"Teresa Flores" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: << I always had doubts about environmental sociology, but if it leaves "leaves nonhumans out of an analysis of the environment", has nothing to do with an environmental framework. Humans could not have ever existed without animals and plants. >>
Agreed. << We coevolved with animals, and we should not keep them apart of us. The closer we are with them the better for humans and animals.Close doesn't mean intrusive. >> I distinguish co-evolving from dominating, owning, enslaving. Is a cloned sheep a good thing for humans and animals? Is it co-evolving to selectively breed traits that transform a wolf into a chihuahua? What about chickens bred by humans, who want to buy and sell as much meat as their little bodies can supply, to be so chest-heavy that they cannot walk? I am all for sheep, wolves, and chickens. But I think they'd be far better off if we respected one and only one right -- their right to be let alone. << And also animals benefit from humans, we give them food, love and shelter. >> Please note that the same could be said by the benign slave-owner. Here I intend ~not~ to belittle the plight of any group of slaves throughout history. But we have also made animals our slaves. I wrote that "dependency upon human beings is not, in my view, a benefit conferred on other animals." Teresa Flores answered "Domesticated animals often cannot survive without humans." I see this response as tautological. They cannot survive without humans because of the fact that humans developed them that way. Why, it was asked, can domestic animals never, even theoretically, achieve liberation in human society? In the society in which we now write, they will be property as long as they are "in human society". Real liberation must start with the proposition that they cannot be brought into existence solely as instruments of human beings. Yes, every living being depends upon other living beings. But that does not mean they have to be "in society" - except their own. I said that I live with five "rescued" animals and consider them my family. The number is now six. (The new one dragged herself to my door using only two front legs, having apparently been hit by a car, as is not uncommon with pet animals cast outside and attempting to survive.) The question came back: "If they are respected why they should achieve liberation?" They cannot achieve liberation as domesticates. Although I consider them memebrs of my family, I know they are refugees. They cannot fend for themselves if I leave them. Teresa Flores also asked: << should domestic animals be sterilized? >> Yes. Best wishes, Lee.
