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THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST
brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL]
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Pesachim 064: Questions about the Korban Pesach
Ben Berlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked:
I often find that there are some ideas or concepts that I have questions
about without an outlet to ask. For instance, I truly cannot fathom the
way the Pesach was actually done.
(a) On a practical level, how did they get three groups? How many in each
group? I have been in Machaneh Yehuday or on Kikar Shabat on Erev Shabbos
or Erev Sukkos, and I cannot imagine all that activity on a much more
massive scale in three groups. And then the third group did not even finish
Hallel? What is missing here?
(b) There was enough blood that it was overflowing up to the knees? Did it
not smell? Our Pesach smells great. All kinds of fantastic food. This
seems like it would smell of blood, death, and excrement on a level of
600,000 animals.
(c) Also how big was a Pesach animal. How many Kilo or lbs? How many
people could eat from it?
These are the practical kinds of questions I tend to have and would relish
the concept of an e-mail chanvrusah where I could learn at my own pace,
write the questions, and have them answered at the pace of someone else who
is also doing the Daf. I cannot afford the time to go out and read all the
Rishonim and Achronim or even all the publications your organization puts out.
Any suggestions.
Thank you
Ben Berlin Norwalk, CT
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The Kollel replies:
Ben,
We'll be glad to try to be your partner in your growth in Torah-study if we
can. That's why we are here.
(a) It seems to have worked with first-come first-served. The Kohanim
would close the gates when the Azarah filled to capacity - or when they
decided to "close" the group based on their calculations of how many to allow.
(b) The blood reached the *ankles* of the Kohanim, not their knees (see
Background to the Daf). All meat coming from a slaughterhouse follows a
similar process. After washing and roasting, it tastes just fine. (By the
way, the Pesach was eaten anywhere in Yerushalayim).
The Azarah was cleaned with the aqueduct that passed through it.
(c) The Pesach was a goat or a sheep less than a year old. Even if it was
lean, I am sure it provided a k'Zayis for a dozen or more people.
Best wishes,
M. Kornfeld
-------
I include below a copy of what the Kollel wrote previously on this topic.
Be well
P. Silverman
===============
Pesachim 064b: Fitting 1,200,000 Korban Pesachs in the Azarah
Dov Linzer asked:
Question: The mishna says that the pesach was done in 3 groups, in the Azarah.
The Azara without qualification usually means Ezrat Yisrael. T
his is also implicit in the comments of the Yachin uBoaz and the RSH"SH on
the mishna. The Ezrat Yisrael was 11 amot by 135 amot, roughly 20 ft by
200 feet, or 4,000 square feet. Assuming (very cramped) that a person
takes up 1 square foot, that is room only for 4,000 people at a time
(ignoring the space for the sheep and goats).
So it seems that 1. the story on 64b about 1,200,000 pesachs must be an
exageration, but, more importantly 2.even with a smaller population, how
was there enough room?
Dov Linzer,
--------------------------------
The Kollel replies:
I passed your question on to Rabbi Yehudah Landy who responded as follows:
"It is certainly permitted for a Yisrael to enter into the Ezras Kohanim,
and even between the Ulam and the Mizbe'ach when there is a need to do so,
as the Mishnah says in Kelim at the end of the first Perek. However, this
will not answer your question, because it still does not give sufficient
room for such a large number of people, for the entire azrah is 187 X 135
Amos, in which the Beis ha'Mikdash takes up 100 X 70 (or actually a little
bit more than that), leaving only approximately 24,500 sq. Amos, besides
the Lishkos and the area of the Mizbe'ach and other items. All of Israel
brought their Korbanos Pesach with them, and every animal must certainly
require more than one squared Amah, and thus your question remains.
"I heard from Rabbi Zalman Koren, the foremost expert in our generation on
all matters of the Mikdash, that your question has been addressed by a
gentile scholar by the name of Hoyt who was an engineer and who wrote a
scholarly book on the topic ("More Places for People," Charles K. Hoyt,
1983, McGraw-Hill, New York).
"In order to answer your question, [(1) it must be that the Gemara is
indeed making an exaggeration, as you suggested, or (2) a miracle occurred
so that a large amount of animals could be contained within a small amount
of space, as we find in Gitin (57a) and in Avos (5:5). (3)] Hoyt suggests
-- and Rav Koren agrees that this is a possibility -- that the "Azarah"
mentioned here includes the area north of the Azarah on Har ha'Bayis. The
members of each group would enter the Azarah from the south and exit to the
north and wait there."
(There are a number of comments to make on this approach, but such
discussion is beyond the scope of this forum.)
Best wishes, and thanks for the question,
Mordecai
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