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THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST
brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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[REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL]
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GENERAL: Rebbi Akiva
Chaim asks:
B"H
Shalom Rabbi, Shavua Tov!
Questions:
(1)When did Rabbi Akiva begin to study Torah?
(1.a)At the age of 40?
- Nedarim 41a. After he married Rachel, went to study 12 years Torah guided
by Rabbi Elie'zer and Rabbi Yehoshu'a.
- Midrash ha'Gadol 4:13 .Rachel took him to see how people would laugh at
the donkey...in the market, after that he went to study.
- Avot d'Rabbi Natan Perek 6 we find again that *Rabbi* A'kiva *returned*
to study Torah(Chazar li'Lmod Torah). He was called Rabbi.
Which was the correct order of events?
(1.b)Before the age of 40?
- Tosafot to Ketuvot 62b, Rabbeinu Tam said: "He was a shomer Mizvot". So
he studied Torah!
(2.a) How old was Rachel when she married Rabbi A'kiva?
(2.b) Did she has children from him?
(3) Who was Rabbi A'kiva's first wife?
(4) How many children did Rabbi A'kiva has?
(4.a) It's known that one of Rabbi Akiva's children went to study with him.
Did he also became a great sage?
(5) Gittin 55b. Bar Kamtza was humillated at the party. How can we
understand that Rabbis (of that time!), were spectators of such an event,
and did not say anything?
Best Wishes!
Chaim, from Argentina.
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The Kollel replies:
Chaim, it is wonderful to hear from you again!
1a) There are a few sources that state that Rebbi Akiva was 40 when he
started learning.
A. The Sifri on Devarim 34:7, where the Torah tells us that Moshe Rabeinu
was 120 when he died, adds that another sage who lived to the age of 120
was Rebbi Akiva. He was a shepherd for 40 years and then learned Torah for
40 years, and afterwards led the Jewish people for 40 years. We learn from
this that he was 40 when he started learning Torah. Avos d'Rebbi Nasan that
you cited also states that he was 40 when he started learning.
B. In addition, the Midrash ha'Gadol also says this. The Midrash ha'Gadol
says that Rebbi Akiva was 40 and had not learned anything. When he married
the daughter of Kalba Savu'a, she told him to go and learn Torah in
Jerusalem. He replied, "How can I go and start learning at the age of 40?"
She told him the parable about the donkeys. That was how he started
learning.
C. I suggest that when Avos d'Rebbi Nasan states it means that after Rebbi
Akiva made his intial unsuccesful attempt to learn Torah, he returned to
learn Torah after he saw the water wearing down the stone, it is clear from
Avos d'Rebbi Nasan that Rebbi Akiva did not even know Alef Beis before he
"returned to learn Torah." Then, Rebbi Akiva learned for 12 + 12 years
under Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi Yehoshua.
1b) When Rabeinu Tam says that Rebbi Akiva was Shomer Mitzvos, he does not
necessarily mean that Rebbi Akiva had already learned Torah. In those days,
Jews who had not studied Torah also kept the Mitzvos, as the vast majority
of the Jewish people observed the Mitzvos. They saw how the Chachamim
behaved and lived how they did.
2a) I do not know how old she was, so I will skip this question.
2b) According to Tosfos in Shabbos 150a (DH v'Rebbi) she did have children
from him. Firstly, we must cite the Gemara in Shevuos 6a which tells us
that Yehoshua, the son of Rebbi Akiva, asked a question in Halachah from
his father. Rashi writes that this is the famous Rebbi Yehoshua ben
Karchah. "Karchah" means "bald" and he was called by that name because his
father Rebbi Akiva was bald. Tosfos in Shabbos 150a disagrees with Rashi
and maintains that Rebbi Yehoshua ben Karchah was not the Yehoshua
mentioned by the Gemara in Shevous who was the son of Rebbi Akiva. One of
the proofs of Tosfos against Rashi is as follows. The Gemara in Megilah 28a
states that Rebbi (who composed the Mishnah) asked Rebbi Yehoshua ben
Karchah how he had merited such a long life. Rebbi asked Rebbi Yehoshua to
bless him. Rebbi Yehoshua blessed him that he should reach half of his own
age. Tosfos proves from this that Rebbi Yehoshua could not be the son of
Rebbi Akiva because since he was 40 when he married Rachel this would not
be consistent with the dates to say that there was such a big age
difference between Rebbi Yehoshua and Rebbi. What is apparent from Tosfos
is that it is not possible that Rebbi Akiva had other wives, for otherwise
Tosfos could have said that Rebbi Yehoshua ben Karchah was the son of Rebbi
Akiva from another wife.
Actually, there is an explicit Gemara that Rachel had children from Rebbi
Akiva. The Gemara in Kesuvos 63a tells us that the daughter of Rebbi Akiva
married Ben Azai and behaved the same way towards him as her mother had
behaved towards Rebbi Akiva, namely that she allowed him to go away and
learn, as people say that a daughter takes after her mother. We see that
Rebbi Akiva had a daughter from Rachel who married Ben Azai.
There are still questions left to answer but I will close here for the
moment.
Kol Tuv,
Dovid Bloom
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