-Caveat Lector- << Subj: [RuMills] Waco Survivor's Story: True or False? Date: 99-09-17 02:42:40 EDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Rumor Mill News Readers, The following article is extremely thought provoking. It is long but it really needs to be read. This is the link to the Wilcher Report about the mind control operation that was going on in the Davidian church. <A HREF="http://www.sightings.com/politics4/wilcher.htm">SIGHTINGS</A> While you are reading the following article, keep the following paragraphs from the Wilcher Report in mind. From the Wilcher Report: "What was actually propelled into the compound was a nerve reagent - a neuro toxin -- NERVE GAS -- a virulent poisonous substance, like curare -- which instantly paralyzed and rendered totally helpless and defenseless all of the 95 men, women, and children inside the compound -- except for those 9, later rescued, like David Thibideaux, who were on the 2nd or 3rd floor with their windows wide open on both sides, and who were thus spared the deadly effects of this tear gas/nerve gas combination. (RMNews Paul was killed with curare) For all the others, that could no longer coordinate their muscles in the effort required even just to get up, much less to flee to the life- sustaining fresh air outside, only a few feet away. #20) The other point to be made here is that, while the "wet" team did kill many of those inside the compound prior to setting the fires (by means of the"Willie Peter" canisters on delayed timing devices, discussed above), they apparently did NOT murder (at least, directly) ALL of the 86 men, women, and children who ultimately died in the tragedy -- meaning that many of those who died were left paralyzed by the nerve gas, unable to get up or free themselves from this disaster in progress, and were thus consigned to being consumed alive in the giant conflagration brought on by the white phosphorus. * * * * * Subj: Waco Survivor's Story: True or False? Date: 9/16/1999 5:11:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Carol A. Valentine) Note: My ISP is experiencing difficulties. Please disregard duplicates. My apologies. == Waco Survivor's Story(s)--True of False? The September 9, 1999 edition of Salon magazine carried a story written by Branch Davidian David Thibodeau, whom (we are told) survived the April 19, 1993 inferno at the Mt. Carmel Center in Waco. Among other things, David T. discusses that fateful day. http://www.salonmagazine.com/news/feature/1999/09/09/waco/index.html Can we rely on David Thibodeau's account of the events of April 19, 1993? Please read the following and come to your own conclusions. I see two major problems with Mr. Thibodeau's account(s): (a) important elements in his accounts keep changing, and (b) none of the accounts are credible. Some history: By the summer of 1995, the news of how the mothers an children died in the Mt. Carmel center had made the rounds in the Waco protest movement: The moms and kids had hidden from the CS in an old concrete records storage room that was being used as a pantry in 1993. Instead of protecting the moms and kids, the concrete room became their tomb. The story worried me from the beginning. Mothers are practical people. When the air is poisoned, the practical solution is to get *away* from it. But the concrete room was a catch basin for poisoned air. It was windowless. It had a doorway, but no door. Poisoned air entering the room from the doorway would have nowhere to escape. Why would the moms take their babies to a catch basin to *escape* the CS? I wanted to know more. So in July, 1995 I interviewed David Thibodeau on the telephone. I asked David T. whether he had seen the mothers and children on April 19. First he said no. Then I asked who told the mothers and children to go to the concrete room. He said he did not know. However, he confirmed that the mothers had gas masks and the children had no gas masks, so to protect the children, the mothers had buckets of water and cloths and with them; the mothers dunked the cloths into the buckets of water and covered the children's faces with wet cloths. But how could David Thibodeau know what was happening in the concrete room if he had not seen the mothers and kids that day? I asked him. Now he said that one of the mothers came out of the concrete room and told him what they were doing. I asked which mother came out: He said he did not remember which mother. It is curious. First David Thibodeau had not seen any of the mothers, then he had, but couldn't remember which. How likely is it that? There were a limited number of mothers--friends and co religionists with whom he had lived for years. One of the mothers inside that room was Michelle Jones, David Koresh's sister, the woman David Thibodeau says was his wife. With Michelle were her three children--two-year-old twin girls, and five-year-old Serenity Sea Jones. Since he remembered the incident, and given personal interest, we might expect that David would remember which mother had spoken to him. And what of the buckets and gas masks that David Thibodeau said the mothers were using? The Texas Ranger in charge of the collecting evidence in the concrete room, Sgt. Raymond Coffman, did not report finding any buckets or gas masks when he testified at the 1994 San Antonio trial of the Branch Davidians. Nor do the Autopsy Reports indicate any buckets or gas masks were found in the concrete room near the bodies, and they do not mention any traces of gas masks on or near the bodies. http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/page/d_bcc.html [Check hyphen in "Public-Action" when you place URL in window.] Some time after my telephone interview, I came across a copy of an October 14, 1994, article "Marked for Death," published in the Jerusalem Post. Reporter Haim Shapiro interviewed David Thibodeau who was visiting Israel at the time. http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/doc/d_doc15.html According to the Jerusalem Post, when David Thibodeau heard the CS attack begin, he donned his gas mask. Later a tank crashed through the front doors, and, according to Shapiro: "He tried to reach the children--whom he believes were in a *** buried bus *** [emphasis added] which the group had prepared as a shelter--but with stairways wrecked and sheets of flame all around him, it was impossible," says the Jerusalem Post article. He staggered out the door and looked back to see Mt. Carmel totally ablaze. "I knew that my friends were dying and I only hoped the kids were safe in the bus," David Thibodeau told the Jerusalem Post. Here is a diagram of the Mt. Carmel Center. Note in particular the locations of the buried school bus and the concrete room (called "cinder block" in this diagram). Very different places. http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/war/fig/w_fig10.html Now let's look at the September 9, 1999 Salon Magazine story. These are David Thibodeau's words: >It remains hard for me to clearly remember what happened after the tanks >made their move. Walls collapsed, the building shook, gas billowed in and >the air was full of terrible sounds: the hiss of gas, the shattering of >windows, the bang of exploding rockets, the raw squeal of tank tracks. >There were screams of children and the gasps and sobs of those who could >not protect themselves from the noxious CS. But remember that according to David Thibodeau's earlier statements, the children were in the concrete room (or the buried school bus). How could he hear their screams and gasps and sobs since he was not there? Neither the concrete room nor the buried school bus would pass sounds from the inside, such as "screams" and "gasps" and "sobs," to the outside, particularly over the noise of >the hiss of gas, the shattering of >windows, the bang of exploding rockets, the raw squeal > of tank tracks. Says David Thibodeau, >This continued for hours. Let us look at what we are being asked to believe. That on April 19, the day of the CS and tank attack, the Branch Davidian mothers and children were herded into a catch-basin for noxious air, and abandoned to their own devices. Despite hearing their screams and gasps, the men, including David Thibodeau, whose own wife and step-children were there, never checked in on them, even though their agony went on for "hours." And apparently, to David T.'s knowledge, none of the other Davidian men checked on the mothers and children either. And we are asked to assume that inside the concrete room the moms (who had gas masks) were holding onto the children (who didn't have gas masks), covering the kids' faces with wet cloths while the kids spluttered and gagged and writhed in their death throes, but the mothers' nerves never snapped. The moms didn't dream of getting up and running out of the gas chamber with their babies. The story is not credible. In order to believe that story, we would have to believe the Davidians -both the menfolk and the mothers--were callous, monstrous people, and I see no reason to believe that. David Thibodeau again: >Inside Mount Carmel, the notion of leaving seemed insane; with tanks >smashing through your walls and rockets smashing through the windows, our >very human reaction was not to walk out but to find a safe corner and pray. Well, all right. If the concrete room was so safe, why wasn't David T. there too? >As the tanks rolled in and began smashing holes in the building and >spraying gas into the building, the FBI loudspeaker blared, "This is not an >assault! This is not an assault!" > >Around noon I heard someone yell, "Fire!" I thought first of the women and >children, whom I had been separated from. David Thibodeau became "separated" from the mothers and children? That implies he was with them at one point that morning, but he told me he had not seen them (except for the one mother whose identity he couldn't remember). On the other hand, David T. did not tell the Jerusalem Post about being "separated" from the mothers and kids--he just thought they were in the buried bus. David Thibodeau escaped the CS and the fire, and did so very well. Neither he nor any other of the "fire survivors" needed treatment for smoke or CS inhalation, yet *** all the moms and kids died. *** I remember the Branch Davidian men as protective of the women and children. Recall Wayne Martin's words during his 911 call on February 28, 1993: "We have women and children in here. Tell them to call it off!" Or David Koresh's words at the front door on that same day: "Now hold on! We have women and children in here!" But we are asked to believe that on April 19, the Branch Davidian character suddenly changed, that the Davidian men became utterly indifferent to the fate of the women and children and ran like cur dogs to protect their own hide . . . After a catastrophic event in which family members and loved ones die, survivors are often tortured by regrets and remorse. They often ask questions based on both intelligence and emotion, questions like: "What could I have done differently?" or "Why didn't I check in on them?" or "Why didn't I keep them with me?" and "Why did they die, and why did I live?" But six and one half years after the event, not one of the fire survivors has publicly made such an utterance and re-examined a most callous and uncaring action: sending the moms and kids to a dead air cul-de-sac on the day of the CS attack, never once checking on them, running out of the burning building themselves . . . and letting the mothers and children die. The Autopsy reports present even further problems with David Thibodeau's account(s). Surely the Davidian survivors, their families, and their lawyers have looked at the Autopsy Reports, yet they never have raised one question about the anomalies in those reports. For example, whose child was Mt. Carmel Doe 51A? The skull of this two year old was found in the concrete room, but it has not been identified. Is it likely that one of the Davidian mothers had a two year old, and no one noticed? Hardly. What about Doe 65 (remains of a two-to-four year old), Doe 31DE (remains of a 11-14 year old) ,and Doe 59 (remains of 14-19 year old Caucasian girl.) If these were Davidians, why have they not been identified? And if those people were not Davidians, who were they, and how did their bodies come to rest in the concrete room? And why are the Davidian survivors, their families, and their lawyers not talking about the bodies that are entirely MISSING? Where on earth could those bodies be? For more information, see http://www.Public Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/page/d_id2.html And why have there been no comments or questions from Davidian survivors, their families, or their lawyers about the mutilation, beheading, and selective burning of bodies in the concrete room? http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/page/d_analys.html Look at the quadruply amputated and beheaded body of John McBean http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/32/32_pix.html or the sawn off arm of Mary Jean Borst. http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/45/45_pix.html In Western culture, defilement of human remains is one of the most heinous acts one can perform. This is particularly true if you are a Christian and believe the body is the vessel of the soul, to be resurrected on the Last Day and rejoined with the soul to live in Everlasting Glory with God. But not one of the survivors talks about this defilement. Instead, we hear about how the FBI agents pulled their pants down and mooned the Davidians while they were driving the tanks around . . . Surely even the most ardent atheist deplores the defilement of human remains. But the Branch Davidians are quiet. Yes. There is something very wrong with the survivors' accounts of what happened on April 19, 1993, and their reactions to those events. Without the survivors's stories, our attention would be focused on the evidence, and the evidence SCREAMS that the mothers and children were murdered with malice aforethought. The evidence SHOUTS that their bodies were laundered--mutilated, decapitated, blown apart, and selectively burned--to disguise the time, cause, circumstances, and even the identities of the dead. But the survivors stories divert or attention from the evidence. We are so horrified by events that as decent, caring people, we can only offer solace. We would never dream of questioning their word. We never notice the survivors' stories and the government's story are one and the same: The US was only trying to get the Davidians to come out that day, when, ooops!, the mothers and children got dead. Without the survivors' stories, no one would believe the government's tale. The unbelievable stories of the Waco "fire survivors" are essential elements in the cover-up the Waco Holocaust. === Carol A. Valentine President, Public Action, Inc. Copyright, September, 1999 May be reproduced for non-commercial purposes. Have you seen the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum? See what they did to the mothers and children-- http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter "In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell === Carol A. Valentine President, Public Action, Inc. Have you seen the Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum? See what they did to the mothers and children-- http://www.Public-Action.com/SkyWriter "In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. 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