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THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST

brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim

Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld

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[REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL]

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GENERAL: Asarah Harugei Malchus

chaim asks:

The chochomim translated the torah for king talmai into yevonis. did this
eventually lead up to the event of the asarah harugei hamalchus, seeing as
he read the translated torah? and if he decread that they should be killed
why didnt it happen all at once? we know that they were killed at different
times for different reasons?!

chaim,

----------------------------------------------

The Kollel replies:

1) I am not aware of there being any direct connection between the
translation for Talmai and the tragedy of the Asarah Harugei Malchus. There
was a gap of hundreds of years between the two periods. Talmai lived in the
third century before the common era, while the ten martyrs were in the
second century of the common era, which means possibly that around 400
years separate the two periods.

2) However, as you say, there is a common theme behind the two tragedies.
This is stated by the Midrash Asarah Harugei Malchus, a Midrash from the
time of Chazal that relates the entire account. It is often printed
together with the Kinos that we say on Tish'ah b'Av.

The Midrash says: "When ha'Kadosh Baruch Hu created the trees, they grew to
be very powerful and high, and were very happy. But once ha'Kadosh Baruch
Hu created iron, the trees were sad and said, 'Woe to us that ha'Kadosh
Baruch Hu created iron which can chop us down.' So, too, if Yisrael would
not have taught Torah to the Emperor, this disaster would not have
happened."

We see from this that the force that later destroyed them was actually
created by the Jews themselves, since they taught Torah to the Emperor.

3) Possibly we may suggest why they were not all killed at the same time
based on what is written in Maseches Semachos, which is one of the smaller
tractates, printed in the back of most sets of Shas in the same volume as
Maseches Avodah Zarah. In chapter 8, Maseches Semachos relates the order in
which the Chachamim were killed. It seems that the first to be murdered
were Rebbi Yishmael and Raban Shimon ben Gamliel. Maseches Semachos then
tells us that when the news of the death of Rebbi Yishmael and Raban Shimon
reached Rebbi Akiva and Rebbi Yehudah ben Bava, they put sackloth on their
loins out of mourning and tore their clothes. They told everyone that the
death of Rebbi Yishmael and Raban Shimon was a bad sign for the world: a
great disaster was on its way. Then, after Rebbi Akiva was martyred, the
news came to Rebbi Yehudah ben Bava and Rebbi Chanaya ben Tradyon. They
said that Rebbi Akiva had died as a forebringer of the great suffering that
was going to be endured throughout Eretz Yisrael.

4) I suggest that the reason it happened in this way was to give the people
a chance to do Teshuvah before the evil befell them. We find elsewhere that
there is a difference between the way Hashem punishes the Nochrim and the
way he punishes Yisrael. See Sotah 9a, which states that Hashem does not
punish a person until his vessel is full of sins. The Maharsha there (DH
Ein ha'Kadosh) writes that this refers to the punishment for Resha'im.
However, for the Tzadikim, the Gemara in Avodah Zarah 4a (and Rashi there)
states that they are punished gradually, for their own good.

Kol Tuv,

Dovid Bloom

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