There are 11 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: A question about relative clause placement From: David McCann 1b. Re: A question about relative clause placement From: selpa'i 1c. Re: A question about relative clause placement From: Roger Mills 2a. Naming Things From: Patrick VanDusen 2b. Re: Naming Things From: Matthew Boutilier 2c. Re: Naming Things From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews 2d. Re: Naming Things From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews 2e. Re: Naming Things From: Elena ``of Valhalla'' 2f. Re: Naming Things From: Adam Walker 2g. Re: Naming Things From: Daniel Bowman 3. This topic made me think of a topic I'd pondered about on another li From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1a. Re: A question about relative clause placement Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 8:25 am ((PDT)) On Wed, 7 Aug 2013 23:23:56 +0200 M Forster <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote: > Hello conlangers, > > I'm currently working on relative clauses and considering different > placements. My language is mostly VSO and head-first and my current > model for relative clauses works like this (simplified): > > head-noun verb subject object REL > "the man go he the bar who" > "The man who went to the bar" > > Now my question is: Do you know of any natlang that does this? I'd be > very interested to know. It's not really likely. A relative pronoun (uncommon anyway) is a combination pronoun and conjunction, and a conjunction must start the clause; how else would we know that it was a new clause? In English we have to stick with that even when the result is ambiguous: That is the model whom the artist helped to paint. A more common pattern is to have a conjunction and pronoun: *That is the model that the artist helped to paint her *That is the model that the artist helped her to paint So man who go bar man that go [he] bar The shared subject is generally dropped in the subordinate clause Messages in this topic (6) ________________________________________________________________________ 1b. Re: A question about relative clause placement Posted by: "selpa'i" m...@plasmatix.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 11:01 am ((PDT)) On 08.08.2013 17:25, David McCann wrote: > On Wed, 7 Aug 2013 23:23:56 +0200 > M Forster <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote: > >> Hello conlangers, >> >> I'm currently working on relative clauses and considering different >> placements. My language is mostly VSO and head-first and my current >> model for relative clauses works like this (simplified): >> >> head-noun verb subject object REL >> "the man go he the bar who" >> "The man who went to the bar" >> >> Now my question is: Do you know of any natlang that does this? I'd >> be >> very interested to know. > > It's not really likely. A relative pronoun (uncommon anyway) is a > combination pronoun and conjunction, and a conjunction must start the > clause; how else would we know that it was a new clause? In this language it's clear that a new clause starts because a verb always starts a new clause, and the arguments follow the verb. The relative "pronoun" here would *end* the clause, and be a way to specify the type of relative clause at hand; e.g. there could be different ones for incidental and restrictive clauses. Of course it's very possible that this kind of construction isn't found in any natural language. > In English we > have to stick with that even when the result is ambiguous: > That is the model whom the artist helped to paint. > > A more common pattern is to have a conjunction and pronoun: > *That is the model that the artist helped to paint her > *That is the model that the artist helped her to paint > > So > man who go bar > man that go [he] bar > The shared subject is generally dropped in the subordinate clause Yes, but some languages don't drop it. In any case, this point is not so important to the question at hand. --M Messages in this topic (6) ________________________________________________________________________ 1c. Re: A question about relative clause placement Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 7:17 pm ((PDT)) From: selpa'i <m...@plasmatix.com> > M Forster <m...@plasmatix.com> wrote: > >> Hello conlangers, >> >> I'm currently working on relative clauses and considering different >> placements. My language is mostly VSO and head-first and my current >> model for relative clauses works like this (simplified): >> >> head-noun verb subject object REL >> "the man go he the bar who" >> "The man who went to the bar" >> >> Now my question is: Do you know of any natlang that does this? I'd be >> very interested to know. > > It's not really likely. A relative pronoun (uncommon anyway) is a > combination pronoun and conjunction, and a conjunction must start the > clause; how else would we know that it was a new clause? RM I agree with this, but your justification makes some sense.... In this language it's clear that a new clause starts because a verb always starts a new clause, and the arguments follow the verb. The relative "pronoun" here would *end* the clause, and be a way to specify the type of relative clause at hand; e.g. there could be different ones for incidental and restrictive clauses. RM: Unless your language has obligatitory subject marking on the verb, do you really need the extra "he" in there-- and in that case, actually, since it's VSO couldn't it be "the man go who the bar" ??? Of course it's very possible that this kind of construction isn't found in any natural language. RM I suspect not..... :-) Messages in this topic (6) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2a. Naming Things Posted by: "Patrick VanDusen" pdu...@gmail.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 9:12 pm ((PDT)) How do you name things in your languages? Are all of your languages called "The speech"? Are all of your concultures who speak the language called "The people"? Do all of your towns have names like "Red Hill" or "Green Groves"? I ask because this is a weird mental sticking point for me--I never go much beyond naming languages, but the act of naming things always seems so *forced* to me. I end up gravitating toward names like the examples I gave above, but I can never get over the feeling that this is NOT how things are named. Patrick Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2b. Re: Naming Things Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" bvticvlar...@gmail.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 9:29 pm ((PDT)) that's a perfectly good way of doing it. my conlangs have a pretty strong historical dimension, so even though something was transparently named e.g. "Red Hill" somewhere back in history it might've gotten fossilized as "Reddul" or "Ro-dille" or something (you know, but a conlang equivalent). i also take many placenames and personal names from *other* of my concultures (some of which i haven't even fleshed out beyond such words). geographical names - of mountains, rivers, forests, etc. - are especially apt to be retained when a people speaking one language overtakes another. but i've extended this even personal names. i always think of the situation i encountered in Egypt, where probably the majority of people have muslim names in Arabic that mean things like "most praiseworthy" or "happy" or whatever with perfect transparency; but then you've got people with these ancient Coptic names - *Shenouda* comes to mind - that don't mean a damn thing anymore, they're just nice names. which amounts to, often, i'll just make up a cool-sounding word and pretend that at some point in history it meant something significant in some other neighboring conculture. i make verisimilitude a top priority in my conlanging, and even i have zero problem with just pulling a name out of nowhere, assuming it fits into the appropriate contemporary phonology and phonotactics and whatever. for what it's worth, the name of my principal conlang *does* mean "people-ish" basically. actually, "of the tribe" (but there are a bunch of tribes, so it's sort of ambiguous; sort of like Deutsch vs Dutch vs *duits*i suppose). but i have a lot of concultures (all kind of existing in the same con-world) that just have random meaningless words as their names. matt On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Patrick VanDusen <pdu...@gmail.com> wrote: > How do you name things in your languages? Are all of your languages called > "The speech"? Are all of your concultures who speak the language called > "The people"? Do all of your towns have names like "Red Hill" or "Green > Groves"? > > I ask because this is a weird mental sticking point for me--I never go much > beyond naming languages, but the act of naming things always seems so > *forced* to me. I end up gravitating toward names like the examples I gave > above, but I can never get over the feeling that this is NOT how things are > named. > > Patrick > Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2c. Re: Naming Things Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com Date: Thu Aug 8, 2013 9:42 pm ((PDT)) I admit I used a generator for naming the cities and villages. That sparked some ideas, and I came up with a few like the ones you've listed. I don't have a Red Hill, but I do have the following: Red Falls Red Springs Red Summer Red Winters Steamy Falls Steamy Springs Steamy Summer Steamy Winters I have others, one is actually a character in a book, I have more I can mention in the serial, but not publish, due to the fact it's a list of character names I bought. The terms for things I just come up with them. I also have a Blue Park Lane. A member on another list came up with the name Yardish for the language. Mellissa Green @GreenNovelist -----Original Message----- From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Boutilier Sent: Friday, August 9, 2013 12:30 AM To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu Subject: Re: Naming Things that's a perfectly good way of doing it. my conlangs have a pretty strong historical dimension, so even though something was transparently named e.g. "Red Hill" somewhere back in history it might've gotten fossilized as "Reddul" or "Ro-dille" or something (you know, but a conlang equivalent). i also take many placenames and personal names from *other* of my concultures (some of which i haven't even fleshed out beyond such words). geographical names - of mountains, rivers, forests, etc. - are especially apt to be retained when a people speaking one language overtakes another. but i've extended this even personal names. i always think of the situation i encountered in Egypt, where probably the majority of people have muslim names in Arabic that mean things like "most praiseworthy" or "happy" or whatever with perfect transparency; but then you've got people with these ancient Coptic names - *Shenouda* comes to mind - that don't mean a damn thing anymore, they're just nice names. which amounts to, often, i'll just make up a cool-sounding word and pretend that at some point in history it meant something significant in some other neighboring conculture. i make verisimilitude a top priority in my conlanging, and even i have zero problem with just pulling a name out of nowhere, assuming it fits into the appropriate contemporary phonology and phonotactics and whatever. for what it's worth, the name of my principal conlang *does* mean "people-ish" basically. actually, "of the tribe" (but there are a bunch of tribes, so it's sort of ambiguous; sort of like Deutsch vs Dutch vs *duits*i suppose). but i have a lot of concultures (all kind of existing in the same con-world) that just have random meaningless words as their names. matt On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 11:11 PM, Patrick VanDusen <pdu...@gmail.com> wrote: > How do you name things in your languages? Are all of your languages called > "The speech"? Are all of your concultures who speak the language called > "The people"? Do all of your towns have names like "Red Hill" or "Green > Groves"? > > I ask because this is a weird mental sticking point for me--I never go much > beyond naming languages, but the act of naming things always seems so > *forced* to me. I end up gravitating toward names like the examples I gave > above, but I can never get over the feeling that this is NOT how things are > named. > > Patrick > Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2d. Re: Naming Things Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 12:00 am ((PDT)) Some of the names I used for cities came from a Biblical names list. I have a fantasy name generator on my computer that came with a course I bought, and I'd mix and match first and last names. Mellissa Green @GreenNovelist Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2e. Re: Naming Things Posted by: "Elena ``of Valhalla''" elena.valha...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 1:02 am ((PDT)) On 2013-08-09 at 00:11:58 -0400, Patrick VanDusen wrote: > How do you name things in your languages? Are all of your languages called > "The speech"? Are all of your concultures who speak the language called > "The people"? Do all of your towns have names like "Red Hill" or "Green > Groves"? Basically yes, I am using transparent names, even if some may become frozen in time and lose meaning as the history of my conworld advances. I try to be slightly more inventive with the meanings: in one area/time all villages are named after a flower because people record their lives on embroidered clothing where stilized flowers stand for villages. Another placename, Kabarjoth, means escape and it is a city founded by a man who believed he was fleeing from an oppressive way of life. (he was wrong, and under the influence of a demon, and I suspect that later oppressed inhabitants would have liked escaping from it). This was actually born in a reverse way, by selecting an appropriate sounding name and giving it a meaning. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2f. Re: Naming Things Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 5:29 am ((PDT)) Well, for Carraxa/Carrajina, my only human culture/language, I inherited a fully named geography with historical layers. Carraxa was first named New City by the Phoenician and then the name was Latinized by the Romans. There are several place names like that. There are many more that are transparent in Latin. The Arabs changed a fair number of names and established many more, like Mahdia, that are transparent in Arabic. There are Greek place names in the east and Berber ones in the west and Touareg in the south. But everywhere you also find places like Sampu Dunadu which is clearly Saint Donatus. My alien cultures tend not to have a lot of place names. Adam On 8/8/13, Patrick VanDusen <pdu...@gmail.com> wrote: > How do you name things in your languages? Are all of your languages called > "The speech"? Are all of your concultures who speak the language called > "The people"? Do all of your towns have names like "Red Hill" or "Green > Groves"? > > I ask because this is a weird mental sticking point for me--I never go much > beyond naming languages, but the act of naming things always seems so > *forced* to me. I end up gravitating toward names like the examples I gave > above, but I can never get over the feeling that this is NOT how things are > named. > > Patrick > Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 2g. Re: Naming Things Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 5:29 am ((PDT)) I come up with the language first, and then reverse engineer it to get a meaning. For example, I call my primary conlang "Angosey" - I determined this was originally "Tha angos seyeo" (the language of all) or maybe even "tha angos seyeo ngayn" (the language for the benefit of all people). Place names tend to be less descriptive of physical appearance and more related to their effect on the speaker: In klaya kahley "The mountain range that impedes travel" In sereo kayrye "The island of refuge" 2013/8/9 Patrick VanDusen <pdu...@gmail.com> > How do you name things in your languages? Are all of your languages called > "The speech"? Are all of your concultures who speak the language called > "The people"? Do all of your towns have names like "Red Hill" or "Green > Groves"? > > I ask because this is a weird mental sticking point for me--I never go much > beyond naming languages, but the act of naming things always seems so > *forced* to me. I end up gravitating toward names like the examples I gave > above, but I can never get over the feeling that this is NOT how things are > named. > > Patrick > Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 3. This topic made me think of a topic I'd pondered about on another li Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com Date: Fri Aug 9, 2013 12:04 am ((PDT)) Ho do your conlangs and concultures address homes? I'm thinking tactile symbols, like a wooden dragon on the door. At first I thought scent-marking would work, but scents mix in the nose. Mellissa Green @GreenNovelist Messages in this topic (1) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/ <*> Your email settings: Digest Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: conlang-nor...@yahoogroups.com conlang-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: conlang-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------