What would help the problem a lot is if debates go more into specific sublists instead of going onto desktop-devel. One of the main reasons for this is that for many sub-projects the relevant maintainers are not on the relevant lists. I find it kinda pathetic for instance that someone who proclaims himself Lord of the Theme is either not subscribed to or at least have never posted to the gnome-themes list, and through that is forcing theme discussions onto desktop-devel. Similar problems for other sub-projects, which together collate into desktop-devel getting flooded.
Maintainers actually being part of the subproject they pretend to maintain instead of screaming murder on 'global' lists would do more for this problem I think than lots of 'shut up' messages sent to desktop- devel or gnome-hackers. Christian On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 00:09 -0500, Seth Nickell wrote: > >You have every right to ask for an off-topic discussion to go off > list, > > but you have no right to recommend people not reply to him, and you have > > no right to say the way he wants to make a proposal is "useless". Its > > his time to use as he pleases. > > > > If he puts forth something that looks like "dogs breakfast", then you > > can dismiss it on more valid grounds than that you personally don't like > > his methodology. Some people work differently than you Jeff. You should > > find more constructive ways of deal with them then telling them to shove > > off. > > Jeff was certainly curt, and perhaps should have been gentler in making > the point, but he's probably right too. In his judgment (and mine too, > fwiw) that thread was doomed to produce very little impact, a lot of > noise. > > Something GNOME enthusiasts on this list often seem to forget is that > its *not* just their time. When you send a message to a mailing list, > you are asking for everyone to spend some time on it. When you start a > thread that will draw lots of replies, you are, unwittingly or not, > asking for everyone on the list (including hackers) to spend lots of > time. > > I define the GNOME enthusiast community as: those who are actively > involved with and interested in GNOME but have NOT contributed large > quantities of code, translation or documentation (there are several > exceptional cases, for example Jeff himself, but not a lot). We need > enthusiasts and should value them! It provides a source of excitement, > sociability, feedback on how we're doing in different areas, and > sometimes even new ideas. > > But right now, the lists have become driven by the enthusiast community > to the extent that hackers have gone into hiding. A good thread on > desktop-devel-list *should* be predominantly (75% or more, say, as a > totally arbitrary number) posts by core GNOME hackers related to that > area. Look at a thread now.... probably 90% of the posts are by > enthusiasts. That's taking "being in touch with the community" a little > too far to the point that its hard to get work done ;-) > > For example, most of the people actually writing code that will be in > the next GNOME release have probably been actively deleting every > message to this theme thread! Its not because they don't care, its > because they don't want to take the time away from working on gnome to > wade through all the noise. And they shouldn't have to. > > Compared to its peak as a lively discourse among the hackers doing core > contributions to the gnome codebase, desktop-devel-list is almost a dead > list in terms of "useful things accomplished". Part of the problem is a > *very* high noise level, and also very annoying persistent threads of > the bike shed variety. > > Something people only relatively recently involved in GNOME (last couple > years) wonder is about the relative silence / non-responsiveness of core > hackers. It seems like desktop-devel-list, despite all the traffic, has > very few people who are getting something done (see usability@gnome.org > for an even worse example of this that is even more my fault). That the > lists we (core hackers) used to haunt have become a tangle of weeds is > one of the major factors driving this. > > As community leaders in GNOME, one of our jobs is to shepherd the lists > so they do not become exceedingly noisy (and scare away important hacker > to hacker traffic). But we have largely abdicated this responsibility in > the last couple years. markmc tried to fight the tide about a year ago, > but eventually gave up. Its hard *because* we're actually very nice > people, and thus none of us want to be the list nazi. But its also very > important to have this sort of pruning to be a healthy community. > > We've been talking about this a lot lately in s33kret cabal discussions. > That we feel the need to have these private circles is part of the > problem! Nobody, even those of us involved in the cabal (and especially > not Jeff who is an outspoken supporter of openness and inclusion), want > this sort of private exclusionary construct. > > So what's the point? > > 1) Desktop-devel-list, #gnome-hackers, etc have been drowned by a deluge > of well meaning (and healthy, when found in moderation) enthusiast > involvement. > 2) The loss of effective communication channels has had a major negative > impact on the amount and pace of GNOME development. Esp. development > across the whole desktop (as opposed to in-module development where > there's a relevant specialized list). > 3) If the enthusiast community wants to help GNOME, they need to be > understanding as we try curtail (primarily socially, by asking people to > show restraint) how freely they post / chat on IRC about whatever comes > to their head. We *do* want community input, but with such a torrent, we > end up shutting our ears, not hearing any of it, not hearing eachother, > stop hacking, and gnome dies. > > I know it will be painful: some of you who are accustomed to posting a > few (or even more) times a day and that has to change. Please understand > this is for the health of GNOME: If you are quieter, hackers will be > louder. I am very apologetic we haven't been good at reinforcing this as > a community norm all along. Its always more painful to have to go > through a transition, esp. one in which your voice gets quieter, than to > integrate with an existing set of social norms. But do not fear, we WILL > hear the enthusiast community voice, in fact, we will hear it better > when we aren't stopping up our ears because its so loud. ;-) > > No disrespect intended, > > -Seth > > _______________________________________________ > desktop-devel-list mailing list > desktop-devel-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list _______________________________________________ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list