On Sat, 31 Oct 2015 18:11:48 +0000, Lisi Reisz <lisi.re...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday 31 October 2015 16:37:41 Richard Owlett wrote: > > Lisi Reisz wrote: > > > On Saturday 31 October 2015 16:18:15 Mario Castelán Castro wrote: > > >> El 31/10/15 a las 10:05, Richard Owlett escribió: > > >>> Martin Read wrote: > > >>>> On 31/10/15 12:02, Chris Bannister wrote: > > >>>>> Logically, doesn't it make more sense to make it so that you > > >>>>> install > > >>>>> with the minimum number of packages necessary, and then > > >>>>> download any > > >>>>> extra packages you want *after* the install? > > >>>> > > >>>> Only if you accept austere minimalism as axiomatically good. > > >>> > > >>> *YES* <grin> > > >>> That 'yes' would not have been so bold except Debian defaults go too > > >>> far in the other direction. E.G. I just installed Squeeze to one > > >>> machine be cause I like some Gnome2 features that Gnome3 zapped and I'm > > >>> not sure exist in MATE (am investigating). > > >>> > > >>> Applications->Internet lists 8 applications, none of which are of > > >>> interest and does not list the only internet application I need > > >>> (SeaMonkey). > > >>> System->Administration lists 10 applications, only 1 of which I use > > >>> more than once a month (Synaptic) and doesn't list one I use almost > > >>> daily (Gparted). > > >>> > > >>> I'm working on learning debootstrap and multistrap to have things > > >>> suitably minimal and powerful simultaneously. > > >> > > >> I have also noticed that Debian installs a lot of "extra" programs by > > >> default. For example, when I installed LXDE using the latest (Debian 7) > > >> LXDE CD and, I obtained LibreOffice, Iceweasel and Deluge (among many > > >> others), none of which are part of LXDE, and of those, I only wanted > > >> Icweasel installed since the beginning. > > >> > > >> If you want to control more precisely which packages get installed, you > > >> can also install a text-only system and then add the additional packages > > >> with the package manager. It won't give the same results and isn't as > > >> flexible as Debootstrap or Multistrap, of course. > > > > > > It isn't Debian that installs all those packages. It's the DE. All > > > anyone has to do to avoid them is not install a DE. You are given the > > > option. > > > > > > Lisi > > > > But extraneous cruft is not intrinsic to using a DE. > > Yes, it is. That is why it is called an environment. That is what makes it > an environment. Without cruft it is effectively a window manager. Not necessarily. A desktop environment can be a rather minimal collection of programs- a window manager, desktop background thingy, file manager, and panel qualifies as a desktop environment. At the very least, a desktop environment is just a window manager packaged with some other useful stuff. Xfce comes pretty close to just being a window manager (xfwm), a desktop (xfdesktop) a panel (xfpanel), and a file manager (thunar). A desktop environment doesn't need to be packed full of cruft. If by 'desktop environment' you are referring to the bloated RAM-eating monstrosities known only as GNOME and KDE (especially KDE) then I take the cruft point.