There are 7 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Most phonetically beautiful sentence in a natlang
From: R A Brown
1b. Re: Most phonetically beautiful sentence in a natlang
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1c. Re: Most phonetically beautiful sentence in a natlang
From: Padraic Brown
2a. Re: Voice Mail
From: Ben Felix
2b. Re: Voice Mail
From: Ben Felix
2c. Re: Voice Mail
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2d. Re: Voice Mail
From: James Kane
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Most phonetically beautiful sentence in a natlang
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:38 am ((PDT))
On 24/08/2013 22:51, Padraic Brown wrote:
>> --Vòglio lavoràre a oràrio ridòtto coll’ànatra che
>> nuòta nell’acquàio
>
>> otturàto.--
>>
>> Translation: “I want to word part-time with the duck
>> swimming in the stopped-up washbasin.”
>
> Me, I don't find Italian particularly mellifluous (nor
> Quenya really).
Standard Italian is IMO one of the most mellifluous
languages of the western world. When I first came upon
Galadriel's song (Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen...) more
than 50 years ago the very hairs on my neck stood on end -
that is SO beautiful, I thought.
> Maybe too many vowels.
For me it is vowels and unblocked syllables that add to the
mellifluousness of a language.
> Hawai'ian, I can't imagine a LESS mellifluous tongue! Too
> many glottal stops! And too many vowels to boot!
I don't find anything either mellifluous or unmellifluous
about the glottal plosive per_se (maybe I'm to used to
hearing it on the lips of my fellow countrymen) - but all
those vowels and open syllables - lovely. I've always liked
the Polynesian languages for that reason.
> French is too short and choppy,
I don't understand this. Sure, the written words themselves
are short (especially compared to other Romancelangs). But
French isn't spoken in single lexical words; whole clauses
form _single phonological words_ which are not particularly
short IMO. I don't understand what "choppy" means in this
context.
[snip]
I think this all goes to show that just as visual beauty is
in the eye of the beholder, so mellifluousness is in the ear
of the ear of the listener.
Tolkien thought Welsh a beautiful language; some people find
it ugly, guttural and harsh. On the other hand Tolkien
considered Gaelic to be ugly and harsh; I find Gaelic with
its fondness for palatalization and for lenition makes it
far from harsh!
As I say, mellifluousness is in the ear of the ear of the
listener. So IMO looking for the most phonetically
beautiful sentence in a natlang is such a subjective thing
that we're never going to agree it's been found :)
>
> So, I guess I'll go with Middle English: a nice lilt and
> rhythm, just enough vowels but not too harsh:
>
> And whan that ducke doth his shoure sote, the moke of
> Marche he kiked with his bote.
The main problem, of course, is that we do not know how
Middle English was actually pronounced; we can get only an
approximation. This applies to all languages that ceased to
be spoken before the advent of any means of recording
speech. I _think_ I would have found ancient (*not*
Byzantine or modern) Greek more mellifluous than Classical
Latin. But if time-travel enabled me to go back and
actually listen I might well be surprised.
[snip]
> Anyway, you didn't specify 21st century natlangs!
No, but unless we actually know what the language really
sounded like, we can't tell how it sounded _phonetically_.
Even if we are able to reconstruct its phonology (i.e. its
phonemes) with some certainty, how the phonemes were
realized phonetically is more problematic.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Most phonetically beautiful sentence in a natlang
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" joerg_rhieme...@web.de
Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:06 am ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Sunday 25 August 2013 09:38:33 R A Brown wrote:
> On 24/08/2013 22:51, Padraic Brown wrote:
> >> --Vòglio lavoràre a oràrio ridòtto coll’ànatra che
> >> nuòta nell’acquàio
> >>
> >> otturàto.--
> >>
> >> Translation: “I want to word part-time with the duck
> >> swimming in the stopped-up washbasin.”
> >
> > Me, I don't find Italian particularly mellifluous (nor
> > Quenya really).
>
> Standard Italian is IMO one of the most mellifluous
> languages of the western world. When I first came upon
> Galadriel's song (Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen...) more
> than 50 years ago the very hairs on my neck stood on end -
> that is SO beautiful, I thought.
Yes. Quenya and Sindarin are among the most beautiful languages
I know. Italian is also very nice, but I find Spanish a bit
nicer because it has more "spice" - more words ending in
consonants, but not too many.
> > Maybe too many vowels.
>
> For me it is vowels and unblocked syllables that add to the
> mellifluousness of a language.
>
> > Hawai'ian, I can't imagine a LESS mellifluous tongue! Too
> > many glottal stops! And too many vowels to boot!
>
> I don't find anything either mellifluous or unmellifluous
> about the glottal plosive per_se (maybe I'm to used to
> hearing it on the lips of my fellow countrymen) - but all
> those vowels and open syllables - lovely. I've always liked
> the Polynesian languages for that reason.
I like them, too.
> > French is too short and choppy,
>
> I don't understand this. Sure, the written words themselves
> are short (especially compared to other Romancelangs). But
> French isn't spoken in single lexical words; whole clauses
> form _single phonological words_ which are not particularly
> short IMO. I don't understand what "choppy" means in this
> context.
French is quite lilting, and not at all "short and choppy".
> [snip]
>
> I think this all goes to show that just as visual beauty is
> in the eye of the beholder, so mellifluousness is in the ear
> of the ear of the listener.
Very much so!
> Tolkien thought Welsh a beautiful language; some people find
> it ugly, guttural and harsh. On the other hand Tolkien
> considered Gaelic to be ugly and harsh; I find Gaelic with
> its fondness for palatalization and for lenition makes it
> far from harsh!
I like both Welsh and Gaelic, and do not understand Tolkien
in this point.
> As I say, mellifluousness is in the ear of the ear of the
> listener. So IMO looking for the most phonetically
> beautiful sentence in a natlang is such a subjective thing
> that we're never going to agree it's been found :)
AMEN!
> > So, I guess I'll go with Middle English: a nice lilt and
> > rhythm, just enough vowels but not too harsh:
> >
> > And whan that ducke doth his shoure sote, the moke of
> > Marche he kiked with his bote.
>
> The main problem, of course, is that we do not know how
> Middle English was actually pronounced; we can get only an
> approximation. This applies to all languages that ceased to
> be spoken before the advent of any means of recording
> speech.
Indeed! We have good guesses for many of them, but still just
*guesses*.
> I _think_ I would have found ancient (*not*
> Byzantine or modern) Greek more mellifluous than Classical
> Latin. But if time-travel enabled me to go back and
> actually listen I might well be surprised.
Perhaps.
> [snip]
>
> > Anyway, you didn't specify 21st century natlangs!
>
> No, but unless we actually know what the language really
> sounded like, we can't tell how it sounded _phonetically_.
> Even if we are able to reconstruct its phonology (i.e. its
> phonemes) with some certainty, how the phonemes were
> realized phonetically is more problematic.
This is very true. With languages such as Latin and Ancient
Greek, we know quite a bit about their phonology but still
only little about the phonetic details, but there are others
such as Hittite or PIE where even the phonology is poorly
known.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Most phonetically beautiful sentence in a natlang
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:13 am ((PDT))
First, welcome back!
> I think this all goes to show that just as visual beauty is
> in the eye of the beholder, so mellifluousness is in the ear
> of the ear of the listener.
> So IMO looking for the most phonetically
> beautiful sentence in a natlang is such a subjective thing
> that we're never going to agree it's been found :)
Yes. I rather think this was the point! ;) Denying the obvious
choices (Italian, French, etc) and picking one that no one
(living at the present time) has ever heard pronounced is a
pretty good, if indirect, way of say "de gustibus".
>> So, I guess I'll go with Middle English: a nice lilt and
>> rhythm, just enough vowels but not too harsh:
>>
>> And whan that ducke doth his shoure sote, the moke of
>> Marche he kiked with his bote.
>
> The main problem, of course, is that we do not know how
> Middle English was actually pronounced; we can get only an
> approximation.
Of course. But when we get down to it, *all* pronunciations are
"approximations" of toward or away from some standard. But I
certainly understand your point. I do think the approximation is
probably close enough to an educated reality on sufficiently
many sounds that anyone who does read ME using that
approximation will probably be getting it close to right. And I dó
happen to like the sound of it. Vowel shifts hadn't yet happened,
all the consonants are still in place, final -e are still (more or less)
present and accounted for.
> Ray
Padraic
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Voice Mail
Posted by: "Ben Felix" buddy...@googlemail.com
Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:39 am ((PDT))
I am slightly too. Are you meaning that I could communicate by sending
voice messages to other people? If so, then if I wanted to keep it a secret
from the rest of the world (as no-one else knows it) then it would be more
effective than a code. I am currently the only one who knows my languages,
apart from a few who know how to say "Hello", so the only one I would give
voice messages to would be myself. Therefore, excellent secret code
material.
If you aren't talking about this, then I am sorry, but could you explain
what you mean?
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Secret? I'm confused.
>
> If you sent an audio letter, it wouldn't be secret unless it was in code.
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Ben Felix
> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 3:30 AM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Voice Mail
>
> Well, considering I am the only one who can speak the languages in any
> capacity, and it is verbal, I suppose yes, if I really wanted to keep
> something a secret, then I could.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, and can yur peoples' send verbal mail?
> >
> > Mellissa Green
> >
> >
> > @GreenNovelist
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Ben Felix
> > Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 2:53 AM
> > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> > Subject: Re: Voice Mail
> >
> > So, basically you are asking whether our languages are written, verbal,
> > both or otherwise. For all of my conlangs, they are both, although some
> > have been harder to pronounce than others.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> > goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The recent post we had on voicing program creation made me wonder if
> your
> > > peoples' have voice mail?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Can they speak their letters, or do they need to write letters.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yemorans have that option. Useful for those who can't type, and useful
> > for
> > > the blind who don't want to learn Prailea, the writing system Yemorans
> > use.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If this is possible in your world, do the evelopes or transportation
> > tubes
> > > have a color-specific tone to the letter?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For example, what color would a red tube mean?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mellissa Green
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > @GreenNovelist
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Voice Mail
Posted by: "Ben Felix" buddy...@googlemail.com
Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:40 am ((PDT))
I can speak my letters, therefore it can be used in a verbal way, but
again, only I know it.
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Ben Felix <buddy...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I am slightly too. Are you meaning that I could communicate by sending
> voice messages to other people? If so, then if I wanted to keep it a secret
> from the rest of the world (as no-one else knows it) then it would be more
> effective than a code. I am currently the only one who knows my languages,
> apart from a few who know how to say "Hello", so the only one I would give
> voice messages to would be myself. Therefore, excellent secret code
> material.
> If you aren't talking about this, then I am sorry, but could you explain
> what you mean?
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Secret? I'm confused.
>>
>> If you sent an audio letter, it wouldn't be secret unless it was in code.
>>
>> Mellissa Green
>>
>>
>> @GreenNovelist
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Ben Felix
>> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 3:30 AM
>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>> Subject: Re: Voice Mail
>>
>> Well, considering I am the only one who can speak the languages in any
>> capacity, and it is verbal, I suppose yes, if I really wanted to keep
>> something a secret, then I could.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
>> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Yes, and can yur peoples' send verbal mail?
>> >
>> > Mellissa Green
>> >
>> >
>> > @GreenNovelist
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
>> > Behalf Of Ben Felix
>> > Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 2:53 AM
>> > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>> > Subject: Re: Voice Mail
>> >
>> > So, basically you are asking whether our languages are written, verbal,
>> > both or otherwise. For all of my conlangs, they are both, although some
>> > have been harder to pronounce than others.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
>> > goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > The recent post we had on voicing program creation made me wonder if
>> your
>> > > peoples' have voice mail?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Can they speak their letters, or do they need to write letters.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Yemorans have that option. Useful for those who can't type, and useful
>> > for
>> > > the blind who don't want to learn Prailea, the writing system Yemorans
>> > use.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > If this is possible in your world, do the evelopes or transportation
>> > tubes
>> > > have a color-specific tone to the letter?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > For example, what color would a red tube mean?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Mellissa Green
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > @GreenNovelist
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Voice Mail
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:50 am ((PDT))
Yes, that's what I meant.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Ben Felix
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 3:40 AM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Voice Mail
I am slightly too. Are you meaning that I could communicate by sending
voice messages to other people? If so, then if I wanted to keep it a secret
from the rest of the world (as no-one else knows it) then it would be more
effective than a code. I am currently the only one who knows my languages,
apart from a few who know how to say "Hello", so the only one I would give
voice messages to would be myself. Therefore, excellent secret code
material.
If you aren't talking about this, then I am sorry, but could you explain
what you mean?
On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Secret? I'm confused.
>
> If you sent an audio letter, it wouldn't be secret unless it was in code.
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Ben Felix
> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 3:30 AM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Voice Mail
>
> Well, considering I am the only one who can speak the languages in any
> capacity, and it is verbal, I suppose yes, if I really wanted to keep
> something a secret, then I could.
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, and can yur peoples' send verbal mail?
> >
> > Mellissa Green
> >
> >
> > @GreenNovelist
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Ben Felix
> > Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 2:53 AM
> > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> > Subject: Re: Voice Mail
> >
> > So, basically you are asking whether our languages are written, verbal,
> > both or otherwise. For all of my conlangs, they are both, although some
> > have been harder to pronounce than others.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> > goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The recent post we had on voicing program creation made me wonder if
> your
> > > peoples' have voice mail?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Can they speak their letters, or do they need to write letters.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yemorans have that option. Useful for those who can't type, and useful
> > for
> > > the blind who don't want to learn Prailea, the writing system Yemorans
> > use.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If this is possible in your world, do the evelopes or transportation
> > tubes
> > > have a color-specific tone to the letter?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > For example, what color would a red tube mean?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mellissa Green
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > @GreenNovelist
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: Voice Mail
Posted by: "James Kane" kane...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:52 am ((PDT))
I think what Nicole means to ask is whether the conspeakers of your conlang in
your conworld use verbal mail.
I don't really have any properly formed concultures, but if I get round to it
they will all be pre-modern and so not have access to things such as voice-mail
and audio-recording.
James
On 25/08/2013, at 7:39 PM, Ben Felix <buddy...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I am slightly too. Are you meaning that I could communicate by sending
> voice messages to other people? If so, then if I wanted to keep it a secret
> from the rest of the world (as no-one else knows it) then it would be more
> effective than a code. I am currently the only one who knows my languages,
> apart from a few who know how to say "Hello", so the only one I would give
> voice messages to would be myself. Therefore, excellent secret code
> material.
> If you aren't talking about this, then I am sorry, but could you explain
> what you mean?
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Secret? I'm confused.
>>
>> If you sent an audio letter, it wouldn't be secret unless it was in code.
>>
>> Mellissa Green
>>
>>
>> @GreenNovelist
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Ben Felix
>> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 3:30 AM
>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>> Subject: Re: Voice Mail
>>
>> Well, considering I am the only one who can speak the languages in any
>> capacity, and it is verbal, I suppose yes, if I really wanted to keep
>> something a secret, then I could.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 5:13 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
>> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, and can yur peoples' send verbal mail?
>>>
>>> Mellissa Green
>>>
>>>
>>> @GreenNovelist
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
>>> Behalf Of Ben Felix
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2013 2:53 AM
>>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>>> Subject: Re: Voice Mail
>>>
>>> So, basically you are asking whether our languages are written, verbal,
>>> both or otherwise. For all of my conlangs, they are both, although some
>>> have been harder to pronounce than others.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
>>> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The recent post we had on voicing program creation made me wonder if
>> your
>>>> peoples' have voice mail?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can they speak their letters, or do they need to write letters.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yemorans have that option. Useful for those who can't type, and useful
>>> for
>>>> the blind who don't want to learn Prailea, the writing system Yemorans
>>> use.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If this is possible in your world, do the evelopes or transportation
>>> tubes
>>>> have a color-specific tone to the letter?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For example, what color would a red tube mean?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mellissa Green
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> @GreenNovelist
>>
Messages in this topic (9)
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