On 12/17/23 21:52, Thaddeus Waldner wrote:
Okuma have something like an accelerometer or perhaps a mic in the spindle but 
they use it to optimize feeds and speeds to minimize tool chatter.

One could synth that by setting up a siggen module running at about 2 hz, the mixing its sawtooth waveform into it spindles PID input to wobble the speed just enough to keep resonances from building up. Done it once on my 7x12 before I put the tapered gibs in it. doesn't take a lot, 5% speed wobble maybe to have quite an influence on a chattering fool. You almost don't hear it.

On Dec 17, 2023, at 7:14 PM, gene heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net> wrote:

On 12/17/23 18:19, Chris Albertson wrote:
Machine tools are a little different from 3D printers because
1) Printers are not built nearly are solidly are milling machines.  Milling 
machines do not flex very much
2) the printer head moves in air and there is no resistance to movement.  While 
an end mill has to have force applied to cut metal
3) if anything causes the mill’s spindle to vibrate it is the teeth of the 
rotating end mill, not “spring” in the machine's structure
That said, I had planned to use accelerometers in the feet on my next robot project. 
 Robot legs are very much like 3D printers or milling machines.  Each leg has three 
or more axes and needs to be precisely moved and while moving, the foot might 
unexpectedly collide with some object.  We can compute the expected acceleration on 
the foot and compare to the actual and find the difference.  The robot operates in 
the uncontrolled real-world and I expect many “surprises”.  The 3D printer is 
“bendy" and flexible so I would expect a difference between expected and 
actual.  But the milling machine is so sturdy, I’d expect little difference.
But still, it would be a very easy experiment.  Decent accelerometers cost less 
than $20 and you could simply place one in the jacobs chuck and then jog the 
mill around and see what the accelerometer says.   No software changes to LCNC 
would be needed, just put the little PCB in the chuck and look at some plots.

Depends on the mill or? In the case of my G0704, the accelerometer should go on 
the table for xy motion, not the relatively stationary chuck which generally 
only moves vertically. In the chuck on something like the 6040, a medium sized 
gantry I have.  The acceleromter s/b on the moving part IOW.

Here is one that I have
https://www.amazon.com/HiLetgo-Gyroscope-Acceleration-Accelerator-Magnetometer/dp/B01I1J0Z7Y/ref=sr_1_1_sspa
HiLetgo MPU9250 GY-9250 9-Axis 9 DOF 16 Bit Gyroscope Acceleration Magnetic 
Sensor 9-Axis Attitude +Gyro+Accelerator+Magnetometer Sensor Module IIC/SPI
amazon.com
On Dec 17, 2023, at 8:52 AM, gene heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net> wrote:

One of the not so quiet revolutions taking place in the 3d printer landscape 
over the last couple years is called input shaping, something probably done 
best in the cards like Peter Wallace makes.

A simplified explanation is fitting an accelerometer to to tool head, the 
exciting each axis it turn withe an audio sweep of a small amplitude, sweeping 
from 10 Hz to about 250 Hz while measuring the resulting movement with an 
adxl345 recording the data it outputs for each of the axises tested. Since a 3d 
printer works in slices, the z axis is generally much slower on the 3d printer, 
so is left out in some versions.

This data is then run thru a forrier or butterfly transform to develop a 
compensating acceleration curve that does not effect the overall speed, but 
does reduce the fine detail or boost it, to essentially cancel the machines 
natural vibrations. On a 3d printer, given enough heat to supply the head with 
continuous hot plastic, the use of this compensation has taken the 3d printer 
from 50 or 60mm/second maximum speeds to 200 mm/second over the last 2 years. I 
can now buy a printer with this built into its OS for under $1000.
There is one obstacle, most 3d printers do not have an interpreter that knows 
about G2/G3 and its ilk, so most slicer's converts those to tiny straight line 
moves that look like a circle in plastic.

This is done in the default interpreter, Marlin, but is done better by klipper 
in the better printers but can be reflashed into 99% of the controller cards 
out there just like we can do with Peters cards.
This interpreter runs on the controller cards, often stm32 based cards that 
sell for, in the ones BTT makes for $59 for a low end octopus card, which can 
drive up to 8 motors, 5 fans, 3 heaters and all our limit/home switches and 
probing gizmo's.  Some of these even include the G2/G3 stuffs.  These cards are 
nearly all designed to handle nema-17 motors at 24 vols and maybe 3 amp max 
motors, but one line of the octopus family of cards has a separate motor supply 
input that assumes 60 volt rated drivers so even those tiny motors can be moved 
at amazing speeds.

Top that with signal stealing plugins that fit the driver socket of these 
boards I'm rebuilding 2 bigger printers with nema-17 versions of the closed 
loop servo/steppers with optical encoders that use drivers like we use with 
linuxcnc, 2m542 sized stuff, but now rated for 90 volts and up so they can be 
driven at unreal speeds w/o losing home. The PID is in the driver, linuxcnc 
just tells them what to do and they do it. And if they can't do it, they will 
tell linuxcnc, stopping it by linking that signal into the F2 of linuxcnc. 
Doing the stop quick enough on my Sheldon the I can position a chuck jaw in the 
way, and jog a carbide chipped tool into that jaw at 20mm a second, it hits the 
jaw, the driver shuts off the motor drive at the same time it tells linuxcnc to 
stop, the release of the motor drive lets it spring back away from the jaw by 
10 thou or so. The carbide chip is not damaged and the chuck jaw is not marked. 
 Tested many times, but has never occurred wile running a job on either machine 
where I've put those motors. No PID's in the lathe config, no PID's in the 6040 
config. Its all in the much smarter drivers.  They use the PID error to control 
the motor current so if conditions are low load, very little current or motor 
heating, but it it hits something, it will use every amp the supply has to 
prevent a step loss, so home is maintained under downright abusive conditions.  
In short, they Just Work and work well.  I'm so sold I have 3 more motors, 
drivers, and higher voltage power supplies to convert the G0704's other 3 main 
axises to them, the A axis already is. With the PID's in the drivers, there 
will only be one PID left in the G0704 when I'm done, in the spindle circuit.

It is the "input shaper" thing I think could improve the finish linuxcnc can 
do, effectively driving the machine to cancel its vibrations as it changes speed and 
directions.  Doing it at ridiculous speeds. And that pays the bills in a for profit shop.

Something to investigate, for 3.1 maybe?

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis


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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
- Louis D. Brandeis


_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
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_______________________________________________
Emc-users mailing list
Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis


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