There are 3 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: PIE short and long vowels (was Spoken Indo-European)
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
1b. Re: PIE short and long vowels (was Spoken Indo-European)
From: Matthew Boutilier
2. THEORY: Native languages of the Americas in popular music
From: Leonardo Castro
Messages
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1a. Re: PIE short and long vowels (was Spoken Indo-European)
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" hcesarcas...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Oct 1, 2013 6:55 pm ((PDT))
germanic evidence:
long vs. short vowels is North Germanic languages
and long vs. short vowels in West Germanic languages before the Great Vowel
Shift
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Matthew Boutilier
<bvticvlar...@gmail.com>wrote:
> greek /e:/ (<ει>) reflects PIE short *e that was somehow lengthened
> *after*the PIE period (generally as a result of the loss of a
> following consonant)
> ... or also the output of the PIE diphthong *ei (hence the orthography).
> the parallel with /o:/ (vs. /O:/ = <ω>) is true as well. so, one cannot use
> the greek evidence to argue for multiple non-high vowel heights in PIE.
>
> and, when you lose /e:/ and /o:/, the "height difference" between Gk /e/ ~
> /o/ and /E:/ ~ /O:/ may as well be sub-phomenic.
>
> what is this germanic evidence you speak of?
>
> matt
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 8:33 PM, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <
> hcesarcas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Thricely Latin, Ancient Greek and Germanic languages have different
> heights
> > for vowels of different length, e.g. in Ancient Greek, Eta was probably
> > pronounced /E:/ and Epsilon /e/, analogously you have Omega as /O:/ and
> > omicron as /o/. On the other hand, Classical Latin and the Germanic
> > languages tend to use short vowels with more open pronunciation than the
> > long vowels, for instance /E/ vs. /e:/ and /O/ vs. /o:/ (and also /I/ vs.
> > /i:/ and /U/ vs. /u:/).
> >
> >
> > Is it so common for West IE languages to have this height distinction
> > between short and long vowels? What about the East IE languages? Is it
> > possible for PIE to have this distinction?
> >
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: PIE short and long vowels (was Spoken Indo-European)
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" bvticvlar...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Oct 1, 2013 7:27 pm ((PDT))
long vowels in Gmc come from 1. short vowels before laryngeals (or nasals
that in various Gmc dialects were lost before fricatives), or 2.
monophthongization of PIE diphthongs (the only one being *ei > *ī), or 3.
(North and West Germanic only) the so-called "*ē2" apparently as a
simplification of reduplicated perfects.
you seem to be hinting at the (phonemic) difference between Middle English
/e:/ and /E:/. i ask you: what does this have to do with PIE?
matt
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <
hcesarcas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> germanic evidence:
> long vs. short vowels is North Germanic languages
> and long vs. short vowels in West Germanic languages before the Great Vowel
> Shift
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Matthew Boutilier
> <bvticvlar...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > greek /e:/ (<ει>) reflects PIE short *e that was somehow lengthened
> > *after*the PIE period (generally as a result of the loss of a
> > following consonant)
> > ... or also the output of the PIE diphthong *ei (hence the orthography).
> > the parallel with /o:/ (vs. /O:/ = <ω>) is true as well. so, one cannot
> use
> > the greek evidence to argue for multiple non-high vowel heights in PIE.
> >
> > and, when you lose /e:/ and /o:/, the "height difference" between Gk /e/
> ~
> > /o/ and /E:/ ~ /O:/ may as well be sub-phomenic.
> >
> > what is this germanic evidence you speak of?
> >
> > matt
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 8:33 PM, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <
> > hcesarcas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thricely Latin, Ancient Greek and Germanic languages have different
> > heights
> > > for vowels of different length, e.g. in Ancient Greek, Eta was probably
> > > pronounced /E:/ and Epsilon /e/, analogously you have Omega as /O:/ and
> > > omicron as /o/. On the other hand, Classical Latin and the Germanic
> > > languages tend to use short vowels with more open pronunciation than
> the
> > > long vowels, for instance /E/ vs. /e:/ and /O/ vs. /o:/ (and also /I/
> vs.
> > > /i:/ and /U/ vs. /u:/).
> > >
> > >
> > > Is it so common for West IE languages to have this height distinction
> > > between short and long vowels? What about the East IE languages? Is it
> > > possible for PIE to have this distinction?
> > >
> >
>
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2. THEORY: Native languages of the Americas in popular music
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Oct 2, 2013 6:43 am ((PDT))
I think that songs in Guarani are not only "folk music" in Paraguay,
but "popular music", because they are in the music industry of that
country, with professional production, video clips, etc. There's even
a music genre called "guarania".
E.g.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_So2t21pms0
Are there other similar examples? Or is it part of the unique history
of Guarani among all native languages of the Americas? (Isn't really
there a gentilic for "the Americas" in English? Can I use "American"?)
BTW, I remember having heard an explanation for the difference in the
fates of American and African languages: the Americas were "new
Europes" while Africa environment was much more hostile to Europeans ;
European diseases killed native Americans while African diseases
killed Europeans. I don't if it's the preferred explanation nowadays.
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (1)
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