-Caveat Lector- > > >How many more people will kill each other with guns just so you can feel > ideologically correct? 1000? 10,000? How many? > > And how many unarmed women will be raped so YOU can feel ideologically > correct? How many frail elders will be murdered in their beds? For that > matter, how many high school kids will die like the kids at Littleton > died, waiting in vain while four, count 'em, FOUR SWATs hid outside behind > armored trucks, waiting for the the perps to kill themselves and then > waiting two and a half hours MORE before they dared to poke their > cowardly pig snouts in the door? Those kids should NOT have been able to get guns. Then it is irrelevant that the police are useless. Gavin; First of all they were not kids. They were young men who had the wherewithal to construct their own bombs. How difficult do you think it would have been for them to get guns on the black market after your supposed gun ban? Not very long. By the way, since when has it become irrelevent that law enforcement, with all their weaponery and flak jackets, wait outside the school while the killers reap carnage. Would it still be irrevelent if it was your kids or friends who were being slaughtered? The police are not useless, they chose to cowardly cower outside instead of doing their job and trying to stop the killers and also give first aid to the injured. > > 911 is a joke. When trouble strikes, ready or not, we're on our own. Ready > is better. Agreed. > > >I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome of > Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the > concentration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of > poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social > disintegration > is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. > > "An unarmed people are slaves, or subject to slavery at any time." -- > Malcolm X So what's you point gun looney? Blacks have guns. Plenty of guns. Are they defending themselves from the government? From cops? Hell no. they are killing each other in droves. Same for hispanics, and Asians in certain areas. The immediate problem is access to guns. Not a Government too busy helping Wall Street rob the world. Gavin; As I said before, banning guns will do little if anything to decrease the gang bangers and drug dealers from killing each other. The vast majority of them already have criminal records and cannot obtain guns legally, but that doesn't stop them, and it will not stop them if there is a gun ban. > > >> I am telling you that your philosophy will end in violence. > > And I'm telling you that YOUR philosophy will end in slavery. And it is better to live as a slave, than to die as a gun nut. Slaves get free sooner or later.If you don't agree with my statement, then put your pistol where your mouth is. Show me how dedicated you really are to the 2nd A. When the ATF comes for your piece, tell them " over my dead body." Prove Darwin right. Gavin; Wrong again. It is better to die fighting for freedom than live as a slave. Slaves only gain their freedom by fighting for it or because others fought for it. Nurev, is everybody who owns a gun because they fear a despotic government, the reason the founding fathers gave us the 2nd Ammendment in the first place, all "gun nuts." The vast majority of the people in the gun culture are law abiding citizens who see a depraved leader and an out of control law enforecment doing what ever they want. You suck up the government's propaganda so well, I thought you had more sense than that. Are the ATF and FBI etc. gun nuts too, or are they okay because they work for the government. The ATF and FBI have toally discraced themselves in the last few years with there constant lies, witness intimidation, murders, cover-ups and wholsale cowardice. If you are so proud of them and obviously seem to think that they do a good job, why not join up, put your money where your mouth is, get some blood on your hands. But watch your back jack, because those boys will have you going through the door first every time. As for Darwin, I wouldn't put much credence in his hypothesis. He was the man who said he didn't see any problems with a bear turning into a whale, given enough time.(snicker)I suppose given enough time, hippo's will fly, and then we'll all be in the shit. > > >>I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see > that those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in > a country with free access to millions of guns. > > And any fool SHOULD be able to see what would becoume of us if we lived in > a country where only the government had guns. There are many countries where the population doesn't have access to weapons and they do very nicely. By golly ! Gavin; Different cultures. America is the worlds superpower and with the most relaxed gun laws as yet. They have to get our guns, they already have everybody elses. > > But I guess not. It's coming. Just a few more massacres. Bye bye Smith & Wesson. Joshua2 Gavin; Stop drooling over a few more massacres. As long as it's somebody else who gets murdered you and the worthless scum in Washington can keep on pushing their new gun laws. As long as it's somebody elses misery. Like I said befoe Nurev, join up, get your hands bloody, or do you prefer to sit on the sidelines and let others do the killing, to stop the killing?! Bye bye Smith and Wesson, hello a very lucrative black market and more killing as illegal gun dealing takes over from illegal drug dealing as the best way to make money for criminals. Your simplistic scenario's just do not hold up when you give the subject a little thought. Does anyone doubt that they are happy to hear of the killings? > > Look what Nurev writes later about the increasing number of people who > > might join his cause: "Oh yeah??? Wanna bet? This country has one, maybe > > two more massacres left before it becomes a groundswell". Does that not > > sound like someone who is looking forward to more such murders? That's a warning of inevitability. Not a desire for carnage. That was a pathetic attempt. You are so self centered that you ( pl ) think we are after you. The intent here is to stop the killing and you and the NRA and some bought politicians are in the way. But every massacre is a nail in the NRA's coffin. Every shot to death citizen, every accidentally killed child brings your time to an end. It's called change. It's called democracy.Live with it. Or not. Gavin; He's right on the money. We all see you are eager with anticipation at the coming war between gun owners and the government. As I have pointed out on numerous occasions, passing a total gun ban will not stop the killing, it will exacerbate it a 1000 fold. Whole States will refuse to abide by it. 95%+ politicians in America today are bought. On both sides of this issue. Do you really believe that all the mass shootings is the product of people constantly going insane. How convenient for Bill Clinton that these incidents greatly incites the sheople to support more and more gun laws. What a coincidence. Unfortunately I don't believe in recurring "coincidences" which keep benefiting Bill's agenda. Live with it or die, right? Sounds like your philosophy of less killing is clashing with your instinct to see the gun owners executed. Tut tut. > > > > On several occasions Nurev has threatened his critics with a future > > revolution of the people. He seems to enjoy fantasizing about a future > > revolution against the "capitalists" who he seems to fear will take over > > the government. I'm not threatening revolution. I am saying that the natural outcome of Capitalism is concentration of wealth. The natural outcome of the concen-tration of wealth is poverty for most people. The natural outcome of poverty is social disintegration. The natural outcome of social disintegration is dictatorship. And the natural outcome of dictatorship is revolution. I don't want ANY of these things to come about. But any fool can see that those situations would be infinitely more deadly if they occurred in a country with free access to millions of guns. (They haven't already?) Yet here he wants to take away > > their guns. What kind of sense does that make? Right! Like you gun loonies are really going to stop tanks with your 9mms and your shotguns. Who the hell do you think you are impressing? No one takes you clowns seriously except your own delusional selves. Waco was very well armed remember? The only thing that could have saved them was an outcry from all of us. Do you guys think there will be an outcry from the rest of your fellow citizens when we all decide through the political process that we no longer want guns in the general population AND YOU WON'T COMPLY? Get real. This society is too sick to have easy access to guns. Period. Gavin; Millions of armed citizens is a very large obstacle to overcome. Do you really see the ATF and FBI putting their heads in the crosshairs when the gloves come off and it's open season on government agencies? The military would have to be called in. But the situation would be far more complex than the simple scenario you seem to see Nurev. It is a totally different situation asking American soldiers to kill Americans for defending their 2nd Ammendment rights, even if the politicians have managed to manufacture enough "mass shootings" in order to ban all guns. Many of our military personnel despise Bill Clinton and see him as a totally self serving and worthless sack of shit that he is. Many would help people standing against his gun ban, either join them or supply them with more sophisticated weaponry. Many would ask why? Why does Bill Clinton, who has displayed a total disregard for the rights of Americans and lacks any credibility whatsoever, want to ban guns? Bill Clinton, who has repeatedly refused to aknowledge the terrible suffering by tens of thousands of Gulf War Vets afflicted with Chemical and biological poisoning, or to do something useful about it. When they start asking these and other questions your simplistic version becomes nonsense. It would be wholesale slaughter, either way you look at it. It would not be a simple case of the military running around and collecting the guns. The Branch Davidians could have opened fire any time they wanted on the ATF who pulled up in noisy cattle trucks in a virtually treeless terrain. They didn't because they were not looking for trouble. The ATF and other government scum were. They were looking to make a big splash in the papers just in time for the upcoming appropriations meeting who decide how much money to allocate the ATF. Time for a dog and pony show. There could well have been other nefarious agendas at work also. How long do you think the many millions of Americans who get their "news-bytes" from Channel 5 and 7 etc. are going to start changing their opinions the instant thousands of Americans start killing each other. Watch all that supposed support you keep talking about wither away. Not to mention the massive rift that there would be throughout America after such a catastrophic upheaval. What political process? A process that has become so bastardised and corrupted it bears little if any resemblance to America 100 years ago. A largely dumbed down and disenfranchised society purposely made that way by the string pullers. Keep em ignorant and pre-occupied with the idiot box. Many are waking up. Allowing them to take the guns is not going to make it any better. However, as I am sure you realize, a well armed citizenry would be > impossible to stop even if the opposition had help from outside forces > (as they probably would). This is wishful thinking. It bears no resemblance to reality. The US Government is the most powerful entity in all of history. Gavin; Run by Americans, for Americans. Not for the oligarchy who want to enslave us. I think enough of them will realize the ruse and the attempted gun confiscation will backfire badly. If this is > to lead to a revolution, as you seem to believe, why do you want the > people to be disarmed while the government (which you know is under the > control of the elite you seem to deplore) is so well armed? It's a question of priority. Revolution is theoretical. Gun violence is immediate. Gavin; As I said before. Gun violence will continue especially with the flourishing black market gun trade which will fill the vacuum. > > > Who the hell do you think you are impressing? No > > one > > takes you clowns seriously except your own delusional selves. > > So I am a clown and delusional? Please try to control yourself when > addressing me. I apologize. I am speaking to you as representative rather than you as Howard the individual. You ( all ) are not taken seriously by anyone but each other and the politicians who represent some of you. I say this not as much to put you down, as to make you understand that you don't have John Q. Citizen on you side and you are loosing more fence sitters every day. Today, that awful establishment twat Elizabeth Dole came out for restrictions on guns. She didn't do this for the hell of it. Her pollsters see enough people on the right changing their attitudes about the availability of guns. She is also setting a line of demarcation between her and Baby Bush. This will be the " hot button issue " to turn out the Republican vote. I hope she looses because I just can't stand her accent. But the point really is the direction of the gun issue in politics. The NRA line of no give has brought you gun nuts to this. The NRA doesn't care about you or rights. They are the political action arm of the US gun manufacturers and they use the Second Amendment and suckers like you to keep pushing their over saturation of their domestic market. You want to get yourself killed for the gun manufacturers? If so, your are a fine example of evolution in action. Gavin; That is right, of course the NRA have an agenda to perpetuate arms manufacture. Of course there are prostituted politicians on both sides of the issue. What's new? Do you want to be enslaved by a meglomaniacal rapist sociopath such as Bill Clinton or his replacement? I would only get myself killed defending myself or someone else form being killed or fighting for liberty. There you go again with your specious evolution analogy's. > > > Waco was > > very > > well armed remember? > > No, they were not. There is evidence that many of the guns were placed > in the building after the fire. And, even if they did have many guns, > half of the people there were women and children (and, of course, they > were in a flimsy easily torched wooden building). And where will your women and children be? Fort Knox? Gavin; What's your point? ATF/FBI burnt and shot those people to death. > > > The only thing that could have saved them was an > > outcry > > from all of us. Do you guys think there will be an outcry from the > > rest of > > your fellow citizens when we all decide through the political process > > that > > we no longer want guns in the general population AND YOU WON'T COMPLY? > > > > Get real. This society is too sick to have easy access to guns. > > Period. > > If this society is too sick to have easy access to guns then one must > ask the question: Why is it too sick now when 200 years ago the leaders > of our country thought the opposite? POPULATION!!!!!! Gavin; Population is the smallest part of the problem. An "education" system which is systematically producing worker drones who don''t have an original thought. A system which promotes the group above the individual. You must go along to get along. Conforming is the name of the game. The massive rise in the cost of living in the last 20 years especially. Most family's today both parents work and still live from paycheque to paycheque. Many families one or more parents is working two jobs and or going back to school. School loans, credit card debt, work work work to try and keep ahead of the massive inflation created by the oligarchy who run the Fedeal Reserve, the most powerful private organization in America. These are some of the reasons. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance�not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
