the first two and the vibe was great. So fun to be able to revel in geekery
with your fellow conlangers.
Congrats also to Sylvia Sotomayor and David Peterson for making the long
trek from California. Besides them, were there others from across Belegaer
in attendance?
(Speaking of the LCC4 Relay, exactly how DID the head of the deer suddenly
re-appear in the translations? Or was it a hare by that point?)
--John Q.
Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: Thank you for LCC4
Posted by: "David Edwards" dedwa...@stanford.edu
Date: Tue May 17, 2011 12:47 am ((PDT))
I haven't gotten through all of the videos yet, but everything looks
amazing;
I hope I'm able to attend in person next time! The relay was indeed
hilariously
fun to watch.
Concerning the sudden reappearance of the hare's head: that was me.
I decided to veer more in the direction of a "retelling" of the story rather
than
a direct translation (and it showed--in the video, after David finished
reading
my text, I heard someone say "That's not a translation, that's..." but I
couldn't
hear the last part). I've done a lot of development with the storytelling
tradition
of Feayran's speakers, so there are certain conventions that have to be
followed
depending on what genre a given story falls into. I mention some of them in
the
"Notes on the Text" section of my torch if anyone's interested.
As to how that brought back the goat-turned-deer-turned-hare's head:
I retold this story within the _myth_ genre, and Feayran myths are most
often
comical and told for their entertainment value. Feayran humor, in turn,
relies
heavily on trickery.
So to make the story funnier, the woman wasn't just traveling innocently
along
when she ran into Hare--rather, she was deliberately trying to trick him out
of his
hiding place so she could eat him. But since her goal was to eat him, it
didn't make
sense for her to throw the body into the river. So instead, I had her remove
the
noisy part and only throw that into the water...not realizing that's what
had happened
in previous texts!
And that is how Feayran humor preserves translation integrity. ;)
Props to David Peterson for taking a shot at Feayran! If anyone would care
to
take up his challenge and go through the Feayran torch, I'd really
appreciate
any pointers on how to improve the presentation of the lexicon and grammar
points to make it easier for next time.
Best,
David Edwards
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:30 PM, John Q <jquijad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I watched part of each day's LCC4 activities via the stream. Being in
> California, the time difference only allowed me to see the end of each day,
> but it looked like a lot of fun. The Relay was fun to watch!
>
> I second Arnt's congratulations to Christophe for pulling it all together
> logistics-wise. Nice to know it all went smoothly and according to plan.
> I
> know how Arnt feels about actually being in attendance at an LCC -- I was
> at
> the first two and the vibe was great. So fun to be able to revel in
> geekery
> with your fellow conlangers.
>
> Congrats also to Sylvia Sotomayor and David Peterson for making the long
> trek from California. Besides them, were there others from across Belegaer
> in attendance?
>
> (Speaking of the LCC4 Relay, exactly how DID the head of the deer suddenly
> re-appear in the translations? Or was it a hare by that point?)
>
> --John Q.
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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2d. Re: Thank you for LCC4
Posted by: "Philip Newton" philip.new...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 17, 2011 12:59 am ((PDT))
On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 19:13, Arnt Richard Johansen <a...@nvg.org> wrote:
[much good stuff]
Enthusiastically seconded!
For me, too, it was an exhilarating experience - not least the novelty
of being able to enthuse about language and having others actually
share the interest! And there was some great food for thought in the
presentations.
I'll also join Arnt in expressing my thanks to all those who made the
conference possible, and made it possible in Europe at that!
And the face-to-face experience - meeting other conlangers "in real
life", such as during the social parts of the weekend - was also
priceless
On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 06:30, John Q <jquijad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Congrats also to Sylvia Sotomayor and David Peterson for making the long
> trek from California. Besides them, were there others from across Belegaer
> in attendance?
I think those were the only two who came over from Leftpondia; I think
everyone else in attendance was from Europe. (Well, came to the
conference from Europe; at least two were Americans living in Europe.)
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.new...@gmail.com>
Messages in this topic (7)
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2e. Re: Thank you for LCC4
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 17, 2011 1:23 am ((PDT))
On 17 May 2011 09:47, David Edwards <dedwa...@stanford.edu> wrote:
> I haven't gotten through all of the videos yet, but everything looks
> amazing;
> I hope I'm able to attend in person next time! The relay was indeed
> hilariously
> fun to watch.
>
> Concerning the sudden reappearance of the hare's head: that was me.
>
> I decided to veer more in the direction of a "retelling" of the story
> rather
> than
> a direct translation (and it showed--in the video, after David finished
> reading
> my text, I heard someone say "That's not a translation, that's..." but I
> couldn't
> hear the last part).
I think that was me :) . I said: "That's not a translation, that's a
complete rewrite!" :) .
> I've done a lot of development with the storytelling
> tradition
> of Feayran's speakers, so there are certain conventions that have to be
> followed
> depending on what genre a given story falls into. I mention some of them in
> the
> "Notes on the Text" section of my torch if anyone's interested.
>
>
I'll have to read those :) .
> As to how that brought back the goat-turned-deer-turned-hare's head:
>
> I retold this story within the _myth_ genre, and Feayran myths are most
> often
> comical and told for their entertainment value. Feayran humor, in turn,
> relies
> heavily on trickery.
>
> So to make the story funnier, the woman wasn't just traveling innocently
> along
> when she ran into Hare--rather, she was deliberately trying to trick him
> out
> of his
> hiding place so she could eat him. But since her goal was to eat him, it
> didn't make
> sense for her to throw the body into the river. So instead, I had her
> remove
> the
> noisy part and only throw that into the water...not realizing that's what
> had happened
> in previous texts!
>
> And that is how Feayran humor preserves translation integrity. ;)
>
>
It basically says that your humour and David's humour are similar. Good, I
like that sort of humour :) .
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (7)
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2f. Re: Thank you for LCC4
Posted by: "Peter Bleackley" peter.bleack...@rd.bbc.co.uk
Date: Tue May 17, 2011 1:38 am ((PDT))
staving Arnt Richard Johansen:
> To those of you who were not there, I hope to see you some other
> time. Yes, it's fun to follow the live video stream, or watch the
> recorded talks[1], that's what I did during and after LCC3. But if
> you ask me, you missed out on the best parts of the conference: what
> happened between the talks, during lunch, and at the restaurants&
> pub. If you get the chance to visit an LCC, don't hesitate, SIGN UP!
>
Indeed, although this was the nearest LCC has ever been to me,
circumstances didn't allow it this year. I'm looking forward to when I
can actually make it - I have an idea for a talk already.
Pete
Messages in this topic (7)
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2g. Re: Thank you for LCC4
Posted by: "Irina Rempt" ir...@valdyas.org
Date: Tue May 17, 2011 1:51 am ((PDT))
On Tuesday 17 May 2011 10:37:56 you wrote:
> Indeed, although this was the nearest LCC has ever been to me,
> circumstances didn't allow it this year. I'm looking forward to when I
> can actually make it - I have an idea for a talk already.
Same here, except the idea for a talk-- I was actually asked to speak but I
couldn't think of anything of general interest.
Irina
--
Vesta veran, terna puran, farenin.
Beghinnen can ick, volherden will' ick, volbringhen sal ick.
New blog: http://valdyas.org/fo3
Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: Inhaled Sounds
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Mon May 16, 2011 10:49 am ((PDT))
On 15 May 2011, at 23:30, Justin Gagnon wrote:
> I am trying to create a language that has inhaled phonemes, I'm just not sure
> what would be possible and if anything like this has ever existed. Tell me
> anything you can add.
The Extended IPA used to describe speech disorders has some characters which
can be used to indicate inhalation. So [p↓] is an ingressive [p] and [e↓] is an
inhaled [e].
John Rhys Davies' Treebeard spoke both with ingression and egression.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (7)
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4. Negation strategies
Posted by: "Arnt Richard Johansen" a...@nvg.org
Date: Mon May 16, 2011 11:19 am ((PDT))
One of the many thoughts that have popped up in my head as a result of LCC4 is
unusual ways to mark clausal negation.
My main project, Ciktal (which, alas, is just a sketchlang on steroids)
essentially just copies the Finnish solution: have a main verb “does not” (fi
“ei”, Ciktal “mar-”), and embed the negated verb phrase with some special
conjugation inside the main verb phrase. This in itself is not so unusual, vide
WALS: http://wals.info/chapter/112
Another idea is that languages vary as to whether they express the same idea as
just a single verb, or as verb + object noun.
Norwegian:
Høn-a verp- er.
hen-DEF.F lay.egg-PRES
'The hen lays an egg.'
Conversely, Twi:
tow atade
throw clothing
'iron [with a flat iron/steam iron]'
So one way to turn an ordinary construct into an exotic construct is to
lexicalise object incorporation, or to split up a specific verb into a
generalized verb plus an object noun.
You've probably guessed what I'm getting at. Consider a negative verb phrase
that means “is not”, and is composed of a verb with an object noun. What would
the semantic content of the two components be? This is where my imagination
stops. Any suggestions?
Negative particles are sometimes analyzed as adverbs. But why stop with adverb
roots? One could use (and here I have been greatly inspired by Henrik
Theiling's LCC4 talk) complete adverbials. English and many other languages
have structures like “by no means”, which can be used as emphatic negation: “By
no means have I had enough sleep.”
In a naturalistic context it is difficult to see a construct like that as the
primary or only means of clausal negation, but it does not seem wildly
implausible that it could be reduced, by historical change, to an inseparable
negative particle.
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Kortet Deres er beholdt.
Messages in this topic (1)
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5. Do artlang video games support universal grammar hypothesis?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Mon May 16, 2011 8:27 pm ((PDT))
http://www.kurzweilai.net/artificial-language-video-game-provides-evidence-for-chomskys-universal-grammar-hypothesis?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=e4e5e58579-UA-946742-1&utm_medium=email
stevo
Messages in this topic (1)
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