There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Gateway to conscripts (was: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorte
From: Matthew George
2a. A Small Interactive Conlanging Project of mine
From: Nico Baier
2b. Re: A Small Interactive Conlanging Project of mine
From: Alex Fink
3a. Spoken Indo-European
From: Andrew Jarrette
3b. Re: Spoken Indo-European
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
3c. Re: Spoken Indo-European
From: Padraic Brown
3d. Re: Spoken Indo-European
From: Padraic Brown
3e. Re: Spoken Indo-European
From: Alex Fink
3f. Re: Spoken Indo-European
From: taliesin the storyteller
4.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
From: Henrik Theiling
5a. "Re: Colloquial French resources"
From: Leonardo Castro
5b. Re: "Re: Colloquial French resources"
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
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1a. Re: Gateway to conscripts (was: Intro to Conlanging by John McWhorte
Posted by: "Matthew George" matt....@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:26 am ((PDT))
Yes. Let us say that the symbols are the futhark, and the symbolic system
is not.
Matt G.
Messages in this topic (25)
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2a. A Small Interactive Conlanging Project of mine
Posted by: "Nico Baier" nico.ba...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:19 am ((PDT))
I've been away from conlanging for a while (turns out grad school gets in the
way of hobbies, sometimes, who knew?). I've decided to jump start getting back
into it with a little experiment.
Instead of just posting updates at my own pace, I have made two threads, one on
the ZBB and one on the CBB. Both were seeded with the same initial sketchy
phonology, and then I told people to ask me questions about how I deal with
various morphosyntactic phenomena in the language, without ever having thought
about it before. These are questions like, "how do you form relative clauses",
"How do non-verbal predicates work?", "is there case?".
My job is to answer those prompts, and if something isn't in place for me to
answer that question, make it up as I go along. I've found it's gotten me
actively thinking of multiple areas of the grammar at once, which has been very
helpful.
The two threads are influencing each other, so anything said in one thread is
valid in the other. I would like to expand the horizons though, and have people
ask me questions here, as well, if they would be so kind. I think the more eyes
on this the better, and the fast questions are generated. I'm trying to answer
at least one a day.
I've included links to the two threads, and if people would like, I can post
the latest version of the phonology in this thread as well. I may write up some
kind of evolving summary document when I have the chance, so that there will be
one source for the grammar.
ZBB Thread: http://tinyurl.com/kphnaxp
CBB Thread: http://tinyurl.com/lmlhzqr
There you can see some of the decisions I've already made. If it would be
easier, I can also post the phonology sketch in a direct reply to this message.
Fire away!
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: A Small Interactive Conlanging Project of mine
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Oct 1, 2013 6:15 am ((PDT))
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 14:18:48 -0400, Nico Baier <nico.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I've been away from conlanging for a while (turns out grad school gets in the
>way of hobbies, sometimes, who knew?). I've decided to jump start getting back
>into it with a little experiment.
[...]
Neat. I'll toss in a few:
- Are there any sort of serial verbs or complex predicate constructions?
- How are locative predicates done ("the dog is in the tree"?) How 'bout
attributively ("the dog in the tree saw me"?)
- Are there morphological limitations on the use of your verbal stem
extensions, e.g. on the number which can occur at once? Are they involved in
any nontrivial morphophonology? (Various Niger-Congo languages have
interesting things here, tied to morphophonological constraints on the maximal
base and suchlike.)
Alex
Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Spoken Indo-European
Posted by: "Andrew Jarrette" anjarre...@yahoo.ca
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:59 pm ((PDT))
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/trending-language-spoken-first-time-070000096.html?vp=1
Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Spoken Indo-European
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" hcesarcas...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:05 pm ((PDT))
Jarrette,
this video is not available in my location, and I think it will not be
available in the location of other members of this mailing list.
Is this the same spoken indo-european fables shown here:
http://archaeology.org/exclusives/articles/1302-proto-indo-european-schleichers-fable
?
On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Andrew Jarrette <anjarre...@yahoo.ca>wrote:
>
> http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/trending-language-spoken-first-time-070000096.html?vp=1
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Spoken Indo-European
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:16 pm ((PDT))
> http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/trending-language-spoken-first-time-070000096.html?vp=1
So...
...the fable was first written in 1868 and ónly júst nòw this guy comes along
and reads it aloud
for the very first time in the history of the universe?
Sadly, this kind of inane sensationalism is all too typical of Yahoo Snews. I
mean really? "Here
it is for the first time ever"?? Schleicher's Fable has been on Youtube for a
couple years at
least, read by several different folks and one even has a nice animation. I'm
sure the author himself
read it aloud a time or three during his career, and quite probably all the
authors of subsequent
modifications read their versions as well.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Spoken Indo-European
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:18 pm ((PDT))
> this video is not available in my location, and I think it will not be
> available in the location of other members of this mailing list.
>
> Is this the same spoken indo-european fables shown here:
> http://archaeology.org/exclusives/articles/1302-proto-indo-european-schleichers-fable
> ?
Sounds about like the same voice. Some guy from Uni. of Kentucky. You can find
others on Youtube if you'd like to compare.
Padraic
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Andrew Jarrette
> <anjarre...@yahoo.ca>wrote:
>
>>
>>
> http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/trending-language-spoken-first-time-070000096.html?vp=1
>>
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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3e. Re: Spoken Indo-European
Posted by: "Alex Fink" 000...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Oct 1, 2013 3:42 am ((PDT))
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 20:59:55 -0400, Andrew Jarrette <anjarre...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/trending-language-spoken-first-time-070000096.html?vp=1
There was some discussion of this on Language Log:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=7179
among other things regarding the fact that Byrd's *h1 seems quite close to his
*h2. I was pleased to see Martin Kümmel cited as endorsing values h1 = /h/, h2
= /X/, h3 = /R/, which is more or less my position (though I'm not sure what I
think of the question of whether h3 was rounded yet).
Of more general interest, the book this is taken from, Kümmel's
_Konsonantenwandel: Bausteine zu einer Typologie des Lautwandels und ihre
Konsequenzen für die vergleichende Rekonstruktion_ appears to be a specimen of
a type that many conlangers have wished for*, namely, a catalogue of sound
changes and study of their probability. Kümmel's scope is Indo-European,
Uralic, and Semitic. Now only to get my hands on a copy...
* and some have embarked on producing, e.g.
http://jc.tech-galaxy.com/bricka/sound_changes.html
http://www.frathwiki.com/Velar_consonant#Sound_changes_involving_velars
Alex
Messages in this topic (6)
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3f. Re: Spoken Indo-European
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" taliesin-conl...@nvg.org
Date: Tue Oct 1, 2013 4:17 am ((PDT))
On 2013-10-01 12:42, Alex Fink wrote:
> Konsonantenwandel: Bausteine zu einer Typologie des Lautwandels und
> ihre Konsequenzen für die vergleichende Rekonstruktion
http://www.amazon.com/Konsonantenwandel-Lautwandels-Konsequenzen-vergleichende-Rekonstruktion/dp/3895005908
At "just" $99 it's not the most expensive linguistics-book I've come
across... but then again, I try to collect reference grammars.
t.
Messages in this topic (6)
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4.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" h...@theiling.de
Date: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:05 pm ((PDT))
The following is the de facto Conlang-L FAQ, hosted at:
http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ
This is automatically posted once a month, copied directly from that page,
for the benefit of new members. If you would like to change it, please
edit it at the link above.
**Henrik
==Where to get Conlang-L==
The official archives are at http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html .
>From there, you can search the archives, get an RSS feed, manage your
subscription, etc.
It's also the ONLY place you can go to sign up and post things to the list.
A read-only archive with a nicer user interface is at
http://archives.conlang.info/ . [As of April 2009 this archive has ceased
mirroring new messages. Henrik Theiling knows about the problem and has said
he's planning to fix it but hasn't had time to do so yet.]
Conlang-L is also _mirrored_ as a Yahoo group, but there is no way to have
posts to the Yahoo group sent to the actual list. Do *not* subscribe to the
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http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html instead!
==A brief history of the list==
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Denmark on 23 March, 1993.
The original note reads in part:
''By agreement with John Ross, the CONLANG mailing list has been moved to
diku.dk, the mail hub of the CS Department of the University of Copenhagen.
Send all submissions to CONLANG at diku dot dk. The address at buphy still
works, but it is just an alias for the new list.''
''Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dept) (Humour NOT marked)''
(Note that the submission address in that historical note '''NO LONGER
WORKS'''.)
Later, growing traffic and changes at the university necessitated a move. In
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Before the move, threads centered on debates on the relative merits of
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In ??? John Cowan took over actual moderation duties, as "Lord of the
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Later the torch was passed to Henrik Theiling.
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Example:
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Note that tags ARE included after the "was", but "Re:" is NOT, nor is
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==Acronyms==
List of acronyms specific to the Conlang Mailing List:
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** AFMOCL - "As for my own conlang"
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idiolect], depending on context)
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Acronyms not on this list might be in general usage: try
[http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aafaict Google's define:] or
[http://www.acronymfinder.com/ Acronym Finder].
==Other conlang-specific vocabulary==
>From [http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Conlang%20Dictionary/ here] and
[http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/faq.html here]. See also [[Conlang
terminology]].
con__
* constructed __ (generally a contraction): conlang, conworld, conhistory,
conculture, ...
__lang
* a language characterised by ___ (generally a contraction): conlang, artlang,
auxlang, ...
[[artlang]]
# A language constructed for the beauty or fun of doing so. [From art(istic) +
lang(uage)]
# (See conlang) [From art(ificial) + lang(uage)]
[[auxlang]]
* A language constructed to replace or complement natlangs to facilitate
cross-linguistic communication. [From aux(iliary) + lang(uage)]
concultural [From con(structed) + cultur(e) + al]
* Adjective form of "conculture".
[[conculture]] [From con(structed) + culture]
* A fictional culture created as a backdrop to a conlang. See also "conworld".
[[conlang]] [From con(structed) + lang(uage)]
# n. A constructed language
# v. To construct a language
[[CONLANG]] (all caps), conlang-l, Conlang-L, or CONLANG-L
* A very active conlang mailing list hosted by brown.edu, and currently
operated by Henrik Theiling
[[conworld]] [From con(structed) + world]
* A fictional world created to host a conlang or conculture. See also
"conculture".
[[engelang]] /ËendÊlæÅ/ [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
* A conlang that is designed to certain criteria, such that it is objectively
testable whether the criteria are met or not. This is different from claiming
that the criteria themselves are 'objective'. For example, the Lojban/Loglan
roots are designed to be maximally recognisable to the speakers of the
(numerically) largest languages in the world in proportion to the number of
speakers. It is not a matter of taste whether this criterion is met; it is
something that can be tested. (by John Cowan) [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
etabnannery /raËmnænÉɹi/ (rare)
* The state of appearing entirely unpredictable, but, upon closer analysis,
failing at even being that. [From EtáÌbnann(i), a conlang by Tristan McLeay,
which was supposed to have an unpredictable orthography, but ended up just
having a confusing one. Damn people trying to make patterns everywhere. At
least it's a bugger to typeset!... errm... back to the derivation + -ery]
maggelity /mÉËgÉlɪti/ (rare) [From Maggel, a conlang by Christophe
Grandsire which has a rarely predictable orthography]
# The state of being entirely unpredictable. (Tristan McLeay)
# The state of being regularly unpredictable, such as to horribly confuse
anyone unfamiliar with the language, lulling them into a full sense of
security before pointing out, cartoon-character-style, that the ground no
longer exists where they're standing. (Tristan McLeay and H. S. Teoh)
Maggel's Paradox (rare)
* Your radical ideas have already occurred to others. (Muke Tever)
[[natlang]] [From nat(ural) + lang(uage)]
# A natural language, i.e., one that naturally developed in the world, as
opposed to a conlang.
ObConlang (or ObCL)
* Just before something about conlanging in an otherwise off-topic post.
* From ob(ligatory) + conlang (i.e., an obligatory on-topic comment about
conlangs just so that the post isn't completely off-topic).
[[translation relay]]
* A game similar to Telephone or Chinese Whispers, wherein the participants
translate a passage one at a time, in serial, into their own languages - and
then marvel at how far from the original the translations have gotten.
==CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA)==
[[CXS]] is a version of X-SAMPA for use on the CONLANG mailing list. X-SAMPA
is a way to write the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) using normal
plain-ASCII text that everyone can read.
* [http://www.theiling.de/ipa/ Theiling Online: Conlang X-Sampa (CXS)] -
includes CXS-to-IPA conversion chart
* [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Appendix/CXS CXS at Wikibooks]
==Related lists==
The Auxlang list, mentioned above, is dedicated to international auxiliary
languages. Its archives and subscription interface are at
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/auxlang.html .
The list re...@calcifer.valdyas.org is dedicated to the planning and
conducting of [[conlang relay]]s, q.v.
==Resources==
* [http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/faq.html Arthaey's Conlang FAQ]
* [http://www.langmaker.com LangMaker] - repository of many conlang
"biographies"
* [http://wiki.frath.net Frath Wiki] - a similar site, and host of the
Conlang-L (wikified) FAQ
* [http://www.omniglot.com Omniglot] - which has information on more writing
systems than you thought could exist
{{Conlangculture}}
[[Category:Terminology]]
Messages in this topic (39)
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5a. "Re: Colloquial French resources"
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Oct 1, 2013 3:23 am ((PDT))
> Le 30 août 2013 17:07, "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets"
> - _Tu vois, ma femme elle en a toujours des bonnes idées_ ("You see, my
> wife always has good ideas", the subject and direct object are both marked
> on the verb, by _elle_ and en_ respectively, despite being present as full
> noun phrases in the sentence).
I was thinking about this and remember that, when I was studying
Spanish with an old course in CD-ROM, constructions like "a mí me
gustaría" were presented as "customary redundancy".
Don't you think that it would be simpler to think about customary
redundancy than about polypersonal verbs in French too?
BTW, I have been already corrected for writing "ça c'est..." in a
composition in a French as second language course, but it's much rarer
to find "ça est..." in real-life texts.
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: "Re: Colloquial French resources"
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Oct 1, 2013 6:20 am ((PDT))
From: Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
>> Le 30 août 2013 17:07, "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets"
>> - _Tu vois, ma femme elle en a toujours des bonnes idées_ ("You see, my
>> wife always has good ideas", the subject and direct object are both marked
>> on the verb, by _elle_ and en_ respectively, despite being present as full
>> noun phrases in the sentence).
>
>I was thinking about this and remember that, when I was studying
>Spanish with an old course in CD-ROM, constructions like "a mí me
>gustaría" were presented as "customary redundancy".
>
>Don't you think that it would be simpler to think about customary
>redundancy than about polypersonal verbs in French too?
I don't know. To me "customary redundancy" sounds like the author or presenter
simply doesn't want to be bothered getting into a highly interesting historical
philological tangent and is just covering it up. It's a more grown up way of
saying
"because I said so (now don't ask any more questions)!" but the result is the
same.
Clearly, something is going in French and Spanish (and indeed English: you see,
my wife, she always has good ideas) that is being glossed over. Dunnow about
F&S, but for me, I'd take Christophe's original English example as plain, while
the "customary redundancy" is actually some kind of marker of focus. He's sort
of distancing himself from his wife, as if to say "my wife always has good
ideas,
while I can never keep two thoughts in a row in my own head".
>BTW, I have been already corrected for writing "ça c'est..." in a
>composition in a French as second language course, but it's much rarer
>to find "ça est..." in real-life texts.
Just curious: what's wrong with it?
Padraic
>Até mais!
>
>Leonardo
>
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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