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THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim Rosh Kollel Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] [REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE TO DISCUSS THE DAF WITH THE KOLLEL] ________________________________________________________________ Bar and Bat Mitzvos Tzvi Stern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked: Not related to the Daf specifically, but: >From where do we learn that a boy is commanded in mitzvot from 13? A girl from 12? Thank you Tzvi Stern RBS ------------- The Kollel replies: On the Mishnah at the end of the fifth Perek of Avos, which lists the age of 13 as the age of Mitzvos, the Perush Rashi offers two sources: 1. From Shimon and Levi, who were called "Ish" when they killed the people of Shechem even though Levi was just 13 years old (if one calculates from his birth). This is also the source suggested by Bartenurah and Rabeinu Bachye there. If so, apparently the age of 12 for a girl is learned from the age of 13 for a boy, since a girl matures quicker (see Sanhedrin 69b, Bava Basra 16b in Rashi, Nidah 45a). 2. The age of 13 (and the growth of two pubic hairs) is learned from a Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai. This is also the source suggested by the Teshuvos ha'Rosh 16:1, who cites the Gemara in Sukah 5b that contends "[all] Shi'urim are Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai"; this is also a Shi'ur. Below you will find our Insights to Nidah 45:2 and 48:2 which relate somewhat to your question. M. Kornfeld ============ Insights to Nidah 45 2) THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE AGES OF MALE AND FEMALE PUBERTY OPINIONS:The Gemara asks, why it is that a girl reaches Halachic maturity sooner than a boy. The Gemara explains that "Binah Yeseirah Nitnah l'Nashim." (a) The TOSFOS ha'ROSH explains this to mean that women are given Binah (understanding) earlier than men -- i.e., their mental capacity develops at a younger age. (b) The RAMBAM (Perush ha'Mishnayos ad loc.) explains that women physically, and not just mentally, age faster than men (they have a shorter lifespan), and thus they also reach maturity sooner. (c) The ROSH (Teshuvos, #16) explains that all of the Halachic indications of maturity are Halachos l'Moshe mi'Sinai (and thus there is no obvious, rational reason to explain why women reach maturity earlier than men). ================== Insights to Nidah 48 2) THE HALACHIC "SIGNS" OF MATURITY Two pubic hairs are considered to be a sign, or "Siman," of maturity for Halachic purposes. Before the growth of such hairs, a child is considered to be a minor, since his mental capacity has not yet fully matured. The growth of hair would not seem to be intrinsically associated with mental maturity. Are the two hairs just a tell-tale, physical sign indicating that the child if physically -- and therefore mentally -- developed? Or did the Torah (in the spirit of "Lo Pelug") stipulate that no matter how well a child can think, he is not considered a "Bar Da'as" unless he has two pubic hairs as well? (That is, are the hairs a *sign* of Halachic maturity, or do they *bring about* Halachic maturity?) (a) The MAHARIT (Teshuvah 1:51) writes that the growth of hairs does not bring about Halachic maturity. They are merely *signs* that the child has matured. The Maharit points out that this is consistent with the meaning of the word "Siman," which Chazal use to describe the hairs. This view is also evident from the words of RABBEINU CHANANEL (quoted by the ROSH in Gitin 9:11), who writes that we do not have the insight to be able to determine Halachic maturity based on the mental sharpness of a child; therefore, we have to rely on the Simanim to determine when he has matured. It may be inferred from his words that if we could determine the sharpness of a child without having to rely on Simanim, the child would be considered mature even before the Simanim grew in. (b) However, the SHITAH MEKUBETZES (Bava Basra 56b, DH v'Li Ani) writes that Simanim actually *bring about* the Halachic maturity of a child, and they are not merely indicators of maturity. To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with this text in the body of the message: unsubscribe daf-discuss