-Caveat Lector- http://www.accesswaco.com/auto/feed/news/local/1999/09/03/936404068.21703.0065.0446.html Film producer says flash-bangs may have started fire at Mount Carmel By MARK ENGLAND Tribune-Herald staff writer A film producer claims an evidence log put together by the Texas Department of Public Safety shows that flash-bangs were found near three spots where the fires that destroyed Mount Carmel are thought to have originated. Flash-bangs are concussion devices meant to startle and contain a small amount of pyrotechnics. Mike McNulty — apparently the only outsider to view the evidence stored for the upcoming civil lawsuit filed by surviving Davidians against the government — thinks the public is paying too much attention to the furor over military tear gas, which is an incendiary device, being used on bunkers located away from the rambling wooden structure that housed David Koresh and his followers. "I'm telling you, those two projectiles didn't start the fire," said McNulty, one of the producers of "Waco: Rules of Engagement." "Other devices may have. We should be talking about those." Earlier this year, McNulty was given access to the Davidian evidence held in Austin by Assistant United States Attorney Bill Johnston of Waco. McNulty said the flash-bangs were mislabeled as silencers or suppressors. Anyone looking at an inventory of the evidence wouldn't know any flash-bangs had been found inside Mount Carmel, he said. "We found six of these in the evidence chain," McNulty said. "Two of those were found outside the building. Four were found inside the building — three at the points of origin of the fire." His declaration is based on an evidence log put together by DPS detailing where each piece of evidence was found, McNulty said. Also, arson investigators chosen by the FBI determined that the fire that killed Koresh and 75 followers started simultaneously in three places. DPS officials declined to comment on McNulty's assertion since the evidence is now technically in the custody of U.S. District Judge Walter S. Smith Jr. of Waco. Smith ordered the U.S. Marshals Service to take custody of the evidence, although it has yet to be transferred. FBI spokesman Tron Brekke said no flash-bangs were used on the day of the Davidian fire, April 19, 1993. The Justice Department report on "the events at Waco" notes that flash-bangs were used periodically during the siege. Agents tossed flash-bangs toward Davidians who stepped outside Mount Camel on several occasions, according to the report. Brekke said he wouldn't be surprised to learn that flash-bangs were found inside Mount Carmel. "Fifty-something days before there had been an assault by the ATF, if you'll remember," Brekke said. "There are all kinds of possibilities ... I'm not surprised that they were found somewhere inside. No." Brekke said the FBI still believes the Davidians started the fire. Government bugs inside Mount Carmel picked up voices yelling, "Start the fire," and "The fire is lit," among other things. Surviving Davidians, though, claimed tanks rumbling into their residence knocked over lanterns. How flammable are flash-bangs? Tony Cooper, a University of Texas-Dallas professor and law enforcement consultant, said flash-bangs have the potential to start a fire. "They're called stun grenades," Cooper said. "They're designed to produce a shock wave, which is supposed to have an inhibiting effect against those it's used on. They're used to attack hijackers aboard aircrafts, for example. Anything of an explosive nature, if it comes in contact with materials with a propensity to go up in flames, can act as a kind of detonating agent." Sgt. Phil Hansen, who is with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department's SWAT team, however, balks at calling flash-bangs an explosive. "There is an ignition device in them," Hansen said. "One of the by-products is heat. It's high heat but for an extremely short duration. We're talking milliseconds. Because of that, there's a low probability of fire. Like anything else, though, it depends on your surroundings." Capt. Steve Smith of the Lexena, Kan. Police Department said flash-bangs have been known in certain circumstances to start fires. Smith, like Hansen, is on the Board of Directors of the National Tactical Officers Association, "There was an incident that happened in Kentucky a couple of years ago," Smith said. "There was a barricaded suspect. He had poured flammable liquid on the carpet. When law enforcement used diversionary devices, it started a fire. You don't have any control of what's on the floor. But, generally speaking, they don't cause fires." Smith thinks tear gas is more likely to start a fire than a flash-bang. "If I was going to put money on it, I'd bet on burning gas before I would a distraction device," Smith said. Justice Department officials confirmed earlier this week that two military tear gas canisters were fired just after 6 a.m. on April 19, 1993. Their target was a bunker near the compound. Officials claimed the canisters hit the bunker's roof, bounced off and landed in a field. They maintain none were fired at the Davidian's living quarters. Military tear gas canisters were used because the non-pyrotechnic tear gas canisters failed to penetrate the bunker, according to Justice Department officials. Hansen said he doesn't consider flash-bangs much of a fire threat because they don't smolder. "To me, a fire is not as great a consideration as much as placing them too close to a person," Hansen said. Flash-bangs have the capability of killing someone if discharged close enough, Cooper said. "To fire these things off in an area where there are women and children would be irresponsible," Cooper said. "If one didn't detonate and was picked up later by a child, it could cause death or very serious injury." Houston attorney Dick DeGuerin, who was Koresh's attorney, said he handed authorities a spent flash-bang given him by the Davidians after he visited Mount Carmel during the siege. Davidians also showed him a live flash-bang, which they kept, DeGuerin said. "I wasn't about to take that one out," DeGuerin said. "I was afraid I'd be shot." DeGuerin, like McNulty, thinks the presence of the flash-bangs inside Mount Carmel should be investigated. "I know they were throwing them throughout the standoff," DeGuerin said. "The FBI claimed it didn't throw any the last day. But I find it funny, given they were logged in at three spots where the fire supposedly started, that they had the wrong labels. I do think it's possible they were left behind by the ATF. But you should be able to check the inventory of what ATF went in there with and what they came back with. It bears looking into, I think." Mark England can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] or at 757-5744. -- ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. 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