There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: OT: Web hosting services
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
1b. Re: OT: Web hosting services
From: C. Brickner
2a. Re: Jul17 inflections
From: H. S. Teoh
2b. Re: Jul17 inflections
From: neo gu
2c. Re: Jul17 inflections
From: neo gu
3a. Re: ping
From: Padraic Brown
4a. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Padraic Brown
4b. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
4c. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Njenfalgar
4d. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Matthew George
4e. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Daniel Prohaska
4f. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Padraic Brown
5a. searching for missing words
From: MorphemeAddict
5b. Re: searching for missing words
From: Padraic Brown
6a. Re: Fwd: "Even if"
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
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1a. Re: OT: Web hosting services
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" la...@quandary.org
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:18 am ((PDT))
On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 03:04:37PM +0200, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 27 July 2013 06:52, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > For those who have their own web sites, what web hosting service do
> > you use? Why?
> >
> One of the services of the Language Creation Society is to provide its
> members with free web hosting. Check
> http://conlang.org/about-the-lcs/web-hosting/ for more details.
Just on the off chance Leonardo was talking about non-conlang-related
applets, I would point out that any content hosted on the LCS webspace
has to be related to conlanging.
tylakèhlpë'fö,
Amanda
Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: OT: Web hosting services
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:07 pm ((PDT))
>One of the services of the Language Creation Society is to provide its
>members with free web hosting. Check
>http://conlang.org/about-the-lcs/web-hosting/ for more details.
>
>Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
>
Ǧẽẽron, Èéxdemóónuẽs!
Iâve been doing conlanging for several decades. I began with a pencil and a
spiral notebook! Now I have a laptop. My problem is that, while Iâm really
great with pencil and paper, Iâm not so great with a computer. I know how to
use my WordPerfect, but Iâm really download-shy. I went to the LCS page that
Cristophes recommended. Frankly, I donât understand the technical details on
the page.
Iâd greatly appreciate it if someone would help me (privately). Iâd
especially like to know if my WP documents can simply be copied to my LCS
website.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
súreĩĩðe,
Charlie
Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Jul17 inflections
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:34 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 04:42:30PM -0400, neo gu wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:30:01 -0700, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 02:54:25PM -0400, neo gu wrote:
> >> To avoid confusion, I'm going to try to use a minimum of terminology.
> >[...]
> >> Examples:
> >>
> >> man-give-B1-C4-E8 crumb-find-B2-C4-E8 cockroach-eat-B1-C4-E3
> >> "The man fed the cockroach a crumb."
> >[...]
> >
> >Actually, I find this even more confusing than using *some* kind of
> >terminology. My brain can deal with unusual terminology -- at least
> >there's some kind of semantic handle there to hold on to -- whereas when
> >it's just letters and numbers, I zone out.
>
> Other people seem to have a problem with my terminology. How about
>
> man-give-DIR-AOR-SEC crumb-find-INV-AOR-SEC cockroach-eat-DIR-AOR-FAC
>
> Actually, DIR (for these verbs), AOR, and SEC end up as 0, but are
> given in the interlinear as a reminder.
Well, it would help if you define what those acronyms mean. ;-) And if
you explain your terminology. Non-standard terminology is kinda hard to
figure out without explanation, y'know?
[...]
> >This sounds rather similar to Henrik Theiling's Trukva, in which
> >sentences aren't built from subject, verb, object, instead,
> >everything is built from adverbials (intransitive verb + noun):
> >
> > http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s30/
>
> Thanks for the link! I knew there were conlangs besides Peter
> Bleackley's iljena that combined noun and verb but couldn't think of
> any. Trukva is rather different in detail.
I don't really know the details of Trukva very well; I just remembered
glancing over it and noting its interesting structure.
My new alien conlang, OTOH, takes things to the opposite extreme, in
that the meaning usually carried by a verb is sorta distributed across
*nouns*. There's an instrumental case marker -mi which behaves half the
time like a verbalizer, and the other half the time like a nominal
instrumental case. So to say something like "I speak to you", the
language renders it as:
ehrlunemi kuhteku
ehrlu-en-mi kuh-tek-u
tongue-1SG.POSS-INSTR ear-2SG.POSS-ACC
The meaning of "to speak" is mostly implied by the verbalization of
"tongue", but also carried by "ear", since, conceivably, saying
_bufteku_ (lit. "your body") instead could mean "I lick you" instead.
A particularly striking example of this odd distribution of verbal
meaning across nouns is in the following pair of examples:
voluÅtekmi gruÅgen dastu
voluÅ-tek-mi gruÅ-en dast-tu
spaceship-2SG.POSS-INSTR hands-1SG.POSS there-DAT
I fly your spaceship there.
voluÅtekmi bufen dastu
voluÅ-tek-mi buf-en dast-tu
spaceship-2SG.POSS-INSTR body-1SG.POSS there-DAT
I ride your spaceship there.
The idea of "fly"/"ride" is supplied by the instrumental/verbalized noun
"spaceship"; whereas the distinction between them is indicated by
whether it's my hands that's handling the spaceship, or my body that's
passively sitting in it. :)
[...]
> >> Each verb has either a single explicit argument (expressed by the
> >> preceding noun or pronoun) or an explicit argument and an implicit
> >> one (to be identified later). Slot B specifies the relationship
> >> between the 2 arguments:
> >[...]
> >
> >What happens to slot B if only an explicit argument is needed?
>
> With the new phonology, slot B is 0 if the verb has only one inherent
> argument. Previously, it had to be one of the valence reduction
> suffixes B3 (ANT), B4 (PAS), or B5 (RFX), depending on the verb
> subclass. If it has two inherent arguments, valence reduction must
> still be used, since 0 is used for the default voice, either B1 (DIR)
> or B2 (INV), depending on the verb subclass.
I see, that makes sense.
T
--
Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've
forgotten this before.
Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: Jul17 inflections
Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:48 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 08:33:00 -0700, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 04:42:30PM -0400, neo gu wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:30:01 -0700, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 02:54:25PM -0400, neo gu wrote:
>> >> To avoid confusion, I'm going to try to use a minimum of terminology.
>> >[...]
>> >> Examples:
>> >>
>> >> man-give-B1-C4-E8 crumb-find-B2-C4-E8 cockroach-eat-B1-C4-E3
>> >> "The man fed the cockroach a crumb."
>> >[...]
>> >
>> >Actually, I find this even more confusing than using *some* kind of
>> >terminology. My brain can deal with unusual terminology -- at least
>> >there's some kind of semantic handle there to hold on to -- whereas when
>> >it's just letters and numbers, I zone out.
>>
>> Other people seem to have a problem with my terminology. How about
>>
>> man-give-DIR-AOR-SEC crumb-find-INV-AOR-SEC cockroach-eat-DIR-AOR-FAC
>>
>> Actually, DIR (for these verbs), AOR, and SEC end up as 0, but are
>> given in the interlinear as a reminder.
>
>Well, it would help if you define what those acronyms mean. ;-) And if
>you explain your terminology. Non-standard terminology is kinda hard to
>figure out without explanation, y'know?
Then should I redo the original post with terminology?
>[...]
>> >This sounds rather similar to Henrik Theiling's Trukva, in which
>> >sentences aren't built from subject, verb, object, instead,
>> >everything is built from adverbials (intransitive verb + noun):
>> >
>> > http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s30/
>>
>> Thanks for the link! I knew there were conlangs besides Peter
>> Bleackley's iljena that combined noun and verb but couldn't think of
>> any. Trukva is rather different in detail.
>
>I don't really know the details of Trukva very well; I just remembered
>glancing over it and noting its interesting structure.
I'll need to read it again, more carefully. Unlike you and Henrik, I don't
speak any form of Chinese, although I've wanted to learn Sino-Japanese.
>My new alien conlang, OTOH, takes things to the opposite extreme, in
>that the meaning usually carried by a verb is sorta distributed across
>*nouns*.
[...]
I've been reading those posts. I have no comment other than "interesting".
>
>T
>
>--
>Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've
>forgotten this before.
Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: Jul17 inflections
Posted by: "neo gu" qiihos...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:52 pm ((PDT))
This version uses terminology.
In the latest sketch (Jul17), each noun or pronoun is paired with a verb and
vice-versa. The noun or pronoun precedes the verb. Example:
crumb-find cockroach-eat (inflections omitted)
A noun may have a prefix specifying definiteness and number.
A verb has 5 suffix slots. The 1st one (A) is derivational while the others are
inflectional. Slot D (which now precedes slot C) is for negation.
Each verb has either a single explicit argument (expressed by the preceding
noun or pronoun) or an explicit argument and an implicit one (to be identified
later). Slot B specifies the relationship between the 2 arguments:
DIR direct - The explicit argument "acts on" the implicit one.
INV inverse - The implicit argument "acts on" the explicit one.
ANT antipassive - The explicit argument "acts on" someone or something
unspecified.
PAS passive - Someone or something unspecified "acts on" the explicit
argument.
RFX reflexive - The explicit argument "acts on" itself.
If the verb has only a single argument (univalent), slot B is unmarked.
Slot E combines a couple semantic categories.
IMP imperative - identifies a direct command
JUS jussive - identifies a wish or an indirect command or a suggestion etc.
FAC factual - identifies a factual statement
CTF contrafactual - identifies a contrafactual statement
PQ polar question - identifies a yes/no question
Each of the above appears at the end of a sentence. The next 2 terminate
subordinate constructions that act as the implicit argument for the following
word-pair.
OPT optative - identifies an imagined, but possible, situation
SUB subjunctive - identifies an actual situation
SEC secondary - identifies one of 2 things:
* a resulting situation
* a situation in effect (before, during, or after some subsequent one)
ATT attributive - also has 2 uses:
* is used only if the verb has an implicit argument; it indicates that this
word-pair modifies the following noun.
* is used only if the verb lacks the implicit argument, including those with
ANT, PAS, or RFX marked. It indicates that the verb modifies its own explicit
argument.
Slot C is more complicated; the specific interpretation depends on the suffix
for slot E. AOR is used only on dynamic verbs. First, the labels:
FUT "future"
PRS "present"
PRF "perfect"
AOR "aorist"
If FAC, CTF, or PQ is present:
FUT the situation occurs at some future time, whether known or not
PRS the situation is occurring
PRF depends on the verb:
* if the verb is dynamic, the situation occurs at some unknown past time
* if the verb is static, the situation occurs at some past time, whether
known or not
AOR the situation occurs at a known past time
If SUB, SEC, or ATT is present:
FUT the situation occurs at some later time
PRS the situation is in progress at the time indicated by context
PRF the situation occurs at some earlier time
AOR the situation occurs at the time indicated by context
If IMP, JUS, or OPT is present:
FUT the situation is ready to occur at some future time
PRS the situation is occurring at some future time
PRF the situation is complete by some future time
AOR the situation occurs at some future time
Examples:
man-give-DIR-AOR-SEC crumb-find-INV-AOR-SEC cockroach-eat-DIR-AOR-FAC
"The man fed the cockroach a crumb."
meat-raw-PRS-SEC dog-eat-DIR-FUT-FAC
"The dog will eat the meat raw."
cat-black-PRS-ATT house-in-INCH-INV-PRS-SEC woman-release-DIR-PRF-FAC
"The woman has put the black cat in the house."
INCH = inchoative, entry to a state
house-in-INV-PRS-ATT cat-black-PRS-FAC
The cat in the house is black."
crumb-eat-INV-AOR-OPT cockroach-want-DIR-PRS-FAC
"The cockroach wants to eat the crumb."
meat-raw-PRS-SEC dog-eat-DIR-PRF-SUB man-see-DIR-PRF-FAC
"The man saw that the dog had eaten the meat raw."
("see" is static)
Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Re: ping
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:25 am ((PDT))
> From: Elsa Nilaj <elsanila...@gmail.com>
>
> hey guys uhm im new to this whole thing and uhm can one of you tell how
> this works? My friend David J. Peterson recommended it so I joined but to
> be honest I have no idea how to work anything on it so yeah.. hope you help
Greetings!
Well, you've already mastered the fine art of actually posting to the list. So,
that
about covers all the technical aspects.
I can only suppose David recommended you to the list because a) you're a nut,
b) you've made a language, c) both of the above or e) none of the above. What
follows now is basics of any group: who are you, what brings you here, you have
an
interest in languages in general, constructed languages in specific, if so,
what sorts?
Have you made / are you making / are you planning on making a conlang (or two
or four)? Are you also interested in world building, alt-history, RPGs, etc.?
Where
are you located, do you speak any languages other than English? Are you a writer
(novelist, poet, etc)? Are you a composer of music and / or song?
Any one of these other arts could meet and mingle with conlanging.
If you have made a language, it's generally very appropriate for you to
introduce
it -- interesting points of grammar or phonology, syntactical weirdness, example
texts to show it off. If you have audio or video of yourself using the language,
posting links to those files would certainly be of interest. Otherwise, usual
netiquette applies.
You're certainly welcome to join in any conversation you see going on at
present,
or start one of your own. Ask questions, add your own thoughts. If you see an
interesting thread and discover that your language does something interesting
that is pertinent, feel free to tell us about it! So, that about covers the
non-technical
aspects. Get busy!
Padraic
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 7:41 AM, BPJ <b...@melroch.se> wrote:
>
>> Thanks guys! I'm subscribed thru gmail too so I got your replies on my
>> phone. I also saw an alert from gmail that they can't forward for the
> same
>> reason. Oddly there seems not to be any mail to fetch all the same.
> I've
>> texted the provider's support so hopefully they'll come up with
> something.
>> I guess that as a last resort I could try to delete and then recreate the
>> account. I'll see what's happening till I get home. Gah I hate
> cpanel!
>>
>> /bpj
>>
>> Den tisdagen den 23:e juli 2013 skrev H. S. Teoh:
>>
>> > On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 09:05:25PM +0200, BPJ wrote:
>> > > Is the list broken?
>> > >
>> > > If it isn't please tell me so offlist!
>> > [...]
>> >
>> > I tried emailing you off-list, but it bounced because your mailbox is
>> > full. So I'm posting here on the list with the hope that perhaps,
> you
>> > will see this message in the list archives. The bounce message was
> that
>> > your mailbox quota has been exceeded. That's probably why you
> aren't
>> > seeing list messages. :)
>> >
>> >
>> > T
>> >
>> > --
>> > It's bad luck to be superstitious. -- YHL
>> >
>>
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:50 am ((PDT))
> From: Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com>
>
> I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all
> voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember
> reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem
> 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and
> barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no
> singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that
> is always sung.
Right. Lack of vocal cords means no ability to, well, sing. But only in the
sense
that we usually think of as singing. Obviously, if such a people existed, and if
they even had an artistic aesthetic -- if they even understood the concept of
artful communication -- then they would without a doubt devise some other
means of accomplishing the task. Perhaps, if their language were signed, they
would simply sway and sign rhythmically as well as metrically -- a visual song.
If they are able to whisper, i.e., vocalise without using the cords to create
sound, then perhaps they'd still sing, but using a whispery voice. Perhaps they
would use some other modality, like whistling.
Or perhaps you might consider a people with ordinary vocal tracts, but whose
culture demands they use them differently. For example, the Hnuu people who
live up in the high vales of the southern reaches of the Spine of the World.
They
are ordinary Men, and thus technically able to talk, but their language is
composed
entirely of voiceless phonemes. In other words, they always whisper to one
another.
The occasional click or dental clack is about the only "sound" they make when
talking. Over long distances, they have a whistling language they use to
communicate
certain well defined utterances. Sort of like bugle calls, this is a very
limited mode
of communicating. What's weird though, is that only on certain nights and not
in every
year, the old people go away from the village and climbing up above the town,
will
start to sing. Their singing language is composed, obviously of voiced
phonemes. It's not
even until a Hnuu tribesman reaches about thirty years of age do the elders
deem one
ready to learn to sing. It is through this singing that central myths and
histories are
transmitted. The language itself is not different, but hearing it full throated
as it were,
is a bit of a shocker to a young person who's never heard anyone utter more
than a
mere whisper.
> Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished
> by voicing,
You mean like thorn v. edh or [b] vs. [p]?
> how do we recognize them in sung speech?
I'm no singer by any stretch, but I do believe singers simply pronounce those
sounds
as they would when talking. I.e., thorn and pee are voiceless; edh and bee are
voiced.
> Human singing necessarily involves voicing to create a tone.
Unless you're singing in whispervoice.
> Do we simply perceive the
> phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the
> last sound in "dogs" being /z/),
? The last sound in "dogs" ìs [z]! But yes, I think we simply fill in any gaps
with whatever
seems to make sense. Especially true in singing, where elongated tones or other
decorations can cause problems of understanding.
> or are degrees of volume or similar features permitted to vary by singers to
> distinguish between phonemes?
Why not? Singers already use degrees of volume for other reasons -- see sotto
voce.
Padraic
> Matt G.
Messages in this topic (10)
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4b. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:04 pm ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
Second attempt. First went to Padraic because he fiddled
with his Reply-To: header.
On Saturday 27 July 2013 19:50:14 Padraic Brown wrote:
> > From: Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com>
> [...]
> > Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished
> > by voicing,
>
> You mean like thorn v. edh or [b] vs. [p]?
>
> > how do we recognize them in sung speech?
>
> I'm no singer by any stretch, but I do believe singers simply pronounce
> those sounds as they would when talking. I.e., thorn and pee are
> voiceless; edh and bee are voiced.
I sing, and I can only confirm this. Voicing is treated the
same way in singing as in talking. Voiceless sibilants are
a problem of some sort because they are so salient in sound,
especially at the end of syllables. In a choir, this is
usually compensated by having most members leaving them out.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (10)
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4c. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Njenfalgar" njenfal...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:52 pm ((PDT))
2013/7/25 Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com>
> I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all
> voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember
> reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem
> 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and
> barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no
> singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that
> is always sung.
>
> Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished
> by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing
> necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the
> phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the
> last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar
> features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes?
>
> Matt G.
>
In Central Africa there is the tradition of whisper-singing, an example of
which can be heard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdqX-MM3ds4 Now and
then you can hear the vocal chords activating, but most of it is completely
voiceless.
I have been told this kind singing developed due to the accompanying
instrument lacking a sound-box, meaning that normal singing will completely
drown out the accompaniment. Many songs are epic tales of past history, and
in pre-literate times whisper-singing was one way history was recorded and
passed on to next generations.
Greets,
David
--
Yésináne gika asahukúka ha'u Kusikéla-Kísu yesahuwese witi nale lálu wíke
uhu tu tinitíhi lise tesahuwese. Lise yésináne, lina, ikéwiyéwa etinizáwa
búwubúwu niyi tutelíhi uhu yegeka.
http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (10)
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4d. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Matthew George" matt....@gmail.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:06 pm ((PDT))
Honestly, I'd call that chanting rather than singing. There doesn't seem
to be much tonality associated with it. I don't think it's possible for
human beings (or entities with humanlike vocal equipment) to 'sing' without
engaging the vocal chords.
Matt G.
Messages in this topic (10)
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4e. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" dan...@ryan-prohaska.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:40 pm ((PDT))
Or think of toothed whales who produce sound with phonic labia in the nasal
cavety. They completely lack vocal chords, yet they sing.
Dan
Sent from my iPhone
On 27.07.2013, at 21:51, Njenfalgar <njenfal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2013/7/25 Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com>
>
>> I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all
>> voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember
>> reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem
>> 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and
>> barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no
>> singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that
>> is always sung.
>>
>> Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished
>> by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing
>> necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the
>> phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the
>> last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar
>> features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes?
>>
>> Matt G.
>
> In Central Africa there is the tradition of whisper-singing, an example of
> which can be heard here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdqX-MM3ds4 Now and
> then you can hear the vocal chords activating, but most of it is completely
> voiceless.
>
> I have been told this kind singing developed due to the accompanying
> instrument lacking a sound-box, meaning that normal singing will completely
> drown out the accompaniment. Many songs are epic tales of past history, and
> in pre-literate times whisper-singing was one way history was recorded and
> passed on to next generations.
>
> Greets,
> David
>
> --
> Yésináne gika asahukúka ha'u Kusikéla-Kísu yesahuwese witi nale lálu wíke
> uhu tu tinitíhi lise tesahuwese. Lise yésináne, lina, ikéwiyéwa etinizáwa
> búwubúwu niyi tutelíhi uhu yegeka.
>
> http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (10)
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4f. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:36 pm ((PDT))
> From: Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhieme...@web.de>
>
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> Second attempt. First went to Padraic because he fiddled
> with his Reply-To: header.
Unfortunately, this seems to be an issue with Yahoo. There is no way for me
fiddle
with the headers!
>> I'm no singer by any stretch, but I do believe singers simply pronounce
>> those sounds as they would when talking. I.e., thorn and pee are
>> voiceless; edh and bee are voiced.
>
> I sing, and I can only confirm this. Voicing is treated the
> same way in singing as in talking. Voiceless sibilants are
> a problem of some sort because they are so salient in sound,
> especially at the end of syllables.
Yes indeed, although some composers have used this phenomenon to interesting
effect. PDQ Bach / Peter Schickele has quite humorously overdone both ess and
thorn. The former most notoriously in The Seasonings: "...and so the shepherd
chef
sought out a sooth sayer, saying, 'Sooth Sayer, say unto me the sooth.'" Of
course,
with special emphasis on all the sibilants!
> In a choir, this is usually compensated by having most members leaving them
> out.
That I didn't know! Makes sense, though. If a single soloist can overdo an ess,
I
can only imagine what a massed choir would do!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. searching for missing words
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:08 pm ((PDT))
I'm currently reading a novel with lots of typos in it. I didn't start
marking them until about the third one. I remember that a very early typo
was a missing "to".
Is there any way to search for missing words in an electronic manuscript?
stevo
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: searching for missing words
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:16 am ((PDT))
> From: MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com>
>
> I'm currently reading a novel with lots of typos in it. I didn't start
> marking them until about the third one. I remember that a very early typo
> was a missing "to".
>
> Is there any way to search for missing words in an electronic manuscript?
You could always try constructing a pair of Fawang Antun's Wondrous and
Polyfocal
Undinusquamical Spectacles of Curious Property. Antun was a 12th century
philosopher and artificer of old Hoopelle. When constructed properly, one can
adjust
the sliders along the rims to allow the wearer of the polyfocals to see all
sorts of
interesting things: pink olifants, three hundred pound gorillas, blue mice
dancing on
little orange cremepuffs, and the like. It is said that Antun was also rather a
dab hand
at finding things people had lost, finding people that had lost themselves and
finding
out things that certain people would rather remain lost.
Padraic
> stevo
Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Fwd: "Even if"
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:16 pm ((PDT))
> From: Lisa Weißbach <purereasonrevoluz...@web.de>
>
>> For example, my first impression, especially based on the curious wording
>> "she was always selling it", is one steeped in sarcasm. The verb itself has
>> nothing to do with actually selling a house as much to do with B's attitude
>> towards C. In other words, that phrase can, in addition to any "straight"
>> reading, also be read sarcastically to indicate that C liked to be "in the
>> game".
>
> Wow, and here I thought that my seminar had already opened my eyes... This
> is yet a new and interesting reading of B's sentence - consider my eyes
> wide open now! Irony or sarcasm is something I never would have considered
> in my interpretation until now, but thinking about it, it does make a
> surprising amount of sense, especially when keeping the context and the
> plot of the episode in mind.
I suppose èvery language must be capable of expressing things like irony and
sarcasm
in some fashion or other. In English, it's certainly very important, and
perhaps because
we have no explicit, and often very paltry implicit marking of such, clues
other than
simple linguistic ones need to be examined carefully. Very often they're
delivered
straight, and someone not prepared or not expecting anything other than a
straight
answer can be left quite flummoxed.
> Hm, in order to keep this from turning into a usage thread and to steer
> back in the conlang direction: have any of you developed ways to express
> irony through morphology in your conlangs, such as these verb forms?
The World itself is full of such ironies, but I haven't done any actual work
on how its works in those languages spoken there. Leastways as far as
human languages are concerned, I just assume that every language community
has its weisenheimers, smartarses and outright Liars, and thus must in some
way be able to handle these things.
Non-human peoples --- I don't know if they even do irony or sarcasm. Daine,
for example, can learn to do these ( or at least imitate them after long
practice ),
but natively don't really get the concept. They're kind of natural straight men,
especially those out in the Farther West, beyond the lands of Men. Those that
live in the Eastlands have more contact with Men and thus a greater
understanding
of their oddness.
The Avantimen are fond of twisting well known aphorisms and giving them a bit
of ironic twist. For example: Tha qanet thon herse te watnam lîthen, beouten tha
ne qanet him beude te utpumpe thon water. (You can lead a horse to water, but
you can't make him pump it out.)
Or this twisted tale:
On fornez this man yoet yahend on thon watersithon with his beuhen ande his
arhweuô,
ande he was yeconuersend under himself ande this annet in thenwise: âHis alle
es
senslesse tha wâtet, that te scêten es crudele disportez; for that em ei ne
crudeltet en
man. Sôthelih ei petô min yncgenôn ongeynes thin weyngcraftinesse. Tes fayr
gammelez.â
âLa, sôth! Vrouw, hit es sôthelih fayr gammelez; beouten ih nellem ne
gambollen.â
âHuw nuw!â he scrâye. âHwer for naht?â frôhe se man with his beuhen
ande his arhweuô.
âYaan gammelez es fayr, swo tha sayes ande swo ih haldô. They ceavant erend
swo sam;
beouten vrouw, doe tha te thenken on thon stakon. Em ihh on thon gammele for
thih;
beouten hwat mih sêtat under this gambolle?â
Se man underhimthanke, beouten he ne havete andswere te thon frahhe; ande with
wiscraftinesse, he thon frahund scôte.
One time this man went hunting at the waters edge with his bow and his arrows,
and he was
talking between himself and this duck in thuswise: âAll this is senseless,
you know, that
shooting is a cruel sport. For I am not a cruel man. Truly I put my natural
ability against thy
wingcraftiness. Tis a fair game.â
âOh, truly! Sir, it is truly a fair game; but I am not willing to wager!â
âHow now!â he cried. âWhy not?â asked the man with his bow and his
arrows.
âThis game is fair, as you say and so too I hold. The odds are even; but sir,
do you think of the
stakes. I am in the game for you; but what is in this wager for me?â
The man considered within himself, but he had no answer to that question. And
so with great craft
and skill, he shot the questioner.
>> I suppose one could say that the indicative/imperative construction
>> encompasses both aspects of the inconsequential, and perhaps a little
>> more (as in the first example)?
>>
>
> Yes, definitely, if you choose to use this construction in your conlang in
> all these cases in the end. What about lose-lose situations, then? Say, the
> king is losing the war against the Ahripf and at the same time, the
> monarchy as an institution is about to collapse because its opponents are
> legion and quite powerful. The king knows that the envoy will either be
> defeated by his enemies, which will symbolically seal his dethronement by
> showing that he's no longer capable of taking meaningful action, or that
> the envoy, even if he arrives, will probably double-cross his king, taking
> this opportunity to gain supporters for a new democracy. (I'm not a
> historian, so no guarantees that this is a plausible scenario; but you get
> where I'm going with this.) Here, the situation is quite similar to the old
> king scenario: the king knows that - no matter which of the two situations
> takes place - the consequence will be of the same valence to him (old
> scenario: both positive; new scenario: both negative), so he can just go
> ahead with his action. However, I suppose that more natlangs have a
> distinct "resignative" construction for this kind of scenario (lumping
"Resignative" is exactly what I was thinking of!
Padraic
> Lisa
>
Messages in this topic (21)
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