x-mailing-list: daf-disc...@shemayisrael.com
(Please include header and footer when redistributing this material.)
_________________________________________________________________
THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST
brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
d...@dafyomi.co.il
[REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL]
________________________________________________________________
Re: Kesuvos 030: Ha'Kol bi'Yedei Shamayim
Moshe Tarko asked:
>>(a) It seems to be the accepted understanding that Hashem does everything
in this world. You know: "Hakol b'eday Shamayim ..." People are part of
"everything" too. If Mr. X did something to you it's really from Hashem
etc. etc.
What is the pshat and idea behind this ma'amar? If any punishment is from
Hashem, why in Shmonah Esreh do we say Melech Ozer ... from who? Magen from
what?
(b) When Hashem gave David Hamelech (Shmuel II 24:14) a choice of
punishments, David chose to avoid anything coming from humans since it
would be "extra bad". Shouldn't all choices come out the same "quantity of
badness"?
(c) How could Shmuel Hanavi (Shmuel I 16:2) tell Hashem that he won't go
and do something because Shaul will kill him - when Hashem himself told him
to go. And Hashem says, okay don't tell Shaul why you're going?!
(d) And let's not forget the Rambam who in chap. 8 of Shemonah Perekim who
says that Hashem does NOT say which woman goes to which man even though the
accepted idea is 40 days before person is created (Sotah 2b)...what are the
different shitas?
(e) Also it seems from these and other statements in tanach that Hashem
does not know the future. Is there anything wrong with saying such a thing?
Why is that considered to be attributing a lack of knowledge to Hashem? If
the future does not exist then there is nothing to know! (I told this to
Rav Shlomo Fisher shlit'a and he was vehemently against the idea. Even
after I showed him an achron [the Shlah Ha'kodesh] who agrees with me, he
couldn't accept it.<<
The Kollel replied:
>>1) Rabbi Avraham, the son of the Vilna Gaon, explains the difference
between Melech Ozer and Magen as follows.
There are different ways that a person can have Bitachon in Hashem. One way
is to follow a plan of Hishtadlut and then trust that Hashem will help. A
person might go into business and have Bitachon that Hashem will help him.
This is Ozer :- Hashem helps a person who makes Hishtadlut and he succeeds.
A higher level is when it might be necessary to do something which seems to
be totally illogical, but there is no other choice because this is Kidush
Hashem. This was shown to us by Avraham Avinu who broke the idols and went
against the whole of the world, to proclaim to everyone that Hashem is the
Creator and the Master of the world. Because Avraham possessed such a high
madreiga of bitachon, Hashem in return protected him in a supernatural way.
This is why Hashem came to Avraham in a vision (Bereshit 15:1) and said to
him
" Do not fear Avraham, I am your Magen".
Since Avraham did such a great Kidush Hashem, without paying any attention
to physical risks, Hashem promised him that He would save him from all
dangers and that absolutely no harm would befall him.
Rav Avraham ben HaGra writes that this is the reason we say Magen Avraham
immediately after "uMagen", because Avraham Avinu reached the highest
possible level of Bitachon.
2) David HaMelech said that it is always better to fall into the Hands of
Hashem. Hashem is merciful amd does not always give a person as bad a
punishment as he deserves. Chazal tell us that in the end this is what
happened. Instead of suffering from 3 years of plague it became only 3
months, and then Hashem waived the punishment to 3 days and then to 36
hours. It is only Hashem who is so compassionate.
3) The Chovot Halevavot (Gate of Bitachon chapter 4) writes that we see
from the behavior of Shmuel, which was considered by Hashem as
praiseworthy, just how important it is that a person should be careful
about not putting himself in danger, and thereby watching over the most
important gift that he has received from Hashem; namely life itself.
Commiting suicide is the worst form of murder, because he has despised the
great gift of his own body, and abandons the task that Hashem gave him in
life.
Therefore, when Shmuel was hesitant about putting himself in danger, this
was a proof of how much he valued his own life. The fact that Hashem
suggested the 'trick' show that He was happy with Shmuel's care for himself
and his value of life.<<
Moshe Tarko asked:
>>Regarding the points you made:
1) Ozer might be answered that way but Moshia ... to save you... that is
not an appropriate wording for only Hashems actions and no other
'independent" entities. Certainly Magen is not an appropriate word for what
you are advocating: Magen means that someone or something is working
against you. Hashem will protect you from him/it. As you yourself said
there were risks [from who?] and Hashem protects you.
2) This says what I am advocating and is not an answer/counter. Man has
his own power ... G-d can only be merciful if you give him the reins. Do
you really want to say that? Also, we see that this is not the reality
either cause Hashem has saved people in many situations who were "in the
hands of man" [think Holocaust]. Also Etzem that Hashem asked shows that
there is a difference. BTW I thought that David Hamelech was going to be
self contradicting since he says not to trust man but if he chooses he will
be trusting/relying on man. That was a question/problem that I had. But
there seems to be a shita that I read about subsequently that asks my
question and answers that David Hamelech said "I don't know, You Hashem
choose for me".
3) What kind of danger can there be if Hashem runs everything, does
everything and he tells you to go do something that He says he wants you to
do for him? That could be called suicide? Aderabba, the trick shows that
"yes there is a problem. Shaul has independent ability of action and might
kill you. Let's get around that"!
The Meshech Chachma says that Hashem told Moshe to go down to save the Jews
and added "everyone who wanted to kill you in Mitzrayim is 'out of the
picture' now". The MC says: If Hashem would not of assured Moshe of that,
he would not have to listen to Hashem and endanger himself. He could get
killed even while working for the entity that does everything?!
The shlah hakodesh says that Hashem does not know the future or something
like that. I did not write down the Marei Makom, but I showed it to Rav
Fisher Shli"ta (we were standing in the back of the GR"A shul) who said
that he didn't care who said it ... he said that it was not correct. Come
to think of it I think Crescas says something like that too. A number of
years earlier I tried the same thing with Rav Fisher in his name which Rav
Fisher did not accept.<<
The Kollel replied:
>>Reb Moshe, thank you for your very interesting comments to which I will
attempt to reply.
1) The difference between "Magen" and "Moshi'a" is that Magen is a shield
which prevents any harm from touching the person protected by it, while
Moshi'a refers to someone who got into danger but was saved from the danger.
No one was able to do any harm to Avraham Avinu. It was as if he was
protected by a shield which prevented the arrows from even reaching him.
When Avraham shattered the idols, everyone in the world wanted to kill him
but nobody was able to touch him. Nimrod threw him into the furnace but
nothing happened to him because Hashem shielded him from the flames, rather
than simply pulling him out of the furnace.
2) Possibly the source you are referring to is Shoftim 10:15, "Bnei Yisrael
said to Hashem, 'We have sinned, do to us what is good in Your Eyes, but
please save us today.'"
3) There is really no difference between doing a Mitzvah of the Torah and
doing something which Hashem told you personally to do. If we believe in
the Torah, then performing any Mitzvah is as if we have been told
personally by Hashem to do the Mitzvah. Therefore, if one climbs up a high
ladder in order to send away the mother bird before taking the eggs, we
should have thought that no harm can come to him because he is doing a
Mitzvah. Nevertheless, the Gemara tells in Kidushin 39b tells us that if
the ladder is shaky, one should not take the risk of climbing up even
though one is doing a Mitzvah. This is because even though there is a
principle that people going to do a Mitzvah do not come to any harm, when
there is a significant danger involved we do not rely on this principle. We
are not allowed to rely on miracles. This is stated in the Gemara in
Shabbos 32a, that a person should never stand in a dangerous place and say
that a miracle will happen to him. Perhaps a miracle will not happen to
him, and even if a miracle does happen, he will have his merits reduced as
a result of this.
The Meshech Chochmah which you cite is a very good example of this. We see
from this that Hashem does not tell people to enter dangerous situations
and rely on a miracle to save them. Hashem does not tell people to rely on
a miracle.
I personally find it very hard to believe that the Shelah ha'Kodesh says
that Hashem does not know the future. We see all the time that Hashem told
the Tzadikim what is going to happen. He told Moshe Rabeinu that He is
going to take Bnei Yisrael out of Egypt and bring them to Eretz Yisrael.
Hashem told the Prophets what is going to happen in the future.
Reb Moshe, once again many thanks for your important ideas.<<
---
The Kollel adds:
I looked up the Shelah ha'Kadosh. There is a section where he discusses
what the Rambam writes at the end of chapter 5 of Hilchos Teshuvah about
the dilemma between the concept of free choice and Hashem's knowledge of
the future, and the Ra'avad there. This is in part I, Toldos Adam, Beis
ha'Bechirah. I did not see there that the Shelah says that Hashem does not
know the future. In fact, he cites Rashi (Devarim 34:1-3) who describes how
Hashem showed to Moshe Rabeinu the different generations that would live in
Eretz Yisrael and their activities.
However, the Shelah ha'Kadosh also cites the Ramban (Devarim 31:21) who
appears to make a distinction between Hashem's knowledge of the present,
which is a "Yediyah b'Po'el," and His knowledge of the future, which is a
"Yediyah b'Ko'ach." The Shelah comments at length about this.
Another important source on this Sugya is, of course, the Mishnah in Pirkei
Avos 3:15, "All is foreseen, but freedom of choice is given."
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
>>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><<<
The *D*AFYOMI *A*DVANCEMENT *F*ORUM, brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf
Write to us at d...@dafyomi.co.il or visit us at http://www.dafyomi.co.il
Tel/Fax(US): 646-820-3315; Fax(Isr): (02) 591-6024; Tel(Isr): (02) 651-5004
_______________________________________________
Daf-discuss mailing list
Daf-discuss@shemayisrael.co.il
http://mail.shemayisrael.co.il/mailman/listinfo/daf-discuss_shemayisrael.co.il
