-Caveat Lector- <A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/">
</A> -Cui Bono?-
>From: Eagle 1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>You know... Mikus...
>You've stated in your comment, whether you realize it or not, exactly
>what the Bible is all about... that is FAITH. If *you* cannot define
>faith, then there is no way you will ever understand God or the Bible.
>As
>a Christian, "We walk by faith, not by sight"... Since you obviously
>cannot understand that concept, there is no way anyone should ever expect
>you to believe in God or the Bible.
First of all, up until about a year ago, I was just like you. I defended my
views on religion as vehemently as you are doing now. Anything said that
was incompatible with my methods and ideals was something I either attacked,
or ran from. I have a VERY good idea of what FAITH means. You have no
possible reference point to gauge my abilities to rely on faith. Your
Faith, and my Faith are obviously 2 different breeds. I opened my
consciousness to other possibilities, and now place my FAITH in my own
ability to live my life as I see fit, and not by some idealist who's been
dead for 2000 years (or so). The ideals are great, the concepts are
beautiful, but the actual powers behind it may just be smoke and mirrors.
>This is a no win situation... You attack the messenger, rather than the
>message, because you don't have enough knowlege of the subject of the
>Bible
>or God to attack either, substantially, so you attack me...
>So I say, OH WELL... and ho hum...
Actually, it would be great if everyone treated everyone else as the Bible
recommends, and there was no hunger, war, or killing in this world. The
message is sound, the ideals are so similar to my ideals and morals as to be
nearly impossible to differentiate. I'm not attacking your belief either.
I'm just exposing my own opinion about how I currently believe, as opposed
to what I believed in last year at this time. I'm not attacking you, but
just trying to have a civilized debate. You may be right afterall, and I'm
possibly moving down the "Wrong" path, as you would see it. Let me learn
that for myself if it is true. But, you seem incapable of considering the
other side of the equation as I have, and that is highly disruptive in
trying to hold a civil discussion. Try not to feel so insulted, because it
is not, and has not been you I have been attacking. Actually, I have not
been attacking anyone yet, ... YET.
>You cannot prove or disprove many things in this world. For example, you
>cannot see gravity, but you know it exists. You may not understand it's
>principles, but you are being held to the ground by it's effects... there
>is something that there is no physical evidence for, yet you KNOW it
>exists. You put faith in that gravity to hold you to the ground so you
>don't
>go floating off into space somewhere, don't you? Of course you do. It
>makes no difference whether you understand the dynamics of it or not. You
>just know that you are not floating in space because of it. You have
>exercised faith in something... even if it is gravity.
I won't get into gravity, black holes, gravitons, or string theory, because
it is too far off subject, but gravity has physical, and accurately
measurable effects that can be used to PROVE its' reality.
>Why say the Bible is incredible? It's incredible only if you choose it to
>be. And by your comments and several others' comments, you've simply and
>easily chosen the "route of least resistance"; and *that* is the way of
>the
>world.
Actually, I think I was on an easier road when I was choosing to believe,
and to not question my own beliefs. I now make my decisions based on what
is best for my LIFE, not how someone else wants me to live it. It is
actually a bit more difficult to take responsibility for EVERYTHING I do,
and not be able to place part of my life on remote control. I don't expect
it to make much sense to you, and I guess it would be worthless to even try
to reword it, because it isn't the words that explain it.
>There is no way you will ever understand anything spiritual until
>you are willing to put faith in that which you cannot physically see.
I cannot see my own consciousness, yet it exists, since I am here trying to
have a reasonable discussion with someone I've never met. I will admit that
I never really did pay much attention in Sunday School for 6 years, nor did
I in Comfirmation classes, nor at any of the multitudes of weddings I've
been best man or usher at. I am also not the god parent of at least 3
children. The promises I've made to these PEOPLE still stand, regardless of
my own internally held opinions.
>Therefore, there is no argument on the subject of the Bible or God, as far
>as I'm concerned. The fact of the matter is that you are going to believe
>what you will and I will believe what I will.
The first thing that has made any sense yet. I am not trying to change your
belief system. I only jumped in to offer my opinion, and had it mauled in
the process.
> Personally, I've had too
>many things in my life happen that have shown me, without a shadow of a
>doubt, that the Bible is real and that God is very real.
I could become real cynical if I were to comment here, so I'll hold my
tongue.
>It's really no big deal to me if you don't understand. Sorry you feel you
>have to have "PROOF"... so be it... OK... So what...???
Actually, I don't require much right now, but what amazes me is the complete
LACK of any sort of proof (in a scientific term). Right now, I believe that
when I die, I will not go anywhere lese, nor will my consciouness continue
in some other form, but I will just cease to exist. It's not a scary thing,
just takes a bit of getting used to. It is on that basis that I plan to
live the rest of this precious life I have left, and not concern myself with
what may or may not be true after this life ends. That's why I say let the
judgement occur if and when it will occur, and not before. I trust that if
there is an afterlife, I will be judged on how well I lived my life
according to my own personal belief system, and not some universal set of
rules. That's too much like a coercive political system for me to believe
in.
>In the words of a famous athiest, Don Henley... "Get over it".
>
>>eagle 1
Actually, I already have...
P.S. - Thanks Dave for sticking your head in. But I think we can still
resolve this peacefully. We will do ourselves no good to fight amongst our
neighbors, while we have mutual concerns in other areas.Please keep the
stupid proselytization off the list.
Dave Said:
It is very nice and special that your bible-belief keeps you safe and warm.
MOST OF THE WORLD holds different beliefs, hence the "heathens" have been
systematically exploited and butchered from time to time by those of your
Xian faith.
Hypocrisy in the Nth degree.
CAN IT, OK? (it IS, I belive - OFF TOPIC.)
If you insist on making it topical, hold onto your holy Xian ass, cuz it's
gonna get flamed mightily.
thanks.
Dave Hartley
http://www.Asheville-Computer.com/dave
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