There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Rolling your R's
From: David McCann
1b. Re: Rolling your R's
From: Cosman246
2a. Re: Creoles
From: David McCann
3a. "Even if"
From: H. S. Teoh
3b. Re: "Even if"
From: Lisa Weißbach
3c. Re: "Even if"
From: Leonardo Castro
Messages
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1a. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:53 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:45:53 -0300
Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder how common it is for people to be unable to pronounce sounds
> of other accents of their own language...
The British /r/ is a coronal approximant, but I have never managed
either that or the flap, despite trying every piece of advice offered
to foreign learners! Like quite a few, I use a uvular approximant. Up
in the North East they have the uvular fricative (a pronunciation
called a Durham burr) and I can do that, or a real Parisian trill.
Incidentally, I don't use /r/ in words like "trip" and "drip", where
the initial comes out as as an apical coronal affricate, as
distinguished from the laminal one in "chip" and "gyp".
Messages in this topic (18)
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1b. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "Cosman246" yashtuls...@gmail.com
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:10 am ((PDT))
I can do a uvular trill, but not alveolar. I wonder how one could learn...
-Yash Tulsyan
On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 7:53 AM, David McCann <da...@polymathy.plus.com>wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:45:53 -0300
> Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder how common it is for people to be unable to pronounce sounds
> > of other accents of their own language...
>
> The British /r/ is a coronal approximant, but I have never managed
> either that or the flap, despite trying every piece of advice offered
> to foreign learners! Like quite a few, I use a uvular approximant. Up
> in the North East they have the uvular fricative (a pronunciation
> called a Durham burr) and I can do that, or a real Parisian trill.
> Incidentally, I don't use /r/ in words like "trip" and "drip", where
> the initial comes out as as an apical coronal affricate, as
> distinguished from the laminal one in "chip" and "gyp".
>
Messages in this topic (18)
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2a. Re: Creoles
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:10 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:27:45 -0400
Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right. I figure, I don't really know how Creoles work.
A group of foreigners arrive and need to talk to the locals. Either
they cannot be bothered to learn the local language, or the locals are
not interested in teaching them. You end up with a few foreign words
being used with a bit of local grammar: a pidgin. Sometimes it gets
native speakers, more vocabulary and a more regular grammar, and then
it's a creole.
In Tok Pisin (New Guinea) you can say
Mi kaikai planti kaukau pinis, mi no hangre.
meaning
I've eaten so much sweet potato that I'm not hungry.
Some words are English and some (kaikai, kaukau) are local. The grammar
is not English: "kaikai ... pinis" replaces "have eaten", although
"pinis" is actually from "finish". Sometimes they add grammar that
seems necessary to the locals, although not to English-speakers.
Intransitive and transitive verbs are distinguished: op "be open" but
op-im "open something". Pronouns have a dual: mi "I", mipela
"we" (plural), mitupela "we" (dual).
Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. "Even if"
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:31 am ((PDT))
What's the linguistic term for conjunctions like "even if", or "be it
that ..."?
I've discovered the first multi-clause construction in my alien conlang,
in which an indicative clause is coupled with an imperative/hortative
construction, but the latter isn't interpreted as an imperative, but
rather an "even if" kind of meaning.
For starters, here's how imperatives are constructed:
ang tzapjakmi shestu.
ang tzapjak-mi shest-tu.
IMP.2SG feet-V here-DAT
[You(sg)] come over here!
Here's a simple indicative clause:
tseÅmi gruÅgen itseÅteku
tseÅ-mi gruÅ-en itseÅ-tek-u
shatter-V hands-1SG.POSS glass_dome-2SG.POSS-PAT
I shatter your glass dome (with my hands).
If we append the first clause to the second, the meaning of the
imperative construction changes:
tseÅmi gruÅgen itseÅteku, ang
tzapjakmi shestu.
tseÅ-mi gruÅ-en itseÅ-tek-u ang
tzapjak-mi shest-tu
shatter-V hands-1SG.POSS glass_dome-2SG.POSS-PAT even_if.2SG feet-V
here-DAT
I [will] shatter your glass dome (with my hands), even if you come here!
The use of the imperative/hortative construction appears to be a kind of
strengthening, threat, or disregard: You come here, and I'll *still*
shatter your glass dome!
Similar constructions can be used to express such sentiments as:
"I'm flying out to the warzone, whether or not the enemy comes"; or
"I'm going out there, let the many-eyed monsters come if they may!"; or
"I'm gonna do this, let catastrophe result if it will!"
What's the term for this type of construction? Emphatic? Some kind of
subjunctive perhaps?
T
--
If it tastes good, it's probably bad for you.
Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: "Even if"
Posted by: "Lisa Weißbach" purereasonrevoluz...@web.de
Date: Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:29 pm ((PDT))
Hi!
Tania Kuteva calls these kinds of constructions "inconsequential", a
grammatical category which is used to express that an action was taken in
vain, i.e. that it didn't lead to the expected or wished-for consequences.
This was actually one of the topics for my oral final exam a few years ago,
which is why she sent me an introductory manuscript in which she cites
examples from Papua New Guinea language Hua:
hako-mana-(o)
seek-1SG-INCONSEQUENTIAL-(CLAM.VOC)
'I sought (but couldn't find)!'
'I looked (in vain)!'*
Ke-hu-mana. (Kmivaro' a'bre)
talk-do.1-INCONSEQUENTIAL
'I talked to him: (but he didn't listen to me.)'**
*cited from Haiman, John 1988. Inconsequential clauses in Hua and the
typology of clauses. In: Haiman, John and Sandra Thompson (eds.) 1988.
Clause combining in grammar and discourse. Amsterdam: John Benjamins, pp.
49-69, here: p. 53.
**cited from Haiman, John 1980. HUA: A Papuan language of the Eastern
Highlands of New Guinea. Amsterdam: John Benjamins B.V., here: p. 158.
(Yes, the punctuation looks like that in the manuscript.)
Apparently, Haiman describes pre-contact Hua as not even having a word for
"try" - although there was a conative morpheme, which could actually be
combined with the inconsequential morpheme:
Ke-hu-ko-mana (Kta d hau re)
talk-do-CONATIVE-INCONSEQUENTIAL
'I tried to talk (but it was too hard for me to do so).' (Haiman 1980: 159)
Russian seems to have a similar category usually referred to as the
"unsuccessful conative" where a verb in the imperfect is contrasted with
the same verb in a negated perfect form: V.IMPERFECT but not V.PERFECT 'I
tried to V but in the end I didn't V'. This contrast highlights the
counterfactual modality of the imperfect, which chimes with your choice of
an imperative morphology since the imperative also has a counterfactual
feel to it.
The Romanian presumptive mood can in some cases express a similar meaning:
Nu vÄ uitaÅ£i la mine, da-mi place, fraÅ£ilor, Å£igancÄ o fi, treaba ei.
Don't be upset, my friends, I have to tell you that I like her - she may be
a gypsy, so what?***
***Ganea, Alina and Anca Gâţâ 2008: Equivalences of the Romanian
Presumptive Verbal Form in French. In: Croitoru, Elena and Floriana Popescu
(eds.): Translation Studies: Retrospective and Prospective Views.
Proceedings of the Third Conference (Third Volume). Year I, issue 3.
Galaţi: Galaţi University Press, pp. 97-103, here: p. 102. (The English
translation is mine; it's based on the French translation given in the
article, since I don't speak Romanian.)
English more commonly uses lexical means to express this meaning, such as
in phrases like "no matter what/where/when", "no use V-ing", "so what?",
"for all I care", "just the same",...
What you're describing seems to me to be semantically similar to this
inconsequential category - the action of you coming here is expected to
result in me not shattering your glass dome, but this expectation is not
met because I will still shatter it, whether you come or not. Your last two
examples are a bit trickier to fit into this scheme, though, because
language is taking a mental shortcut here: the most important bit of
information is left out, namely that the "action taken in vain" is the mere
prospective thought of many-eyed monsters or a catastrophe assumed to
prevent the speaker from "going out there" or "doing this" now, not the
monsters or the catastrophe themselves (because they haven't
appeared/happened yet - so how could they prevent anyone from doing
anything now?). Still, I think that the semantics are comparable enough
(hey, that sentence was an inconsequential too - once you've got to know
them, you'll start seeing them everywhere).
Hope that helps - or that it is at least a push in the right direction :)
Lisa
2013/7/18 H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx>
> What's the linguistic term for conjunctions like "even if", or "be it
> that ..."?
>
> I've discovered the first multi-clause construction in my alien conlang,
> in which an indicative clause is coupled with an imperative/hortative
> construction, but the latter isn't interpreted as an imperative, but
> rather an "even if" kind of meaning.
>
> For starters, here's how imperatives are constructed:
>
> ang tzapjakmi shestu.
> ang tzapjak-mi shest-tu.
> IMP.2SG feet-V here-DAT
> [You(sg)] come over here!
>
> Here's a simple indicative clause:
>
> tseÅmi gruÅgen itseÅteku
> tseÅ-mi gruÅ-en itseÅ-tek-u
> shatter-V hands-1SG.POSS glass_dome-2SG.POSS-PAT
> I shatter your glass dome (with my hands).
>
> If we append the first clause to the second, the meaning of the
> imperative construction changes:
>
> tseÅmi gruÅgen itseÅteku, ang
> tzapjakmi shestu.
> tseÅ-mi gruÅ-en itseÅ-tek-u ang
> tzapjak-mi shest-tu
> shatter-V hands-1SG.POSS glass_dome-2SG.POSS-PAT even_if.2SG
> feet-V here-DAT
> I [will] shatter your glass dome (with my hands), even if you come
> here!
>
> The use of the imperative/hortative construction appears to be a kind of
> strengthening, threat, or disregard: You come here, and I'll *still*
> shatter your glass dome!
>
> Similar constructions can be used to express such sentiments as:
> "I'm flying out to the warzone, whether or not the enemy comes"; or
> "I'm going out there, let the many-eyed monsters come if they may!"; or
> "I'm gonna do this, let catastrophe result if it will!"
>
> What's the term for this type of construction? Emphatic? Some kind of
> subjunctive perhaps?
>
>
> T
>
> --
> If it tastes good, it's probably bad for you.
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: "Even if"
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:23 am ((PDT))
2013/7/18 H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx>:
> What's the linguistic term for conjunctions like "even if", or "be it
> that ..."?
Maybe an emphatic adversative conjunctive adjunct.
>
> I've discovered the first multi-clause construction in my alien conlang,
> in which an indicative clause is coupled with an imperative/hortative
> construction, but the latter isn't interpreted as an imperative, but
> rather an "even if" kind of meaning.
This reminds me of this:
"Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
>
> For starters, here's how imperatives are constructed:
>
> ang tzapjakmi shestu.
> ang tzapjak-mi shest-tu.
> IMP.2SG feet-V here-DAT
> [You(sg)] come over here!
>
> Here's a simple indicative clause:
>
> tseÅmi gruÅgen itseÅteku
> tseÅ-mi gruÅ-en itseÅ-tek-u
> shatter-V hands-1SG.POSS glass_dome-2SG.POSS-PAT
> I shatter your glass dome (with my hands).
>
> If we append the first clause to the second, the meaning of the
> imperative construction changes:
>
> tseÅmi gruÅgen itseÅteku, ang
> tzapjakmi shestu.
> tseÅ-mi gruÅ-en itseÅ-tek-u ang
> tzapjak-mi shest-tu
> shatter-V hands-1SG.POSS glass_dome-2SG.POSS-PAT even_if.2SG feet-V
> here-DAT
> I [will] shatter your glass dome (with my hands), even if you come
> here!
>
> The use of the imperative/hortative construction appears to be a kind of
> strengthening, threat, or disregard: You come here, and I'll *still*
> shatter your glass dome!
>
> Similar constructions can be used to express such sentiments as:
> "I'm flying out to the warzone, whether or not the enemy comes"; or
> "I'm going out there, let the many-eyed monsters come if they may!"; or
> "I'm gonna do this, let catastrophe result if it will!"
>
> What's the term for this type of construction? Emphatic? Some kind of
> subjunctive perhaps?
>
>
> T
>
> --
> If it tastes good, it's probably bad for you.
Messages in this topic (3)
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