I can answer the question about why HOCON. 1) it has nice syntax, 2) you can
use values in any part, in any other part which means you don't have to write
the plugin name's 3 or 4 times unnecessarily (which you can do only with
properties currently) and 3) because you can include external documents which
can by updated by plugin providers upstream. Think archetypes but dynamically
updated. This means users typically include a HOCON file from the plugin
provider and set a couple of properties instead of writing plugin elements in
XML.
If we think of the existing POM DOM built by the XML parser as the interface,
you can parse any (tree config) format into that POM DOM (that's fun to say).
If that doesn't work, instead you can translate other formats into XML. Either
works and if necessary you can work around plugins that reparse XML.
Finally, for users to use a new format, they have to know it exists. I doubt
too many folks knew about the polyglot feature. Someone on this list had to
tell the rest of us about it and I imagine the folks on this list know more
about Maven than anyone else. For this to matter, it has to be part of the
Maven 4 release PR. Then it creates discussion in the wider community and
hopefully that should help bring in younger users and devs. That's the
ultimate goal. At the very least, it gets rid of the negative reaction younger
devs have to XML from Maven.
Hunter
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 10:23:12 AM PDT, Romain Manni-Bucau
<rmannibu...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dead by its usage by end users, was abandonned years ago by its dzv, then
reudated then re etc.....didnt say nobody uses it, just it is not sane for
us probably to absorb such project.
Issue with conversion the one mentionned: you need to run anything before
loading it, -1 if an ide or any tool cant parse the descriptor straight.
Also means such solution is a side project and not maven built in feature
(like a launcher wrapper like gm).
Last: why hocon, it is good but has its own pitfall and first one being a
low adoption compared to others and user requests.
Do overall Im interested in such a feature but should likely be made
outside maven as a bridge tool to keep everytool happy, we must not assume
everybody starts using a mvn project with mvn cli, it is likely not that
accurate IMHO.
Le mer. 7 juin 2023 à 18:24, Christoph Läubrich <m...@laeubi-soft.de> a
écrit :
> Please note that Tycho uses polyglot very extensively (and develop it
> actively), so please don't assume it is "dead" just because you are not
> aware of its usages!
>
> For me using XML or JSON or ... for THE SAME THING does not add much
> value, but Tycho extends polyglot to the extend of deriving maven model
> form existing meta-data files, ther fore you can use maven to build your
> eclipse/osgi projects WITHOUT any form of POM (aka pomless build).
>
> Example of "one configurator pom":
> https://tycho.eclipseprojects.io/doc/master/StructuredBuild.html
>
> Example of "completely pomless" (only requires an .mvn/extension.xml in
> project root):
> https://tycho.eclipseprojects.io/doc/master/BndBuild.html
>
>
> Given that the only "maintain" in polyglot is to adapt to maven
> (internal) changes if maven would just support out-of-the-box what today
> is "polyglot-common" that would be great and everyone could then also
> write the pom in whatever today-hype-text-encoding... and support even
> more sophisticated cases like Tycho with little to no maintaining.
>
>
>
> Am 07.06.23 um 18:05 schrieb Romain Manni-Bucau:
> > Maybe let's stabilize XML and ensure we can make it evolving properly in
> > time before supporting any other format which will impact negatively the
> > ecosystem IMHO since a lot of descriptor parsers are not org.apache.maven
> > (which is a very good thing IMHO, means we have a portable enough format
> to
> > be adopted).
> > Once we will tackle that support question I think the main point is which
> > formats do we want to maintain (support is not a big deal, maintaining
> is).
> > While I can envision xml and maybe json are no drama, any other one will
> > probably end as polyglot, kind of abandonned they restarted then
> > re-abandonned so from my window I don't see it as great for the community
> > ("good bad idea" we sometimes say).
> >
> > Romain Manni-Bucau
> > @rmannibucau <https://twitter.com/rmannibucau> | Blog
> > <https://rmannibucau.metawerx.net/> | Old Blog
> > <http://rmannibucau.wordpress.com> | Github <
> https://github.com/rmannibucau> |
> > LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rmannibucau> | Book
> > <
> https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/java-ee-8-high-performance
> >
> >
> >
> > Le mer. 7 juin 2023 à 18:02, Guillaume Nodet <gno...@apache.org> a
> écrit :
> >
> >> A very rough cut at supporting HOCON is available at
> >> https://github.com/gnodet/maven-hocon-extension. It currently requires
> >> https://github.com/gnodet/maven/tree/polyglot (mainly to add the maven
> >> model as an attached artifact during the build so that it can be
> consumed
> >> by the hocon parser generator). The generated parser does not handle
> the
> >> whole model yet, so it's very experimental (and an important part of it
> is
> >> the plugin configuration which is... xml). A very simple parseable POM
> is
> >> available at
> >>
> >>
> https://github.com/gnodet/maven-hocon-extension/blob/main/src/it/simple/pom.conf
> >> . If people are actually interested in that, we may be able to move it
> as
> >> an official maven extension.
> >>
> >> Note that takari-polyglot is broken with maven 4 and the above parser is
> >> only for maven 4...
> >>
> >> Anyway, I'm all for moving maven forward !
> >>
> >> Guillaume
> >>
> >> Le mer. 7 juin 2023 à 02:31, Hunter C Payne
> >> <hunterpayne2...@yahoo.com.invalid> a écrit :
> >>
> >>> I completely agree that JSON is just reinventing the wheel. But that
> >>> seems irrelevant from a marketing perspective. And HOCON is actually
> >>> better than either JSON or XML. If your potential customers first
> >> reaction
> >>> to Maven is 'ick XML' then it doesn't really matter if XML is better.
> >> Just
> >>> my experience and opinion.
> >>>
> >>> Hunter
> >>> On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 05:24:59 PM PDT, Gary Gregory <
> >>> garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Playing a bit of devil's advocate here: while I've not used it, there
> >> is a
> >>> maven polyglot plugin that IIRC let's you author your POM in other
> >> formats.
> >>> But yeah, XML can be a pain but XML Schema is super handy in tooling
> and
> >>> editors. In the meantime, JSON is just reinventing the wheel...
> >>>
> >>> Gary
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jun 6, 2023, 20:02 Hunter C Payne <hunterpayne2...@yahoo.com
> >>> .invalid>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Sorry to be glib. I apologize. But I did have a point. The
> attitude
> >>>> that Guillaume has about my emacs (which has been updated more
> recently
> >>>> than either the JVM or your IDE) is exactly the same attitude I face
> >>> when I
> >>>> try to get new users to use Maven. In the case of Maven, it is use of
> >>> XML
> >>>> for the pom, in the case of emacs its all the weird key bindings
> (which
> >>> you
> >>>> actually already know because of bash). I hope this actually helps.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hunter
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 04:42:10 PM PDT, Hunter C Payne <
> >>>> hunterpayne2...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Ok, sonny...go back to using software I wrote to do your
> development.
> >>>> Hunter
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 03:47:56 PM PDT, Guillaume Nodet <
> >>>> gno...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Sounds like the only really plausible answer ! So if they can stay
> >> on a
> >>>> runtime which is 10 years old, an editor which has been released
> nearly
> >>> 38
> >>>> years ago (well, not the latest version of course, but still...), why
> >>> can't
> >>>> they stay on maven 3.9 which is a few months old ?
> >>>>
> >>>> My proposal was to support critical bug fixes (i.e. security or no
> >>>> work-around, but that can always be discussed) on the latest branches
> >>>> supporting LTS JDK for some time..., so 3.x for JDK 8, 4.x for JDK 17
> >> and
> >>>> maybe 5.x for JDK 21 or 24 or whatever the LTS jdk would be at that
> >> time.
> >>>> That would be a change from what has been done for the past 15 years,
> >> as
> >>>> looking at history, I think 2.0.11 was the only micro version ever
> >>> released
> >>>> after the next minor version.
> >>>>
> >>>> Guillaume
> >>>>
> >>>> Le mar. 6 juin 2023 à 23:05, Hunter C Payne
> >>>> <hunterpayne2...@yahoo.com.invalid> a écrit :
> >>>>
> >>>>> emacs
> >>>>> Hunter
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tuesday, June 6, 2023 at 11:19:43 AM PDT, Guillaume Nodet <
> >>>>> gno...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> One question for people that want JDK 8 support. What IDE do they
> >> use
> >>>> to
> >>>>> develop ? Because none of the actual IDE is running JDK 8, though
> >> they
> >>>> can
> >>>>> be used by JDK 8, just like maven with toolchains.
> >>>>> So really, the argument does not really stand, but for the very
> >>> minority
> >>>> of
> >>>>> devs still using emacs/vim.
> >>>>> It really comes down to ease of use (i.e. not having to use --release
> >>>> flag
> >>>>> or to setup a toolchain) vs staying on JDK for 10 more years.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Le mar. 6 juin 2023 à 18:32, Michael Osipov <micha...@apache.org> a
> >>>> écrit
> >>>>> :
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Am 2023-06-06 um 07:42 schrieb Hervé Boutemy:
> >>>>>>> it's not about *one not wanting* to upgrade (anybody can use JDK
> >> 17
> >>>> if
> >>>>>> they want currently)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> it's about *one forcing everybody else* to upgrade (and enter the
> >>>>>> toolchain setup question)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> EXACTLY!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> ------------------------
> >>>>> Guillaume Nodet
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> ------------------------
> >>>> Guillaume Nodet
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ------------------------
> >> Guillaume Nodet
> >>
> >
>
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