GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: I think you bring up a really important point, Caryn. The way a lot of these organizations operate is through implication and intimidation. If these people are implicated in this criminal activity, they are drawn in, and they can be drawn in and blackmailed as you say, under the influence of drugs, and under other kinds of influences. WAYNE MORRIS: This of course has profound implications for our society where we are supposed to be electing public officials who will represent the public, but really how healthy of a system can that be when these layers of blackmail are happening right up the hierarchy. CARYN STARDANCER: It has always been this way. The stories I was told for example, by the Dionysian Sect - the oldest laws ever passed against ritual abuse were passed in Rome through Christ and they were made against the very Dionysians Sects that were still in operation in the forties and fifties, and which I assume are still in operation now. The reason the laws were made against them was because at that time there were citizens and then there were people who were not citizens - and it was known that in the rituals there were sexual orgies, flaying (skinning of people), flagellation, abuse and ritual rape of women and children. That isn't why there were laws made against the groups - the laws were made against the groups because of the practice of common commission of crime for the purpose of political blackmail. WAYNE MORRIS: I would like to focus now on survivor issues, and what your experiences are in terms of resources available for survivors, and how that has been changing over the last ten years or so? CARYN STARDANCER: Well, compared to when I was in recovery, there are a lot of resources and a lot of information. However when we first started making that recovery - it was a lot better climate. Now there is the backlash, and the backlash is having a very chilling effect on the availability of services in that even a therapist who treats a survivor is running risks at this point of suit under the guise of "alleged false memories". It is really difficult at this point, although there are still resources available. As I said, Survivorship has members all over the place, and we provide as much information as possible and there are still people willing to take the risk of providing treatment and giving information. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: I would like to say that Survivorship is an excellent resource - a lot of people I work with have found it, and I have found it to be a really excellent resource. I am wondering Caryn if you could provide information on how to contact you because Survivorship is one of the best sources of information available today. CARYN STARDANCER: We have an address in San Francisco: 3181 Mission St. #139, San Francisco, California, 94110. We also have e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] and we have a website www.ctsserver.com/~svship WAYNE MORRIS: Can you describe what kind of issues you deal with, and what Survivorship typically deals with in an issue. CARYN STARDANCER: Our focus is the use of belief systems and abuse together - members are everyone from those who have experienced ritualistic torture, political torture, religious torture, mind control, government mind control. Basically it's across the board because our focus is to help people get out of a traumatic conditioned response lifestyle. The way we address it - it's a non-profit organization - we have a real eclectic kind of approach - we talk about politics, we talk about recovery, personal experience. We allow people the ability to do their art and their writing. As well we have sections for teens, Gen-X, family members, partners, children (survivors and children of survivors). We take a broad approach - this type of abuse impacts every aspect of a person's humanity. You have to address every aspect of that person in order to have healing. And healing is what we are really interested in - freedom to experience free will, a quality of life they may never have known. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: I think fortunately the litigation in Canada has not gone so berserk as it has in the States. In terms of litigation Canada tends to be more conservative and there are fortunately more barriers to litigation. Although I do think it's on the increase and we tend to be often about 10 years behind the US. I would say the backlash has had a tremendous effect - an impact on therapists who are treating survivors and it certainly has had an impact on survivors who are recalling this kind of abuse. As they uncover what has happened to them, they have a certain kind of resistance that is protective, to wanting to believe this themselves - so when the environment is feeding back to them that this doesn't exist, or can't exist, and there is all the false memory propaganda, as I like to call it - in the media - I think it has quite a harmful impact on survivors. On the other hand, one of the things that is happening with survivors is that when they are able to network, when they are able to get good information such as the information that is available in Survivorship - then there's strengthening that occurs against the backlash as well. And I know a number of very strong survivors speaking out against the false memory foundation. CARYN STARDANCER: The wonderful thing about global communication at this point is now the door is open and it can't be shut. Throughout history when the door has been opened before, it has been pretty easy to shut. Essentially you would have a few people talking, and a few people could be easily silenced, and they had no way of knowing there were a few people in the next town, and a few people in another country talking about the same thing. They cannot silence us at this point. It is not possible. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: I think also there are some legal cases where ritual abuse is involved, and certainly in Canada there have been some prosecutions where ritual abuse has been a component of the abuse that has been prosecuted successfully. We had a big case in Prescott, Ontario where there have been signed confessions around ritual activity. CARYN STARDANCER: I also think it is really fortunate that in Canada you had some press coverage of some notorious cases - I am thinking of the Mt. Cashel - the religious abuse in orphanages - and that was well publicized before the backlash so it isn't that difficult for people to go 'wait a minute, this really happened.' So when you have people coming along saying it doesn't happen - it isn't quite as effective. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: I think what has been really useful is when the cases are prosecuted on the pornography rings - on the criminal activity that people know happen - and when these kinds of child prostitution rings, child pornography rings - when they are broken and when there is investigatiion into them and successful prosecution - that really does help. I think there are more and more investigations and prosecutions into those kinds of specific concentrations of criminal activity. CARYN STARDANCER: i think one of the things that is pretty instructive though is to see, for example in the United States I have seen newspapers practically side by side at times - news reports about cult activity, notoriously during the Branch Davidian disaster. There was another case with a small church in the Bay area - torture - and at the same time, in the same paper - there were false memory articles saying 'this didn't happen, this is all made up, this never happens.' These things would be side by side and people still wouldn't see it - and the thing that is interesting to me is that these are people reading the paper who supposedly didn't even have mind control - the denial is so pervasive the readers can almost have a split mind about it. Without having forced dissociative systems. WAYNE MORRIS: People listening to this radio series have wondered about themselves, and looked at their own lives, wondering if there has been any kind of abuse that occurred during their own childhood. Are there any suggestions you can give people with those questions in their minds? GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: This is one of those tricky areas the false memory people pounce on if you talk about these things. There are a lot of indicators that somebody has had an abusive history. Some of the indicators are panic attacks - and within those panic attacks they are getting basically flashbacks which may not be recognized as such of violence or sex and violence, and people in black robes - basically what they are getting is fragments of memory that have been dissociated suddenly surfacing. Certainly dissociation indicates that there has been repeated trauma in somebody's life, so if someone finds they are spacing out a lot - in other words, there are minutes, maybe hours or maybe days of time they can't fully account for - with only vague recollections - this is an indication that there has been some sort of trauma in that person's life and it's probably a useful thing to get some therapeutic help from someone who knows about dissociation. Certainly there are other kinds of indicators - people who I have worked with have found with have found strange things in their houses or apartments that they can't account for. It may be something like blood for instance, or someone left a glove behind, and they don't know where these things came from. This doesn't mean that ritual abuse took place specifically - but if there are a number of things that the person can't account for, and is confused about, it's useful to start with help, I suggest, to try to understand what some of the explanations might be. There are many many indicators that abuse has occurred. It's a complex topic and it is part of the reason why it is so difficult to counter the false memory quick media bites because dissociation, traumatic memory, all of these things are quite a bit more complex, and can't really be understood with a quick five second or even five minute explanation. WAYNE MORRIS: This is Mr. Grant on the line. Do you have a question or a comment for a panel. CALLER: This is from a book I bought in 1989 and read right through in 1990. I will just read the blurb on the back, and I think you will get the picture. It's by Louis Zamoski. It's called, "Behind the Facade of the Masonic Temple: Masonry and financial capital, Masonry and the war machine, Masonry and profit - when you lay bare such links, you also expose yourself to the risk that your opponents will charge you with simplification, but what will the reader say when he hears that the basic law of the Masons central project is merely the law of profit, and also the establishment of a world economic government. Who said so? A Marxist, an anti-Masonic scribbler? Far from it. Those words came from Licio Gelli, friend and supporter and a member of the P-2 Lodge, writer Pierre Capri. Pierre Capri explains that the point concerns placing society under control of particular corporations which identify themselves with an economic power. At the same time, directly or indirectly, they are also identified with political powers." This was published by Progress Publishers in 1989 in Moscow. If you remember that was the year of the so-called collapse of Communism. That's all I have to say. I agree with all of this I have just read. WAYNE MORRIS: Great. Thank you for your comments Mr. Grant. I think you have raised an important point here. We have been hearing allegations against the Masonic Lodge, generally high-ranking members. Their historical positions in society have been quite formidable. We are going to go to another caller now. CALLER: It's more of a question. I have a close friend who is involved in the Emin Society. Is anyone knowledgeable of that? WAYNE MORRIS: I'm not. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: What can you tell us about it? CALLER: It's a group in London, England that is operating here in Toronto and the members donate $160 per month for the ability to go and hear dissertations on how the establishment is not really a source of truth, or the true establishment. I am really just calling to get an authoritative view on that if you are knowledgeable about it. Perhaps my question is misguided. WAYNE MORRIS: We can't help. I don't know if Caryn has heard of that group - (Emin Society. (Caryn hadn't heard of it either.) One other thing I wanted to touch on is what is the importance of spiritual healing to somebody who had undergone ritual abuse, and really have been spiritually abused. CARYN STARDANCER: My feeling is that all abuse impacts spiritually. The vast majority of survivors that I have talked with and know, feel that spiritual healing is one of the most important parts; however there are some survivors who feel they really don't want to deal with this at all, having had this type of abuse. But statistically most people feel that it is one of the most important parts of their healing although it may be one of the later stages. It really depends on the person. GAIL FISHER-TAYLOR: I would agree with that. It can be very frightening to deal with the spiritual abuse and I think that spirituality has to be interpreted in a very broad sense. A lot of survivors of ritual abuse have been abused in an organized religious context and are very afraid to get involved in that aspect of spirituality. Although there are many other ways they find spiritual healing possible - often outside of the context of organized religion, and are interpreting spirituality in a very broad and open sense. WAYNE MORRIS: I believe Alex is on the line. ALEX: i kind of wanted to go back to the caller who made the reference to Masonry. There is something I would like to clarify about that whole position. I think it is important to point out that Masonry as it is popularly understood here in North America and throughout most of Europe is not the Masonry that the previous gentleman was referring to. He was referring to a particular like Black Lodge type of Masonry called the P-2 in Italy and I understand that there is somewhat of a sinister Lodge in France. But the Masonry that is basically stretched throughout the rest of the world - Grand Lodge or Blue Lodge Masonry - has really nothing to do with mind control or cult activity or anything of that sort. So I think it is good to get that out there because a lot of people might get that confused and think that well maybe their Uncle or their Grandfather or even perhaps their Father was engaged in some sort of mind control practice which is complete and utter rubbish. WAYNE MORRIS: The reference to the P-2 Lodge, Propaganda Due Lodge in Italy is an illegal branch of the Masonic Lodge. ALEX: Hold on. This is the point I am trying to bring up though. Masonry as it is constituted in North America and throughout most of the world falls under the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge which is in England in the U.K. Now the Lodges in France and the Lodges in Italy have basically been blackballed by the Grand Lodge in England because of its nefarious activities. They are formal and separate organizations. It might be perhaps back in the 1750's that at one time they were all together under one roof, but for about the past 200 hundred years they have been separate organizations. And Masonry, like for instance the Masonic Temple down there on Yonge Street, you know the one I mean - that sort of Masonry has nothing to do with the type of Masonry that gets involved in all these political industries. WAYNE MORRIS: I am afraid I would have to disagree with you in the respect that we have heard allegations from across North America alleging that they have been abused in a ritual abuse context or sexually abused by high ranking Masons of the same Scottish Rite and the York Rite of the mainstream Masonry. Now that is not to say that all Masons are engaged in this type of activity - in fact I would think that the majority are not, and have no knowledge of it. But we have heard allegation after allegation of high ranking Masons in these organizations who are engaged in this type of activity. Thank you very much for your comments caller. I am afraid we are going to have wrap it up. We are actually over time in our panel discussion. I would like to thank both Caryn Stardancer and Gail Fisher-Taylor very much for participating in our panel discussion. <= we're not machines you know => +++ we're not going to fall over in rows +++ Dr. King - On The Beach - 1959 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aches-mc.org ************************************************************** MINDCONTROL-L Mind Control and Psyops Mailing List To unsubscribe or subscribe: send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the following text: "unsubscribe MINDCONTROL-L" or "subscribe MINDCONTROL-L". Post to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wes Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, list moderator
