There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Jonathan Beagley
1b. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Mustafa Umut Sarac
1c. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Rodrigo Aleixo
1d. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: R A Brown
1e. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1f. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Jonathan Beagley
1g. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1h. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: And Rosta
1i. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1j. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: H. S. Teoh
1k. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: C. Brickner
2a. I am sure
From: C. Brickner
2b. Re: I am sure
From: Matthew Boutilier
2c. Re: I am sure
From: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
2d. Re: I am sure
From: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Jonathan Beagley" jonathan.beag...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:13 am ((PDT))
I'll third that.
Also, I may not be a native speaker of French, but I've lived in France for
the past two years and have a fairly advanced knowledge of Spoken French,
having also studied it at university.
There are some interesting academic articles about Spoken French (at least
as far as dislocations and future tense variation go), but personally I've
never heard of this "polypersonal" thing. Care to explain, Christophe?
Jonathan
2013/8/30 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
> 2013/8/30 Eugene Oh <un.do...@gmail.com>:
> > Please ask on-list, Aiden, if you don't mind!
>
> I agree! I think that this subject is interesting for many people here.
>
> > I always like to read Christophe's views on Spoken French. Of course,
> please don't feel obliged to just because I asked, it is just a selfish
> request (:
> >
> > Eugene
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On 30 Aug 2013, at 08:10, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
> tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 30 August 2013 06:03, Aidan Grey <taalenma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Rather than just another Future English, I'm working on a future
> French.
> >>> Wassa is a polysynthetic French that's lost its nasals and its
> >>> uvular/guttural R, and I'm still playing with the idea of tones, but
> not
> >>> sure it's going to happen just yet.
> >>>
> >>> To that end - are there any good resources out there on colloquial /
> slang
> >>> French? The French I know / read is very academic and literary, and I
> need
> >>> to learn more about the ways that it's already changing.
> >>>
> >>> I've done some looking, but haven't had very good luck so far.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Aidan
> >>
> >> Well, one could call *me* a good resource on colloquial French (I
> prefer to
> >> call it "Spoken French", as there is nothing colloquial about it: even
> the
> >> formal registers of Spoken French are quite different from literary
> >> French), but I guess you'd rather have something you can read at your
> >> leisure, rather than someone who may not always be available to answer
> your
> >> questions :) .
> >>
> >> Unfortunately resources on Spoken French are indeed very scarce.
> Resources
> >> on vocabulary, and especially argot, are relatively easy to find, but
> >> grammatical info is just missing.
> >>
> >> You can find bits and pieces here:
> >> http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/negation_inf.htm (this page deals
> with
> >> negation, but also has links to other pages about Spoken French). In
> terms
> >> of books, _Colloquial French Grammar, a practical guide_ by Rodney Ball
> is
> >> not bad, but has a big hole in lacking a description of Spoken French's
> >> polypersonal verbs. Could be because it's from 2000. The polypersonal
> >> nature of Spoken French's verbs has been unrecognised for a long time,
> >> maybe because there's still a strong impression among people that Spoken
> >> French is a "debased" form of the language that is not worthy of study,
> and
> >> thus they will automatically code-switch to something somewhat closer to
> >> Written French when asked questions about their own language.It's
> difficult
> >> to study a grammatical feature when the natives refuse to use it in
> front
> >> of the linguist :P.
> >>
> >> And of course you can always ask me questions, on- and off-list. I may
> not
> >> always reply immediately, but I *always* reply eventually :).
> >> --
> >> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
> >>
> >> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> >> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Mustafa Umut Sarac" mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:39 am ((PDT))
I searched the google for polypersonal verbs and found nothing. Please link
a free paper.
Umut
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Jonathan Beagley <
jonathan.beag...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll third that.
>
> Also, I may not be a native speaker of French, but I've lived in France for
> the past two years and have a fairly advanced knowledge of Spoken French,
> having also studied it at university.
>
> There are some interesting academic articles about Spoken French (at least
> as far as dislocations and future tense variation go), but personally I've
> never heard of this "polypersonal" thing. Care to explain, Christophe?
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> 2013/8/30 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
>
> > 2013/8/30 Eugene Oh <un.do...@gmail.com>:
> > > Please ask on-list, Aiden, if you don't mind!
> >
> > I agree! I think that this subject is interesting for many people here.
> >
> > > I always like to read Christophe's views on Spoken French. Of course,
> > please don't feel obliged to just because I asked, it is just a selfish
> > request (:
> > >
> > > Eugene
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On 30 Aug 2013, at 08:10, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
> > tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 30 August 2013 06:03, Aidan Grey <taalenma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Rather than just another Future English, I'm working on a future
> > French.
> > >>> Wassa is a polysynthetic French that's lost its nasals and its
> > >>> uvular/guttural R, and I'm still playing with the idea of tones, but
> > not
> > >>> sure it's going to happen just yet.
> > >>>
> > >>> To that end - are there any good resources out there on colloquial /
> > slang
> > >>> French? The French I know / read is very academic and literary, and I
> > need
> > >>> to learn more about the ways that it's already changing.
> > >>>
> > >>> I've done some looking, but haven't had very good luck so far.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>> Aidan
> > >>
> > >> Well, one could call *me* a good resource on colloquial French (I
> > prefer to
> > >> call it "Spoken French", as there is nothing colloquial about it: even
> > the
> > >> formal registers of Spoken French are quite different from literary
> > >> French), but I guess you'd rather have something you can read at your
> > >> leisure, rather than someone who may not always be available to answer
> > your
> > >> questions :) .
> > >>
> > >> Unfortunately resources on Spoken French are indeed very scarce.
> > Resources
> > >> on vocabulary, and especially argot, are relatively easy to find, but
> > >> grammatical info is just missing.
> > >>
> > >> You can find bits and pieces here:
> > >> http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/negation_inf.htm (this page
> deals
> > with
> > >> negation, but also has links to other pages about Spoken French). In
> > terms
> > >> of books, _Colloquial French Grammar, a practical guide_ by Rodney
> Ball
> > is
> > >> not bad, but has a big hole in lacking a description of Spoken
> French's
> > >> polypersonal verbs. Could be because it's from 2000. The polypersonal
> > >> nature of Spoken French's verbs has been unrecognised for a long time,
> > >> maybe because there's still a strong impression among people that
> Spoken
> > >> French is a "debased" form of the language that is not worthy of
> study,
> > and
> > >> thus they will automatically code-switch to something somewhat closer
> to
> > >> Written French when asked questions about their own language.It's
> > difficult
> > >> to study a grammatical feature when the natives refuse to use it in
> > front
> > >> of the linguist :P.
> > >>
> > >> And of course you can always ask me questions, on- and off-list. I may
> > not
> > >> always reply immediately, but I *always* reply eventually :).
> > >> --
> > >> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
> > >>
> > >> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> > >> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
> >
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Rodrigo Aleixo" roddyale...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:03 am ((PDT))
Normaly I'm just a lurker (hello, all! I don't think I've ever introduced
myself, Rodrigo here - Newbie conlanger)
I found these links that might somewhat help.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/116593
(there's a free paper here)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3APolypersonal_agreement#French_polypersonalism.3F
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0501C&L=conlang&P=R18148
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0501C&L=conlang&P=R20913
http://www.mail-archive.com/conlang@yahoogroups.com/msg00186.html
On 30 August 2013 11:39, Mustafa Umut Sarac <mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I searched the google for polypersonal verbs and found nothing. Please link
> a free paper.
>
> Umut
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Jonathan Beagley <
> jonathan.beag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'll third that.
> >
> > Also, I may not be a native speaker of French, but I've lived in France
> for
> > the past two years and have a fairly advanced knowledge of Spoken French,
> > having also studied it at university.
> >
> > There are some interesting academic articles about Spoken French (at
> least
> > as far as dislocations and future tense variation go), but personally
> I've
> > never heard of this "polypersonal" thing. Care to explain, Christophe?
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> > 2013/8/30 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
> >
> > > 2013/8/30 Eugene Oh <un.do...@gmail.com>:
> > > > Please ask on-list, Aiden, if you don't mind!
> > >
> > > I agree! I think that this subject is interesting for many people here.
> > >
> > > > I always like to read Christophe's views on Spoken French. Of course,
> > > please don't feel obliged to just because I asked, it is just a selfish
> > > request (:
> > > >
> > > > Eugene
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > On 30 Aug 2013, at 08:10, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
> > > tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On 30 August 2013 06:03, Aidan Grey <taalenma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Rather than just another Future English, I'm working on a future
> > > French.
> > > >>> Wassa is a polysynthetic French that's lost its nasals and its
> > > >>> uvular/guttural R, and I'm still playing with the idea of tones,
> but
> > > not
> > > >>> sure it's going to happen just yet.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> To that end - are there any good resources out there on colloquial
> /
> > > slang
> > > >>> French? The French I know / read is very academic and literary,
> and I
> > > need
> > > >>> to learn more about the ways that it's already changing.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I've done some looking, but haven't had very good luck so far.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks,
> > > >>> Aidan
> > > >>
> > > >> Well, one could call *me* a good resource on colloquial French (I
> > > prefer to
> > > >> call it "Spoken French", as there is nothing colloquial about it:
> even
> > > the
> > > >> formal registers of Spoken French are quite different from literary
> > > >> French), but I guess you'd rather have something you can read at
> your
> > > >> leisure, rather than someone who may not always be available to
> answer
> > > your
> > > >> questions :) .
> > > >>
> > > >> Unfortunately resources on Spoken French are indeed very scarce.
> > > Resources
> > > >> on vocabulary, and especially argot, are relatively easy to find,
> but
> > > >> grammatical info is just missing.
> > > >>
> > > >> You can find bits and pieces here:
> > > >> http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/negation_inf.htm (this page
> > deals
> > > with
> > > >> negation, but also has links to other pages about Spoken French). In
> > > terms
> > > >> of books, _Colloquial French Grammar, a practical guide_ by Rodney
> > Ball
> > > is
> > > >> not bad, but has a big hole in lacking a description of Spoken
> > French's
> > > >> polypersonal verbs. Could be because it's from 2000. The
> polypersonal
> > > >> nature of Spoken French's verbs has been unrecognised for a long
> time,
> > > >> maybe because there's still a strong impression among people that
> > Spoken
> > > >> French is a "debased" form of the language that is not worthy of
> > study,
> > > and
> > > >> thus they will automatically code-switch to something somewhat
> closer
> > to
> > > >> Written French when asked questions about their own language.It's
> > > difficult
> > > >> to study a grammatical feature when the natives refuse to use it in
> > > front
> > > >> of the linguist :P.
> > > >>
> > > >> And of course you can always ask me questions, on- and off-list. I
> may
> > > not
> > > >> always reply immediately, but I *always* reply eventually :).
> > > >> --
> > > >> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
> > > >>
> > > >> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> > > >> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:05 am ((PDT))
On 30/08/2013 15:39, Mustafa Umut Sarac wrote:
> I searched the google for polypersonal verbs and found
> nothing.
You should at least have found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypersonal_agreement
Towards the end of that article there is mention of French:
"Some[who?] have observed that the French pronominal clitics
(common to all Romance languages) have evolved into
inseparable parts of the verb in the colloquial use, and so,
suggested that French could be analyzed as polypersonal."
In connexion with Spoken French, an interesting article is:
http://matnat.ronet.ru/articles/Arkadiev_TypSchool_Polysynthesis_Hand.pdf
This has been discussed on the conlang list, e.g.
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A3=ind0501C&L=CONLANG&E=8bit&P=829943&B=--&T=text%2Fplain;%20charset=ISO-8859-1&header=1
http://archives.conlang.info/zae/wivhun/gorqhuenwhoen.html
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language
began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:07 am ((PDT))
On 30 August 2013 16:11, Jonathan Beagley <jonathan.beag...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I'll third that.
>
> Also, I may not be a native speaker of French, but I've lived in France for
> the past two years and have a fairly advanced knowledge of Spoken French,
> having also studied it at university.
>
> There are some interesting academic articles about Spoken French (at least
> as far as dislocations and future tense variation go), but personally I've
> never heard of this "polypersonal" thing. Care to explain, Christophe?
>
>
Quite simple: in Modern Spoken French, it's quite common to include all
markings of person on the verb for the subject, and optionally direct and
indirect object (the so-called "personal pronouns"), even when said
arguments are already indicated somewhere else in the sentence. So
sentences like these are common:
- _J'lui ai parlé hier à ce gars-là _ ("I talked to that man yesterday".
_lui_ is present, despite the indirect object _à ce gars-là _ being already
present in the sentence);
- _Tu vois, ma femme elle en a toujours des bonnes idées_ ("You see, my
wife always has good ideas", the subject and direct object are both marked
on the verb, by _elle_ and en_ respectively, despite being present as full
noun phrases in the sentence).
My argument is that such sentences are an indication that the so-called
"personal pronouns" have moved away from being clitics to becoming
full-blown personal agreement affixes of the verb, turning French verbs
into polypersonal verbs, marking not only the subject but also the object
and the indirect object when those are present (as in Basque for instance).
Actually, more things have become affixes to the verb: the negative mark
_pas_ for instance.
This has resulted in added freedom in the position of noun phrases, and the
sentence _tu vois, ma femmes des bonnes idées elle en a toujours_ is a
perfectly grammatical alternative to my second example above.
As such, French starts looking more like a polysynthetic language than like
its fellow Romance languages.
As for cases where those polypersonal agreement suffixes are not used, I
attribute them to code-switching, something very common in situations of
effective diglossia. This does muddy the waters a bit, but doesn't change
my opinion that the verb in Modern Spoken French has truly evolved
full-blown polypersonal agreement.
On 30 August 2013 16:39, Mustafa Umut Sarac <mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I searched the google for polypersonal verbs and found nothing. Please link
> a free paper.
>
>
I have yet to find a single good paper devoted to that phenomenon in
French. However, I've seen it mentioned in throwaway lines in linguistic
articles on more than one occasion, so I'd be surprised if no article
existed at all.
And of course during my writing of this post quite a few links have already
been given by other people. The power of the Conlang list at work! :P
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Jonathan Beagley" jonathan.beag...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:38 am ((PDT))
OK, when you explain it that way it makes perfect sense. I've seen and
heard plenty of sentences like that, but I've never heard it referred to
that way. I've certainly also seen sentences like this in articles on
dislocation in French, but I don't recall hearing mention of this
phenomenon in particular. But again, as you've mentioned, I believe there
is a strong belief that most Spoken French is simply "wrong". This is a
sentiment I heard relatively frequently in my linguistics program,
particularly from the syntax prof (Claude Muller).
Jonathan
Le 30 août 2013 17:07, "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" <tsela...@gmail.com>
a écrit :
> On 30 August 2013 16:11, Jonathan Beagley <jonathan.beag...@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > I'll third that.
> >
> > Also, I may not be a native speaker of French, but I've lived in France
> for
> > the past two years and have a fairly advanced knowledge of Spoken French,
> > having also studied it at university.
> >
> > There are some interesting academic articles about Spoken French (at
> least
> > as far as dislocations and future tense variation go), but personally
> I've
> > never heard of this "polypersonal" thing. Care to explain, Christophe?
> >
> >
> Quite simple: in Modern Spoken French, it's quite common to include all
> markings of person on the verb for the subject, and optionally direct and
> indirect object (the so-called "personal pronouns"), even when said
> arguments are already indicated somewhere else in the sentence. So
> sentences like these are common:
> - _J'lui ai parlé hier à ce gars-là_ ("I talked to that man yesterday".
> _lui_ is present, despite the indirect object _à ce gars-là_ being already
> present in the sentence);
> - _Tu vois, ma femme elle en a toujours des bonnes idées_ ("You see, my
> wife always has good ideas", the subject and direct object are both marked
> on the verb, by _elle_ and en_ respectively, despite being present as full
> noun phrases in the sentence).
> My argument is that such sentences are an indication that the so-called
> "personal pronouns" have moved away from being clitics to becoming
> full-blown personal agreement affixes of the verb, turning French verbs
> into polypersonal verbs, marking not only the subject but also the object
> and the indirect object when those are present (as in Basque for instance).
> Actually, more things have become affixes to the verb: the negative mark
> _pas_ for instance.
> This has resulted in added freedom in the position of noun phrases, and the
> sentence _tu vois, ma femmes des bonnes idées elle en a toujours_ is a
> perfectly grammatical alternative to my second example above.
> As such, French starts looking more like a polysynthetic language than like
> its fellow Romance languages.
> As for cases where those polypersonal agreement suffixes are not used, I
> attribute them to code-switching, something very common in situations of
> effective diglossia. This does muddy the waters a bit, but doesn't change
> my opinion that the verb in Modern Spoken French has truly evolved
> full-blown polypersonal agreement.
>
> On 30 August 2013 16:39, Mustafa Umut Sarac <mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > I searched the google for polypersonal verbs and found nothing. Please
> link
> > a free paper.
> >
> >
> I have yet to find a single good paper devoted to that phenomenon in
> French. However, I've seen it mentioned in throwaway lines in linguistic
> articles on more than one occasion, so I'd be surprised if no article
> existed at all.
>
> And of course during my writing of this post quite a few links have already
> been given by other people. The power of the Conlang list at work! :P
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:59 am ((PDT))
On 30 August 2013 17:38, Jonathan Beagley <jonathan.beag...@gmail.com>wrote:
> OK, when you explain it that way it makes perfect sense. I've seen and
> heard plenty of sentences like that, but I've never heard it referred to
> that way. I've certainly also seen sentences like this in articles on
> dislocation in French, but I don't recall hearing mention of this
> phenomenon in particular. But again, as you've mentioned, I believe there
> is a strong belief that most Spoken French is simply "wrong". This is a
> sentiment I heard relatively frequently in my linguistics program,
> particularly from the syntax prof (Claude Muller).
>
>
Unfortunately, prescriptivism is pretty strong in France (thank the Academy
for that). But you'd think that linguists, of all people, would not fall
for it! What kind of a linguist can honestly think a form of language used
successfully by millions of people is "wrong"? What does it even mean?!
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:32 am ((PDT))
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets, On 30/08/2013 18:59:
> On 30 August 2013 17:38, Jonathan Beagley <jonathan.beag...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> But again, as you've mentioned, I believe there is a strong belief
>> that most Spoken French is simply "wrong". This is a sentiment I
>> heard relatively frequently in my linguistics program, particularly
>> from the syntax prof (Claude Muller).
>>
> Unfortunately, prescriptivism is pretty strong in France (thank the Academy
> for that). But you'd think that linguists, of all people, would not fall
> for it! What kind of a linguist can honestly think a form of language used
> successfully by millions of people is "wrong"? What does it even mean?!
Therefore, my suspicion is that Jonathan misunderstood his professor.
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets, On 30/08/2013 16:07:
> I have yet to find a single good paper devoted to that phenomenon in
> French. However, I've seen it mentioned in throwaway lines in linguistic
> articles on more than one occasion, so I'd be surprised if no article
> existed at all.
I don't know of a relevant article, but I too am familiar with the polypersonal
analysis of French, through channels other than Conlang, so given that, and the
facts of French, I presume that that analysis is pretty mainstream among
typologically-minded syntacticians.
--And.
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:17 pm ((PDT))
On 30 August 2013 20:31, And Rosta <and.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately, prescriptivism is pretty strong in France (thank the Academy
>
>> for that). But you'd think that linguists, of all people, would not fall
>> for it! What kind of a linguist can honestly think a form of language used
>> successfully by millions of people is "wrong"? What does it even mean?!
>>
>
> Therefore, my suspicion is that Jonathan misunderstood his professor.
>
I hope so, but having undergone the French education system myself, I know
that children from a very young age are brainwashed into thinking that
French (at least the variety we learn at school, which is Literary French
as sanctioned by the Academy) is the superior language, and anything else,
even other forms of French, are debased, inferior languages (including
English). I managed to de-brainwash myself, but that's mostly because my
love for foreign languages was too big to allow me to accept the idea that
French was somehow superior to them :P. And I know that many otherwise
intelligent people still think, to this day and age, that French is somehow
the one perfect language for humankind, and anything else is barely worth
considering. How else would you explain why French people make so little
effort into learning English? Also, as I often say, being intelligent
doesn't prevent one from believing in stupid things, it just expands the
realm of possibilities :).
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets, On 30/08/2013 16:07:
>
> I have yet to find a single good paper devoted to that phenomenon in
>> French. However, I've seen it mentioned in throwaway lines in linguistic
>> articles on more than one occasion, so I'd be surprised if no article
>> existed at all.
>>
>
> I don't know of a relevant article, but I too am familiar with the
> polypersonal analysis of French, through channels other than Conlang, so
> given that, and the facts of French, I presume that that analysis is pretty
> mainstream among typologically-minded syntacticians.
>
>
I hope so. The fact that French is effectively a diglossia (no different
from the Arabic, Greek during the Katharevousa period, or Latin ones)
maskerading as a single, centrally controlled language does muddy the
waters a bit, and can make people miss some otherwise obvious facts.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1j. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:57 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 09:17:07PM +0200, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 30 August 2013 20:31, And Rosta <and.ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> > I don't know of a relevant article, but I too am familiar with the
> > polypersonal analysis of French, through channels other than
> > Conlang, so given that, and the facts of French, I presume that that
> > analysis is pretty mainstream among typologically-minded
> > syntacticians.
> >
> >
> I hope so. The fact that French is effectively a diglossia (no
> different from the Arabic, Greek during the Katharevousa period, or
> Latin ones) maskerading as a single, centrally controlled language
> does muddy the waters a bit, and can make people miss some otherwise
> obvious facts.
[...]
This makes me wonder if most languages are actually some kind of
polyglossia, consisting of distinct sublanguages calcified from various
points of development from the ancestral language. Perhaps honorific
systems are actually examples of polyglossia that developed out of
calcified expressions of an older form of the language? Some honorific
systems have registers that behave almost like distinct languages --
e.g., in older forms of Malay, different registers not only have
distinct sets of pronouns (many of which are still in use today), but
even distinct vocabulary (certain common nouns are substituted with
presumably more archaic forms, and it's considered rude to use the
common word to refer to the same things when speaking in that register),
and in some cases, unique aspects of grammar not present in other
registers of the language.
It reminds me of certain kinds of lava flows (this is the san faran in
me coming out ;-))... specifically, pahoehoe lava. While we usually
think of the entire flow as a unit, it's actually not that simple due to
the viscosity of the lava and the fact that it is solid at room
temperature. So there is not a single "head" of the flow; instead, the
flow front consists of many "toes" of hot lava which begin to solidify
upon contact with air into a black "skin". This skin thickens over time
due to cooling by the surrounding environment, but it becomes an
insulation to the hotter lava inside, which therefore remains molten. As
long as the lava source is still feeding more lava into the flow, the
pressure of the molten lava under the solidified skin eventually finds
gaps to break forth, thus starting another "toe". This toe, upon
emerging from the solidified skin, instantly starts to solidify, so upon
reaching a certain size, it gets stuck as a solid skin holding in the
molten lava inside again. Then new molten lava under the skin will seek
new gaps to flow out through, and thus create new "toes" in the flow.
It seems an apt analogy for how language develops. The molten lava is
the inevitable language change, that, despite being held back by
solidified parts of the language, will inevitably find new areas in
which to break forth and form a new "toe" (innovation, whether
sound-wise or grammar-wise). The "front" of the lava flow, representing
the current state of the language, is not a single toe or a single
solidified skin, but an ever-changing multitude of fresh toes, newly
emerged, and solidified toes that eventually will be broken through and
covered over by new innovations, or left behind in the back of the flow,
calcified and mostly forgotten.
(If you've no idea what I'm talking about, look up pahoehoe videos on
youtube sometime -- it's pretty amazing how it flows, not as a fiery
version of a (water) river, as most people would imagine, but something
quite fascinatingly unique.)
T
--
There are two ways to write error-free programs; only the third one works.
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
1k. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:57 pm ((PDT))
--- Original Message -----
> Also, as I often say, being intelligent doesn't prevent one from believing in
> stupid things, it
> just expands the realm of possibilities :).
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets, On 30/08/2013 16:07:
I really like that! I hope you'll allow me to use it in the future.
I've translated it into Senjecas:
þumtás úðos móóɱon óóu à fa sába ne: dà à mu maaxtám rééƶom
réɱa:
intelligence-STA.sg. possession-NOM.sg. stupid-MOT.pl. from prevent-IND not:
just possibility-STA.pl. realm-MOT.sg. expand-IND
Charlie
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. I am sure
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:29 pm ((PDT))
Hi!
I'm having trouble figuring out the function of the noun clause following "I am
sure that..."
If it's a noun clause, what is its function?
And it doesn't seem to be indirect discourse.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: I am sure
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" bvticvlar...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:40 pm ((PDT))
what do you mean "function"? the function is obviously to state what you're
sure of.
it can't be a noun clause, right? because it can't be substituted with a
simple noun. you can't say "I am sure that pancake." (though on parts of
the internet, *clauses* like "...because, pancake." seem acceptable
nowadays.)
matt
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 4:29 PM, C. Brickner <tepeyach...@embarqmail.com>wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm having trouble figuring out the function of the noun clause following
> "I am sure that..."
>
> If it's a noun clause, what is its function?
>
> And it doesn't seem to be indirect discourse.
>
> Charlie
>
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: I am sure
Posted by: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:48 pm ((PDT))
"C. Brickner" <tepeyach...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm having trouble figuring out the function of the noun clause
> following "I am sure that..." If it's a noun clause, what is its
> function? And it doesn't seem to be indirect discourse. Charlie
Aren't these called "complement clauses"?
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: I am sure
Posted by: p...@phillipdriscoll.com
Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:50 pm ((PDT))
Matthew Boutilier <bvticvlar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> it can't be a noun clause, right? because it can't be substituted with a
> simple noun. you can't say "I am sure that pancake." (though on parts of
> the internet, *clauses* like "...because, pancake." seem acceptable
> nowadays.)
I've only seen this used in a sarcastic way:
"They don't allow the biology students to use knives because safety!"
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (4)
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