There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. More toylang developments
From: H. S. Teoh
2a. THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Leonardo Castro
2b. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Tony Harris
2c. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: George Corley
2d. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Leonardo Castro
2e. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: George Corley
2f. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Leonardo Castro
2g. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Padraic Brown
2h. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Roger Mills
2i. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Michael Everson
2j. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Michael Everson
2k. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Leonardo Castro
3a. Re: Conlang punctuation.
From: Michael Everson
3b. Re: Conlang punctuation.
From: Michael Everson
4. Call for Posters: Loncon 3
From: Beinhoff, Bettina
Messages
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1. More toylang developments
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 12:08 pm ((PDT))
So, my "whimsical" alien "toylang" is turning out to be not quite such a
toylang after all. There has been some new developments in grammar, but
I still can't figure out what that /xr/ sound is supposed to be!
1) Grammar
While the existence of real verbs is not yet ruled out, the current data
seem to suggest a rather exotic way of verb formation via verbalization,
possessives, and adverb-like datives. Here's an example:
a) Start with the noun _gruŋ_ "hands", and one can add the -en 1SG
possessive suffix to make _gruŋgen_ "my hands" (with a linking /g/).
b) Tack on the verbalizer -mi, to make a verb _gruŋgemi_ (from
*gruŋgenmi; /nm/ is simplified to just /m/), meaning "to handle", "to
grab", "to manipulate with the hands", etc..
c) It's not always clear what kind of handling is meant, though; take
for example the clause:
gruŋgemi itseŋgu
gruŋ-en-mi itseŋ-u
hands-1SG.POSS-V glass_dome-PAT
I handle the glass dome.
(The -u suffix, based on current data, appears to mark the direct object
in a transitive clause, or a patient-like role, hence -PAT.)
d) However, this clause is unclear how the speaker is handling the glass
dome: is he grabbing it, smashing it, shutting it, or opening it? To
disambiguate, it appears that a dative construction is used with an
adverb-like meaning:
gruŋgemi itseŋgu axshapftu
gruŋ-en-mi itseŋ-u axshapf-tu
hands-1SG.POSS glass_dome-PAT outside-DAT
I open up the glass dome.
The bare noun _axshapf_ ['AxSVpf] means "outside" or "out in the open",
and the dative _axshapftu_ appears to be used in the sense of "out to
the open air" or something along those lines. Hence, taken together, it
means to handle the glass dome such that it opens out to the outside
air, that is, "I open up the glass dome".
2) Trills
I'm struggling with the IPA transcription of the word _ehrlu_, which is
tentatively transcribed as ['ExrlU], but I'm unsure what the /xr/
actually is. It's definitely some kind of trill, but I'm having trouble
figuring out whether it's a /x/-colored *alveolar* trill, or a retroflex
trill, or maybe even an uvular trill. It's heavily /x/-colored (as
opposed to _gorlu_ ['gOrlU] where /r/ is a pure alveolar trill), but a
little research online indicates that there's no such thing as a velar
trill.
I'm thinking that perhaps there are two allophones here, a voiceless
/xR`/ and a /x/-colored voiceless alveolar trill (maybe palatal? I'm not
sure). In the former case, it's [x] followed by a gargling sound, which
I *think* is an uvular trill?
In the latter, it appears to be [x] followed by an apical trill, but the
POA seems to be more postalveolar than true alveolar (not like I'd know
though; this is the first time in my life I've ever been able to
pronounce an apical trill!). Is there such a sound as a postalveolar
trill?? The way I pronounce it is [x] followed by some kind of vibration
in the back of the mouth that immediately transfers to the tip of the
tongue while holding it somewhat close to the palate.
In both cases, it's voiceless, and heavily [x]-colored. Perhaps it's
just a voiceless alveolar trill contrasting with the /r/ in _gorlu_,
which is voiced? Any ideas as to what sound this is?
(And yes, I'm blatantly ignoring the fact that this "toylang" is
supposed to be spoken by stereotypical green spherical aliens with two
arms, two legs, and an eye on an eyestalk, so human phonotactics
shouldn't even apply. But you *could* pretend the above analysis is for
the benefit of the voice-actors playing the role of these creatures.
;-))
T
--
Three out of two people have difficulties with fractions. -- Dirk Eddelbuettel
Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 1:14 pm ((PDT))
Hi!
Do native anglophone understand [aɪ] as a long version of [ɪ] ?
Is it seen as a coincidence that both are represented as <i> ?
Or is it an association that is independent of writing?
Are the following other short-long associations?
<a> : [æ] - [eɪ]
<o> : [ɔ] - [oʊ]
<e> : [ɛ] - [ɪi] or [ɪj]
<u> : [ʊ] - [iu] or [ju] (as one says "an universe", I guess that it
starts with the consonant [j])
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Tony Harris" t...@alurhsa.org
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 1:22 pm ((PDT))
Yes indeed, that is what we are taught in school, although I might say
it's more [aj] than [aɪ], but that could be because IPA is not my
strongest skill. But yes, the vowel associations you give are what I
remember from my very first year in school. Other than that we, at
least here in New England, do not ever say "an universe" or "an user" or
"an unicorn", but rather we use "a" for the indefinite article in front
of each of those. "u" may be a long vowel, but subconsciously I guess
we recognize it's really consonant+vowel in pronunciation.
Because it's what is taught, I suspect if I asked 10 monolingual English
speakers here in Vermont to give the long and short versions of the 5
vowels, they would recite exactly the sounds you present (albeit
probably with a bit of Vermont nasalization involved...).
On 07/02/2013 04:14 PM, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Do native anglophone understand [aɪ] as a long version of [ɪ] ?
>
> Is it seen as a coincidence that both are represented as <i> ?
> Or is it an association that is independent of writing?
>
> Are the following other short-long associations?
>
> <a> : [æ] - [eɪ]
> <o> : [ɔ] - [oʊ]
> <e> : [ɛ] - [ɪi] or [ɪj]
> <u> : [ʊ] - [iu] or [ju] (as one says "an universe", I guess that it
> starts with the consonant [j])
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 1:25 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Do native anglophone understand [aɪ] as a long version of [ɪ] ?
>
Consciously: sometimes, due to definitions in traditional grammar. But
phonologically there's no real basis for it.
> Is it seen as a coincidence that both are represented as <i> ?
> Or is it an association that is independent of writing?
>
It's due to historical sound changes. The two sounds derive from actual
long-short versions of the same vowel (I believe it's /i/ in this case),
which got moved apart due to the Great Vowel Shift.
> Are the following other short-long associations?
>
> <a> : [æ] - [eɪ]
> <o> : [ɔ] - [oʊ]
> <e> : [ɛ] - [ɪi] or [ɪj]
> <u> : [ʊ] - [iu] or [ju] (as one says "an universe", I guess that it
> starts with the consonant [j])
>
I think you mistyped -- it is "a universe", not "*an universe", and that
would be consistent with "universe" beginning with a consonant. I'm not
sure about [ɪi] -- I always thought it was [i:]
But basically, they are not phonologically long and short version, but
historically they were, and the terminology got frozen in traditional
grammar.
Messages in this topic (11)
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2d. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 1:46 pm ((PDT))
2013/7/2 Tony Harris <t...@alurhsa.org>:
> Yes indeed, that is what we are taught in school, although I might say it's
> more [aj] than [aɪ], but that could be because IPA is not my strongest
> skill. But yes, the vowel associations you give are what I remember from my
> very first year in school. Other than that we, at least here in New
> England, do not ever say "an universe" or "an user" or "an unicorn", but
> rather we use "a" for the indefinite article in front of each of those. "u"
> may be a long vowel, but subconsciously I guess we recognize it's really
> consonant+vowel in pronunciation.
>
> Because it's what is taught, I suspect if I asked 10 monolingual English
> speakers here in Vermont to give the long and short versions of the 5
> vowels, they would recite exactly the sounds you present (albeit probably
> with a bit of Vermont nasalization involved...).
Nice!
BTW, now I remember someone telling me that the "typical anglophone"
would not be able to pronounce some short vowels, such as [æ], without
a following consonant (that's why plain <a> is pronounced as [aɪ], I
guess). But if you ask someone on the street "Pronounce a short a?",
they will be able to pronounce [æ], isn't it? Or will they give
examples in words? Or will they simply pronounce a fast [aɪ].
2013/7/2 George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com>:
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> Do native anglophone understand [aɪ] as a long version of [ɪ] ?
>>
>
> Consciously: sometimes, due to definitions in traditional grammar. But
> phonologically there's no real basis for it.
>
>
>> Is it seen as a coincidence that both are represented as <i> ?
>> Or is it an association that is independent of writing?
>>
>
> It's due to historical sound changes. The two sounds derive from actual
> long-short versions of the same vowel (I believe it's /i/ in this case),
These historical sound changes caused the first <a> of "nation" and
"national" to be pronounced in different ways, so I was wondering if
the existence of many pairs like this ended up creating a strong
psychological association independent of ortography.
> which got moved apart due to the Great Vowel Shift.
>
>
>> Are the following other short-long associations?
>>
>> <a> : [æ] - [eɪ]
>> <o> : [ɔ] - [oʊ]
>> <e> : [ɛ] - [ɪi] or [ɪj]
>> <u> : [ʊ] - [iu] or [ju] (as one says "an universe", I guess that it
>> starts with the consonant [j])
>>
>
> I think you mistyped -- it is "a universe", not "*an universe", and that
Yes. Exactly!
> would be consistent with "universe" beginning with a consonant. I'm not
> sure about [ɪi] -- I always thought it was [i:]
I saw [ij] and [ɪi] for the first time in this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Vowels
>
> But basically, they are not phonologically long and short version, but
> historically they were, and the terminology got frozen in traditional
> grammar.
Messages in this topic (11)
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2e. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 1:58 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>wrote:
> 2013/7/2 Tony Harris <t...@alurhsa.org>:
> > Yes indeed, that is what we are taught in school, although I might say
> it's
> > more [aj] than [aɪ], but that could be because IPA is not my strongest
> > skill. But yes, the vowel associations you give are what I remember
> from my
> > very first year in school. Other than that we, at least here in New
> > England, do not ever say "an universe" or "an user" or "an unicorn", but
> > rather we use "a" for the indefinite article in front of each of those.
> "u"
> > may be a long vowel, but subconsciously I guess we recognize it's really
> > consonant+vowel in pronunciation.
> >
> > Because it's what is taught, I suspect if I asked 10 monolingual English
> > speakers here in Vermont to give the long and short versions of the 5
> > vowels, they would recite exactly the sounds you present (albeit probably
> > with a bit of Vermont nasalization involved...).
>
> Nice!
>
> BTW, now I remember someone telling me that the "typical anglophone"
> would not be able to pronounce some short vowels, such as [æ], without
> a following consonant (that's why plain <a> is pronounced as [aɪ], I
> guess). But if you ask someone on the street "Pronounce a short a?",
> they will be able to pronounce [æ], isn't it? Or will they give
> examples in words? Or will they simply pronounce a fast [aɪ].
>
"Long a" is [eɪ] in most dialects. And it's not necessarily that they can't
pronounce the sound in isolation, but that English phonotactics don't allow
it, so it doesn't appear in words (though I think in some dialects it is
possible -- vowels vary to an incredible degree in English, most
generalizations people state are from a particular standard dialect).
> 2013/7/2 George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com>:
> > On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> Do native anglophone understand [aɪ] as a long version of [ɪ] ?
> >>
> >
> > Consciously: sometimes, due to definitions in traditional grammar. But
> > phonologically there's no real basis for it.
> >
> >
> >> Is it seen as a coincidence that both are represented as <i> ?
> >> Or is it an association that is independent of writing?
> >>
> >
> > It's due to historical sound changes. The two sounds derive from actual
> > long-short versions of the same vowel (I believe it's /i/ in this case),
>
> These historical sound changes caused the first <a> of "nation" and
> "national" to be pronounced in different ways, so I was wondering if
> the existence of many pairs like this ended up creating a strong
> psychological association independent of ortography.
This is the infamous "tri-syllabic laxing" rule. It's been a big issue for
phonologists for a long time, since there's no way to fit the inputs and
outputs into natural classes. Early work by Chompsky actually suggested
that the Great Vowel Shift is actually still active in contemporary
English, though no one believes that any more. The current theory is that
it's a "lexical rule" that applies earlier in the process and doesn't
follow the same restrictions as a normal phonological rule.
Messages in this topic (11)
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2f. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 4:18 pm ((PDT))
2013/7/2 George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com>:
>> These historical sound changes caused the first <a> of "nation" and
>> "national" to be pronounced in different ways, so I was wondering if
>> the existence of many pairs like this ended up creating a strong
>> psychological association independent of ortography.
>
>
> This is the infamous "tri-syllabic laxing" rule. It's been a big issue for
Very interesting! Does this happens only in proparoxytones?
> phonologists for a long time, since there's no way to fit the inputs and
> outputs into natural classes. Early work by Chompsky actually suggested
> that the Great Vowel Shift is actually still active in contemporary
> English, though no one believes that any more. The current theory is that
> it's a "lexical rule" that applies earlier in the process and doesn't
> follow the same restrictions as a normal phonological rule.
BTW, is there something similar to the Great Vowel Shift and this
short-monophthong-long-diphthong association in any other languages?
Messages in this topic (11)
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2g. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 6:07 pm ((PDT))
> From: Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
>
> BTW, now I remember someone telling me that the "typical anglophone"
> would not be able to pronounce some short vowels, such as [æ], without
> a following consonant (that's why plain <a> is pronounced as [aɪ], I
> guess). But if you ask someone on the street "Pronounce a short a?",
> they will be able to pronounce [æ], isn't it? Or will they give
> examples in words? Or will they simply pronounce a fast [aɪ].
You might get [æ], or you might get [a]. [æ] I don't think is a particularly
short
sound. If you asked me, I'd most likely respond "a as in father". Though I
think historically, that one was a long [a:]... :/
> 2013/7/2 George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com>:
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Leonardo Castro
> <leolucas1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> Do native anglophone understand [aɪ] as a long version of [ɪ] ?
Yes. Mind you, this is because English phonology, like the rest of English
grammar *as taught in grammar schools*, is all messed up. The grammar
we learn is English-as-if-it-were-Latin, with its nicely laid out conjugations
full of Latinesque tenses and the phonology is just as screwy, as evidenced
by your use of "long" vs. "short". English (at least in the US) doesn't
contrast long and short vowels. As you've guessed, we contrast short vowels
with diphthongs; but we also have lots of extra vowels that don't really
contrast with anything, or that could stand in for one of the others in a pinch.
>> Consciously: sometimes, due to definitions in traditional grammar. But
>> phonologically there's no real basis for it.
>>
>>
>>> Is it seen as a coincidence that both are represented as <i> ?
>>> Or is it an association that is independent of writing?
>>>
>>
>> It's due to historical sound changes. The two sounds derive from actual
>> long-short versions of the same vowel (I believe it's /i/ in this
> case),
>
> These historical sound changes caused the first <a> of "nation"
> and
> "national" to be pronounced in different ways, so I was wondering if
> the existence of many pairs like this ended up creating a strong
> psychological association independent of ortography.
No, I think we, as any very young children do, absorb the weirdness of
English and take it all in stride. We just accept that the letter A has half
a dozen different pronunciations and move on with life. It's not a big deal.
I know this is not an easy concept for non-native speakers. Missus, for
example, continually struggles with these sorts of pairs: /netSju:r/ vs.
/nætSrl/ (nature vs. natural, having the same contrast as your example).
>> which got moved apart due to the Great Vowel Shift.
>>
>>
>>> Are the following other short-long associations?
>>>
>>> <a> : [æ] - [eɪ]
>>> <o> : [ɔ] - [oʊ]
>>> <e> : [ɛ] - [ɪi] or [ɪj]
>>> <u> : [ʊ] - [iu] or [ju] (as one says "an universe", I guess that it
>>> starts with the consonant [j])
Pretty much, though anymore I have dropped the whole "long" and "short"
terminology, because it just doesn't fit the reality. The reality is more like
we have
short vowels: [a], [ɛ], [ɪ], [ɔ], [ʌ], [ə]; mid-length vowels: [æ], [ɔ], [ʌ];
long vowels: [a:], [e:], [i:], [o:], [u:]; diphthongs: [aj], [ej], [oj], [aw],
[iw],
[ow], [ja], [ji], [jo], [ju]; syllabics: [r], [l], [m], [n]. And the famous
"silent
E", which causes a kind of orthographic umlaut on a preceding vowel:
bat /bæt/ ~ bate /be:t/. YMMV. And there's probably a bunch I left out of
the list; and possibly not everyone will agree with the list in the first place!
>> I think you mistyped -- it is "a universe", not "*an
> universe", and that
>
> Yes. Exactly!
NB: "an + u..." has historically been quite correct. Take for example a snippet
from Fox's Book of Martyrs: "...Nay, thou deceivest thyself with a fond
imagination
of such an unity as is among the enemies of Christ. Were not the false prophets
in
an unity?..." or this book title: "Cyclopaedia: or, An Universal Dictionary of
Arts
and Sciences"
I suspect what matters here is that we've actually got an *INVISIBLE LETTER*
at the start of these words apparently starting with a U ... er ... "an U"???
:))) I
also suspect that the sorts of people who read books like Fox's or Cyclopaedia
actually pronounced /æn unIti/ & /æn univɛrsal/.
We do the same thing, only in reverse, with H: an honor, an hourly wage (when
the aitch
is silent); but a hermitage and a horse (when the aitch is pronounced). The
invisible wye
causes the indefinite article to be realised as "an", as does the silent aitch.
>> would be consistent with "universe" beginning with a consonant.
> I'm not
>> sure about [ɪi] -- I always thought it was [i:]
>
> I saw [ij] and [ɪi] for the first time in this article:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Vowels
>
>>
>> But basically, they are not phonologically long and short version, but
>> historically they were, and the terminology got frozen in traditional
>> grammar
Right.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (11)
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2h. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Jul 2, 2013 8:00 pm ((PDT))
As others have pointed out, those are the _traditional_ descriptions given to
those sounds to first/second graders when we're learning to read/write.
Actually, for "o" we were taught: long o (phonetically [oU]), as in "note",
short o [a] as in "not" (We're talking Amer. English here, not
British....;-))))
When _phonemics_ came along in the early 20th C., the "long" vowels were
transcribed as diphthongs--
"long e" [i] = /iy/, "long a" [e] = /ey/ and so on. The Brits write their
phonemics differently-- long e [i] is /i:/, long a [e] is /e:/ or /eI/ I'm not
sure which.
Thus the rule of Engl. phonotactics, that the "short vowels" cannot occur in a
#CV# open syllable; it must be CVC.
The [e] ~ [æ] as in "nation, national" et al. variation (and similar others)
was dealt with at length in Chomsky & Halle's Sound Patterns of English....
more rules than one could deal with :-((((
________________________________
From: Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 4:14 PM
Subject: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Hi!
Do native anglophone understand [aɪ] as a long version of [ɪ] ?
Is it seen as a coincidence that both are represented as <i> ?
Or is it an association that is independent of writing?
Are the following other short-long associations?
<a> : [æ] - [eɪ]
<o> : [ɔ] - [oʊ]
<e> : [ɛ] - [ɪi] or [ɪj]
<u> : [ʊ] - [iu] or [ju] (as one says "an universe", I guess that it
starts with the consonant [j])
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (11)
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2i. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:20 am ((PDT))
On 2 Jul 2013, at 21:14, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <i> : [ɪ] - [aɪ]
> <a> : [æ] - [eɪ]
> <o> : [ɔ] - [oʊ]
> <e> : [ɛ] - [ɪi] or [ɪj]
> <u> : [ʊ] - [iu] or [ju] (as one says "an universe", I guess that it starts
> with the consonant [j])
Well maybe the last would be [ʊ] - [u] more generically.
This reminds me of one of the nice uses Axel Wijk makes of silent -e in his
Regularized English.
mit, mite [mɪt maɪt]
mat, mate [mæt meɪt]
mot, mote [mɔt moʊt] (mot, an Irish term for a young woman, esp. a girlfriend)
met, mete [mɛt mijt]
foot, moote [fʊt mut]
Extending it to the ‹oo› digraph was very clever indeed.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (11)
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2j. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:21 am ((PDT))
On 2 Jul 2013, at 21:45, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BTW, now I remember someone telling me that the "typical anglophone" would
> not be able to pronounce some short vowels, such as [æ], without
> a following consonant
Naaaaah.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (11)
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2k. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 5:03 am ((PDT))
2013/7/2 Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com>:
>> From: Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
>
> No, I think we, as any very young children do, absorb the weirdness of
> English and take it all in stride. We just accept that the letter A has half
> a dozen different pronunciations and move on with life. It's not a big deal.
>
> I know this is not an easy concept for non-native speakers.
Well, as a native speaker of a Portuguese dialect in which <o> and <e>
can be pronounced as [u] and [i] in some environments and <x> can be
pronounced as [ks], [s], [S] or [z], it's not very difficult to accept
the occurrence of different pronunciations for a letter, although it
really feels to be too much in English.
> Missus, for
> example, continually struggles with these sorts of pairs: /netSju:r/ vs.
> /nætSrl/ (nature vs. natural, having the same contrast as your example).
It's interesting that "nation" and "national" are very obviously
related to each other in spelling although the letters don't sound the
same. OTOH, we have Portuguese "nação" (nation) that is not very
obviously related to "nacional" (national), althought their
pronunciations are completely previsible from spelling.
2013/7/3 Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com>:
> As others have pointed out, those are the _traditional_ descriptions given to
> those sounds to first/second graders when we're learning to read/write.
>
> Actually, for "o" we were taught: long o (phonetically [oU]), as in "note",
> short o [a] as in "not" (We're talking Amer. English here, not
> British....;-))))
>
> When _phonemics_ came along in the early 20th C., the "long" vowels were
> transcribed as diphthongs--
> "long e" [i] = /iy/, "long a" [e] = /ey/ and so on. The Brits write their
> phonemics differently-- long e [i] is /i:/, long a [e] is /e:/ or /eI/ I'm
> not sure which.
In my Kobo eReader dictionary, the "long vowels" (diphthongs) seems to
be transcribed with an overline above the corresponding letters.
>
> Thus the rule of Engl. phonotactics, that the "short vowels" cannot occur in
> a #CV# open syllable; it must be CVC.
In some old e-mail conversations with Justin B. Rye, I could get some
details of what he imagined for an English spelling reform.
Apparently, most English words *look* as if they ended in consonant,
because all long vowels would get a final <y>, <w> or <h> :
be -> biy
shampoo -> shampuw
law -> loh
Ra -> Rah
Naturally, these are my guesses about his reform, as he states that
details of it are unlikely to be available:
"Details of my proposal for a Revolting Orthography (modestly entitled
Romanised English) are unlikely ever to become available; for now I
want to get it clearly established exactly how mad this scheme is."
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ortho.html
2013/7/3 Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com>:
> On 2 Jul 2013, at 21:14, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> <i> : [ɪ] - [aɪ]
>> <a> : [æ] - [eɪ]
>> <o> : [ɔ] - [oʊ]
>> <e> : [ɛ] - [ɪi] or [ɪj]
>> <u> : [ʊ] - [iu] or [ju] (as one says "an universe", I guess that it starts
>> with the consonant [j])
>
> Well maybe the last would be [ʊ] - [u] more generically.
>
> This reminds me of one of the nice uses Axel Wijk makes of silent -e in his
> Regularized English.
>
> mit, mite [mɪt maɪt]
> mat, mate [mæt meɪt]
> mot, mote [mɔt moʊt] (mot, an Irish term for a young woman, esp. a girlfriend)
> met, mete [mɛt mijt]
> foot, moote [fʊt mut]
>
> Extending it to the ‹oo› digraph was very clever indeed.
Indeed. As an authomatic reaction, I looked for something similar for <ee>.
2013/7/3 Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com>:
> On 2 Jul 2013, at 21:45, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> BTW, now I remember someone telling me that the "typical anglophone" would
>> not be able to pronounce some short vowels, such as [æ], without
>> a following consonant
>
> Naaaaah.
I hear you saying [na:].
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Conlang punctuation.
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:06 am ((PDT))
On 1 Jul 2013, at 17:06, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are there rules governing conlang punctuation?
>
> I meant to ask awhile back about this, but kept forgetting.
> I think mine uses a period as a coma.
>
> Can I invent my own punctuation?
You can, but there is a very great many wonderful punctuation characters
already encoded.
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2000.pdf
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2E00.pdf
Look at all them dots. :-)
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Conlang punctuation.
Posted by: "Michael Everson" ever...@evertype.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 2:12 am ((PDT))
On 1 Jul 2013, at 16:33, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Nice that it mentioned non-breaking spaces *before* two-part punctuation in
> French :) . I've always felt the absence of space in English made signs like
> ! and ? too close to the preceding word for comfort.
Oh, I've always felt the French habit to be a typing error. And having typeset
Alice in standard French and three dialects of French, I can say only that I
despair at all those non-breaking punctuation spaces.
> Note however that in good French typography the size of the space *before*
> the punctuation is not the same as the size of the space *after* it. The
> space after punctuation is a normal space (similar to the one between words),
> while the space before punctuation should be a thin space, about a fifth to a
> sixth of an em-width. Unfortunately, web typography usually doesn't allow an
> easy way to type in non-breaking thin spaces�
That is true.
> Another peculiar punctuation is that of Modern Greek, which uses the
> semi-colon as a question mark, while the role of the semi-colon is taken over
> by the raised dot.
It was doing that before the Latin punctuation character usage was codified.
> In principle, the role of the colon should also be taken by the raised dot,
Why? Only if that were a part of the manuscript tradition.
> but in practice most Greek speakers now simply use the colon.
Practical folk. :-)
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4. Call for Posters: Loncon 3
Posted by: "Beinhoff, Bettina" bettina.beinh...@anglia.ac.uk
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 3:55 am ((PDT))
Please see below for a call for posters which may be of interest to some
members of this list.
*Submissions in the area of linguistics are strongly encouraged*
The call deadline is 1st April 2014, so there is still plenty of time left.
Any enquiries should be directed to Dr Nicholas Jackson (University of Warwick)
<nicholas.jack...@warwick.ac.uk> (who is the Poster and Peer Review
Coordinator).
Best wishes,
Bettina
*********************************
(I would be very grateful if you could circulate this call for posters among
colleagues at other institutions).
Call for Posters (Science and Social Science)
Sponsored by Anglia Ruskin University.
Loncon 3, the World Science Fiction Convention, 2014, is calling for posters
for its Science and Social Science Exhibits. We welcome posters which will
present the cutting edge of research in our universities.
Context:
The 72nd annual World Science Fiction Convention will take place in London, in
August 2014. There will be over 5,000 visitors to the exhibit hall. Previous
conventions have included a strong and varied programme of scientific talks and
panel discussions, in which specialists explain recent research or some other
aspect of their chosen field to an interested and educated lay audience. A
large proportion of science fiction fans are interested in science and
mathematics; many have first or higher degrees in a science subject, and many
work as professional scientists or researchers in academia or industry.
In 2014, in addition to a wide range of scientific talks and discussions, the
committee intend to run a poster session in the main exhibition hall, and are
keen to invite participation from the wider academic community. This is an
opportunity for those working in science, mathematics and related fields
interested in the impact agenda, to explain their recent and ongoing research
to an interested, educated lay audience.
-------------
Poster Proposals to: Dr. Nicholas Jackson, Warwick University:
nicholas.jack...@warwick.ac.uk
Deadline for Poster Proposals: 1st April 2014 (acceptances by 1st May).
Presenters of accepted poster will have free access to the Exhibits Hall that
can be upgraded to a full membership for £50.
Posters should be: A1 (or nearest equivalent to 841 x 594 mm/33.1 x 23.4);
horizontal and vertical presentations are acceptable.
(If you wish bring to bring an exhibit to accompany the poster, please include
details in the submission.)
Poster and Peer Review Coordinator: Dr Nicholas Jackson (University of Warwick)
nicholas.jack...@warwick.ac.uk
All submissions will be subject to an anonymous peer-review process and the
final selections made on the academic, scientific and expository merit of the
individual posters.
Peer Reviewers currently include:
Astronomy/Astrophysics: Dr David Clements (Imperial College, London)
Life Sciences/Medicine: Dr Helen Priddle (CRGW)
Computer Science: Dr Nicholas Gibbins (University of Southampton)
History of Science: Dr Shana Worthen (University of Arkansas at Little Rock)
Linguistics: Dr Bettina Beinhoff (Anglia Ruskin University), Prof. Jane Setter
(University of Reading)
Mathematics: Dr Nicholas Jackson (University of Warwick)
Geology/Chemistry: Dr Louisa Preston (Open University); Dr Anna Croft,
(University of Nottingham); Dr Sara Fortuna (University of Udine)
Physics: Professor Nigel J Mason OBE (Open University)
Archeological Science: Professor Edward James (University College Dublin,
Emeritus)
Other disciplines welcome.
Farah Mendlesohn <exhib...@loncon3.org>
Loncon 3 is the trading name of London 2014 ltd, a company limited by
guarantee, registered in England, company number: 7989510. Registered Office:
First Floor, 5 Walker Terrace, Gateshead, NE8 1EB
------------------------------
Dr. Bettina Beinhoff
Lecturer in Applied Linguistics and English Language
Anglia Ruskin University
East Road, Cambridge CB1 1PT
United Kingdom
bettina.beinh...@anglia.ac.uk
--
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as world-leading in the Research Assessment Exercise (RAE) 2008, they were:
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Literature; Geography & Environmental Studies; History; Music; Psychology and
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