EV Digest 3038
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EV superhero's
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Blue Meanie Mods, the details
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: E-Woody's E-boat
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Charge Time?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Something else to convert?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: New conversion/LA area information request
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Man arrested in connection with the Hummer BBQ is released
from jail
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: biased meters
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [Evercel-EV] big enough?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: biased meters
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Charge Time?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: [Evercel-EV] big enough?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EV Charge Time?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Charge Time?
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: EV Charge Time?
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Motor Info Site?
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'll second that. What would we do without the tradin' post and the photo
album? I'm also impressed he has time to take care of all this stuff.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Hower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 9:16 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EV superhero's
In my original post I mentioned several people
that have contributed to the design and supply of
parts for the EV community.
I left out one of the most important contributers
to the EV cause, Mike Chancey.
I bought the TEVan From Mike, but his evalbulm
attracted a buyer for my 1984 Fiero Electric.
This was a *BIG* bonus since the wife was happy
to see that garage space empty!
Thanks again to Mike for his efforts with the
EVAlbum that has brought lots of recognition to
the EV cause on the internet!!.
Rod
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I received a few personal emails about what it's going to take to do the 204V version
of
Blue Meanie, and thought it might be interesting for some to read. This post could turn
out to be a bit boring, but on the other hand, to some, it might be useful to read
about
what it takes to make an already successful conversion, even better.
Anyway, here goes....
>From my friend Paul 'Neon' Gooch:
>So where is the DCP 1200 currently in the Blue Meanie going next? I
>know you have an older one with the full dose of power and a proven
>track record. While I would like to run an LV Zilla water cooling is
>just not a proper addition to a beach buggy. It won't hide well, and
>it was *never* supposed to be water cooled anyway :-)
Paul's right, the Meanie's Raptor is one of the early, bad-nasty highest current
models...rated at 1200 'battery amps', and something even higher into the motor
loop...I
think Da' Madman said it could dish out 1800 motor amps! It has been the rock of
dependability, never a breakdown, only quiet, squeal-free, smooth power. Where I agree
with Paul's idea that his beach buggy 'needs' an air cooled controller, he'll have to
look
elsewhere for his controller, as my Raptor will next, power up the '66 Datsun minitruck
project. Rudman and Damon really made one killer, up-to- 156V controller!
For the new 200+V duties, I've turned to Otmar for more of that incredible Zilla power.
The original model Godzilla monster under the hood of that 'other' Datsun 1200, has
also,
never, ever had a single problem, even though I've really put it through its paces. The
nearly half megawatt controller has sucked enough amps to melt-down batteries, has sent
motors to their deaths, and has turned axles, trannys, drivelines, and rear ends into
stuff only suitable for the metal recycling yard, but through it all, not a single
Godzilla
failure! The Z1K HV Zilla destined for Blue Meanie, backed by 17 feisty Orbital XCDs,
should give that car a bit of a Zombie attitude!
>Oh, how are you going to properly hide 4 more batteries in the Meanie?
Man, that's a good question! I do, however, have it all figured out, but boy, it took
me a
while. The Datsun 1200 is a very little car, but being a front engine, rear wheel drive
platform (as opposed to today's more conventional FWD offerings), it has a surprising
amount of space for 'stuff', and its factory 'midship located' fuel tank area
sandwiched
between the back seat bulkhead and the trunk worked out great as the spot for 7 of the
car's 13 batteries, with the motorized rear tray making it easy to get to the batteries
while it doubles as a nifty trash compactor :-) Still, I already had it pretty well
maxed
out everywhere, and the thought of how to cram in four more batteries was daunting.
I'm pretty pumped up about Blue Meanie's scheduled revamp. I am committed to doing it
at
204V. Because the Orbitals are 4 lbs. lighter than YTs (40 lbs. vs 44 lbs.), there's
enough weight savings in a 156V pack of 13 (42 lbs.) to add a 14th battery and still
have
the car weigh pretty much the same. Taking this logic a bit further, adding four
batteries
at 160 lbs., minus the 42 lbs. weight savings from the 13, makes the new 204V pack
weigh
just 118 lbs. more. Besides blistering performance (the top speed should be
scary), it will have an increased range to 35-40 miles, I think.
Planning it all out to get the 17 Orbitals stuffed in my small Datsun 1200, without
butchering it up and or ruining its nice cosmetic appeal both under the hood and in the
trunk, has taken lots of brain time. I have a dummy Orbital here, as well as various
Optima
dummies, so that's been a big help. Though the Orbital has that rectangular top piece
that
is an eighth of an inch longer and has the side posts that stick out a bit further
than do the
Optima's, and even though the battery sits about an inch taller than the Optima, the
bottom part of the battery where the business end spiral cells are (the same 6 pack of
beer shape as an Optima) is about 3/8 of an inch shorter from end to end...if you
picture
the top piece as a lid that overhangs on the cells at the ends, you get the idea. I can
make them fit the existing rear motorized tray, with only a new top piece 'frame'
needed
to be made. That's really good news, as I don't even want to think about making an all
new
motorized tray!
For those who have EV's with battery 'boxes', the Orbital XCD model creates two
problems
that prevent it from being a drop in Optima alternative. The first, is the 10.25 inch
long top
lid piece, that when, say four batteries are put end-to-end in a box, end up needing
1/2
of an inch longer space, so if you had a battery box made so that four Optimas fit in
just
so, you could not do the same with four Orbitals. The second is the side post issue,
and
unlike Optima YTs that can come either with or without them, there's only one Orbital
XCD
model, and it has the goofy side posts to deal with. At least with
Optimas that do have side posts, you can nestle them side by side in a box and still
have
the tops of each battery fit flush with each other, because the battery indents right
under the top lid piece, so the side posts simply tuck under and fit against the
junction
of the spiral cell walls where they curve in and meet each other. The Orbital XCD side
posts stick out a pinch farther than those on the Optima, and to make it even worse,
the
XCD model battery has about an inch thick portion that is rectangular just under the
top
piece lid, so it does not indent to the cell walls right away like an Optima...yes,
below
that inch thick top area it does indent to the spiral cell walls, but it doesn't indent
soon enough
to allow the side posts of an adjacent Orbital XCD to tuck under it, and instead, they
butt right into that top area, forcing the adjacent battery to sit about a half inch
away! So,
with EVs that have their design so that Optimas sit flush either side by side or end to
end, Orbital XCDs simply will not work. Thankfully, the Blue Top Orbital marine version
lacks the lamo side posts, and this battery has the identical inside guts as the XCD.
It's
a better choice for those who might need to stack the batteries sized by side.
I've been fortunate to get full battery sponsorship from Exide, and they are currently
wanting to showcase their XCD model, especially in vehicles considered 'exciting and
showy'. This battery is squarely aimed at the car stereo and low rider hydraulic crowd,
hence the fun 'Purple Haze' name. Plans are, that future Purple haze models will sport
a
purple top lid...cool! Now, if they'd only diss those awful side terminals!
Considering the above negatives in regards to the XCD's side posts, I got real lucky
with
Blue Meanie when it came to fitting this model Orbital battery in place of the
Optimas...real lucky! Making up an all new rear motorized tray wasn't an
option, but because it's a 'tray' instead of a rectangular 'box', with a stout framed
bottom, no side walls, and a top 'hold-down' frame, it worked out almost scary good!
If
you use your mind's eye, you can see how the rear tray's batteries are currently
arranged.
Standing at the rear of the car and with the tray extended, the rear batteries of the
tray
(those closest to the rear seat) are end to end, three of them. The tops of the three
Optimas are 30 inches stacked end to end. Three Orbitals end to end, would take up 30
and
3/8 inches. However, the bottoms of the current Optimas extend out about 3/4 of an inch
further, than the three bottoms of Orbitals will, even taking into account the longer
tops, so the Orbitals will simply drop into the tray end to end across the back of the
tray,
just as do the current YTs. Even luckier for me, is the way they will orient to have
their
top posts polarity the same as the YTs are right now, with the positive on the right
and
the negative on the left, so that the rear pack's output cables will not have to be
changed...cool! It gets better...the awkward side posts just happen to point outside of
the tray, towards the rear seat, so they won't cause interference problems with the
adjacent row of batteries! The row of four batteries at the front of the tray, closest
to
the rear of the trunk, unlike the rear three batteries, sit side by side,
meaning that there is no way to prevent the Orbital side posts from pushing each
battery
about a half inch further away from each other, as do the current four YTs that neatly
stack side by side, but again, it works out beautifully. The current YT pack looks
like a
fat 'T' as they sit in the tray, with the three end to end batteries forming the 30
inch
wide top of the 'T', and the four side by side batteries forming the fat vertical
section
of the 'T'. Where the bottoms of the three rear batteries fit flush with the side
walls of
the tray floor, the four that sit side by side are about three inches away from those
same
tray bottom side walls. The new Orbitals will simply fatten up the vertical section of
the
'T', and will come within, say, 2+ inches of the tray bottom side walls. Because the
three
rear batteries' side posts face out, the front four tops can fit flush against the rear
three tops, and since the spiral bottoms of the Orbitals are about a half inch shorter
in
length, there is no space problem in that regard, either. Other than making up a new
top
hold-down frame, the Orbitals will simply drop in to the tray!!! I had to make up a new
top hold-down frame anyway, as the current one was made for the early style Optimas,
the
ones that were actually 9 and 15/16 inches long, instead of today's Optimas that
are exactly 10 inches long and a scoshe wider, too. After I changed out the original
Optimas, the top piece has always been forced over the slightly larger tops of the
newer
Optimas, so it became a warped, stretched, and badly fitting affair that I have been
wanting to redo. It seems almost a miracle that the weirdo sized Orbitals will actually
fit perfectly into the one part of the car I was most worried over, that rear
tray....whew!
Now that you can see that the rear tray will be largely left the same, sans the new top
frame, you can also see that it will still hold seven batteries, leaving the other 10
to
somehow, fit under the 1200's small hood, where there is currently, uh...just six
Optimas...hmmmm. Even that part seems doable, but it 'is' a challenge. The good
news, is that even though there seems at first, to be no way to fit the batteries under
there, I think I've found a way to get it done.
An early version of Blue Meanie, circa '94, had a 132V system, using a Curtis 1221B
and 13
group 27 Trojan wet cells....11 for propulsion, and 2 for a hefty 12V system charged by
twin Sevcon DC-DC converters. Later, this went to 12 of them at 144V through an Auburn,
and 1 left for 12V duties...I digress. Anyway, because they were group 27 size, the
trays
that hold the two lower mounted Optimas right now, are the original group 27 ones, but
with spacers to keep the shorter Optimas from sliding back and forth. These will come
out,
and new more compact
trays will go back in, making just enough extra room for two more trays, one on each
side
of the motor, to fit down low as well. This leaves just two more batteries to be dealt
with.
Currently, there are the four Optimas grouped together above the motor and to the rear
near the fire wall. There is no extra room there, as the two batteries closest to the
firewall, are sandwiched between the wiper motor on the left, and the brake master
cylinder on the right. The front row mimics the back row, that is, two batteries
end-to-end, but it is here where I can get more space...I think. Remember the Bad Boy
charger (BBC) ? It's still under the hood, but other than used as a back up in case of
a
PFC charger failure, it serves no function. It's coming out, and along with it, goes
another 20 lbs. of unwanted weight (it has a toroidal 'boost' transformer inside that
weighs 10 lbs.)....now the change-over to the new 204V battery pack adds just 98 lbs.
more weight to the car over the current 156V pack of Optimas. With the BBC gone,
there's
an extra five inches or so of space to the left of the front two batteries. There's
currently about 3 inches of space on the right side of the right battery, near where
the
solenoid throttle affair is mounted for the DCP 1200. Otmar's Z1K controller will use a
pot box, an item that is about 2 inches thinner than the current solenoid throttle
affair,
so that will
create even more space to the right of the battery. Now, with the BBC on the left and
the
solenoid throttle affair on the right both gone, there's more than enough room to
change
the front row of two Optimas end-to-end, over to a row of four Orbitals,
side-by-side...cool!
The next problem, is enough space front-to-rear, for this new deeper row of batteries
to
fit. Because the existing front row is batteries end-to-end, it's only 7 inches deep,
as
viewed from the front of the car, but the new row of four Orbitals, side-by-side, will
be
the 10 and 1/8 inch size that is the length of each Orbital, making this new wider row
of
batteries come forward another 3 inches or so. The left three batteries will clear
things,
but the fourth rightmost battery will run into the corner of the bulky PFC
charger...bummer. No problem, I've got this covered as well. The Z1K controller is
considerably smaller in size than the big DCP 1200, so here's how it's going to play
out....the PFC20 will get moved from its current position at the right front corner of
the
car and sitting flat on a table-like pedestal, to being mounted on its side at the
center
radiator core support location, where the large DCP 1200 is currently mounted....it
will
barley fit, but it will. Next, the Z1K controller will sit where the PFC used to be,
but
it is a whole 6 inches shorter than the big charger, and so, makes lots of clearance
for
that fourth battery....whew! I talked Exide into sending me batteries without their
stickers applied, so that after I arrange the under-hood batteries, I can put the
stickers on so that no
matter which way a battery sits the label will read the same as adjacent batteries.
As you can see, this will be a lot of work, but when it's done, in true Wayland
fashion,
it will have the same sanno look the car has always had....you'll still be able to see
the
mighty 9 inch motor, and the battery pack will have a symmetrical appearance, with the
six
upper batteries grouped together, two end-to-end at the firewall, and four
side-by-side in
front of them, and the other four batteries mounted down low, largely out of sight,
just
as are the two current lower mounted Optimas. The car will be less than 100 lbs.
heavier, but in trade, will have a 35-40 mile range, and will sport 40 more electric
horses! My cruise current at 55 mph will go from 55-60 amps, to something like 35-40
amps.
I'm also creating an even better sound system. I've
never been happy with the bass output of the four eights in the rear package shelf,
especially after doing the Insight up right! I designed the subwoofer setup way back in
'94, and based it around the four 'Impact' brand 8 inch subs that were sponsored to me
at
the time. These are pretty cheesy by today's standards. I turned the rear package shelf
into a sealed wood-lined cabinet, by sandwiching a piece of MDF under the metal of the
package tray from the trunk side, and sealing it with caulking. I ended up with less
than
1/4 cubic feet per woofer, hardly what they need to make decent bass, and the resultant
bass is more midbass than deep bass. The woofers themselves are far from being anything
close to say, a beefy JL Audio 8 inch driver, like the one I have used in the 80+
'ShoeBox
Subs' I've built and sold to happy Insighteers around the country. Set up in a sealed
enclosure of 1/3 cubic feet with the proper amount of fiberfill, one of these drivers
simply blows away the four 8's in the car! The wimpy old style drivers, the lack of air
space, and the lack of any fiberfill whatsoever, combines to make a disappointing
subwoofer array. The other day, I disconnected the four 8's and hooked up just one of
my
ShoeBox Subs inside the car, and set it on the rear seat cushion....man, it filled the
car
with chest impacting, deep bass! I'll be cutting four, 6 inch holes under each of the
bass driver positions, in that lower cabinet bottom of MDF. I've got enough clearance
above the rear battery tray, to mount a second air chamber MDF enclosure, that will
increase each bass driver's volume to 1/3 cubic foot. This piggy-back cabinet will be
screwed and glued to the under side of the cabinet bottom, and the four 6 inch holes
will
expand the air volume into this new chamber. I'll stuff the new enclosure with
fiberfill,
and mount up four, brand spank'n new JL Audio 8w3V2 bass drivers...the same ones I use
with the ShoeBox Subs. In effect, Blue Meanie will have four ShoeBox Subs! The last
time I
hooked up four of these, was when I did a crazy bass test of four in my Insight...they
were a good match for the two 12's!
To complete the package, I've got a new JVC Kameleon CD deck, the latest version of the
one in the Insight, ready to go in the dash. I'm finally ready to retire the DAT
Kenwood
machine. The current Sony 10 disc CD changer will remain, as it has a separate console
mounted changer controller, allowing the Sony brand changer to play into the aux.
input of
any deck, and of course, the JVC has an aux. input. Yes, the JVC is a changer
controller
deck and is ready to control a JVC style changer, but I've already got the Sony custom
mounted in the car, and I see no reason to switch it out.
I'll probably keep the classic Sony amps, but who knows, maybe they will get changed
later.
Sorry for the rant to those who could care less, but for the Blue Meanie fans out
there,
the car should be way better....quicker to 60 by a full second, top speed increased, a
strong range increase, and a much improved sound system!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rick and All,
--- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > The E-boat's hull and 2 hp e outboard are
> > done, interior is next. It will have a 1'x1.5'
> glass
> > bottom viewport.
> >
>
>
> Hi Jerry,
>
> That view port sounds like a blast!! Sounds like a
> great place to put one of
> those inexpensive video cameras. If I lived in your
> area, I'd loan you one
> fo mine just to be able to have a chance to copy any
> video tapes you made. I
> know there's a beautiful mermaid out there
> somewhere, so be careful with the
> prop, but good with the camera!! LOL
I'm working on a manatee/ mermaid safe prop
system and boat designs incluing EV versions to
provide safer boats for humans and creatures.
The present style of power boat design for small
boats are unsafe and use way too much fuel. 20+ people
die here each year because of boat sinkings in rough
weather. These are unnessasary. EV cats and tri's are
the answer with protected props.
>
> I think someone is sneaking ideas from the nice
> folks up at Crystal River
> near Ocala, and I like it! :-)) I really enjoyed
> the tour of that wonderful
> river. Seeing the Springs and all the sights that
> are too numerous to
> remember let alone mention, was an experience I hope
> to enjoy again someday.
Glass bottoms go back to the early 1800's at
least.
We have a dozen+ springs like that here in Fla,
maybe the most, biggest in the world in size. And the
only way to see most of them is with a glass bottom.
The tour boats on these springs have used e glass
bottom boats for 50+ years.
If you are a fisherman a glass bottom is much
better than any electronic equipment for finding fish.
Also lets you check if your anchor is set. Important
before you go to sleep.
>
> I think your plan is splendid indeed. The multi
> evehicle idea is great! I'd
It's a larger version of my bicycle/ sq back
canoe rig I used to travel with. I used to load up for
the flea market in Key West with 450 lbs of stuff in
the boat/trailer and bicycle it there. It was
surprisingly easy to pedal the load.
Later after I swallowed the anchor the rig was
used for shopping for lumber,ect and carrying 2 gp31
batts to power the EV Warrior motor I put on the
front. The motor pulled me, my 20" folding bike and
the 300lb trailer and load well for 30+ miles but the
friction drives slips in the rain, wet roads which
happens too often here for it to be reliable
transport.
BTW thanks to Roger and Jay for the VW
suspension tips. I'm checking them out as they would
be cheaper. I need 10 of these for my first 10
composite versions of the e=woody so cost is
important. Plan is to sell the e-woody and use the
money to build the first composite version.
> Good luck and keep us boat dreamers posted on your
> progress!!
Don't dream, DO! Costs to build a boat like
mine is under $100 materials - e-parts. There are
lakes, rivers, streams everywhere, even the desert. A
great way to camp too. You could save enough boat
camping from hotel costs to pay for the boat and trip
to Fla!!!
For designs check out Phil Bolger, boat designer
or Woodenboat mag who have done several E-boat stories
lately. Most rowing, sailing small boats work well on
electric propulsion.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
> Regards,
>
> Rick
>
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> If we need upwards of 500Amps at 240 volts, how can we get this?
Any big building or factory has this kind of power. The problem is that
the utilities have to size all their equipment to allow continuous duty,
but such an EV 'fast-charger' only uses it for minutes a day. Installing
the electric service is expensive, and people who charge from it don't
want to pay. So, the economics are bad.
Also, utilities don't like high peak loads. They cause brownouts and
power failures! If you put in such a high peak load device, they are
going to demand that they have a way to 'shed' this load (cut power to
it) at their convenience, to avert a blackout. That means your fast
charger might be unavailable at exactly the time you need it most.
>> - How about a dump charge device!
> The one problem I see here is the cost of the battery.
But, the dump charger batteries can readily be shared between many
devices (this fast charger is probably located so it can be used my many
different EVs). There are no particular size or weight restrictions on
the dump pack; they can be cheaper, older, low-performance batteries.
The dump pack may also have other uses. For instance, as a source of
backup power during power outages, or for solar or wind generator
storage so you don't have to backfeed excess power if you don't need it
right now.
>> Here's a practical use for a large fly wheel, spin it up over
>> the course of a few hours, and discharge it rapidly!
Except that the size and cost of the flywheel exceeds that of batteries.
Also, flywheels use considerable power just to stay 'charged'.
>> Another aspect that needs addressing it the rate at which the EV
>> batteries can be charged without damage or substansially degrading
>> their lifespan.
Up to modest rates (say 1C, i.e. 1-hour charging), it does not appear
that battery life is harmed; in some cases it may help life. But as you
go higher, at some point fast-charging is going to reduce battery life.
And, it add significant cost to the EV for all the extra monitoring
equipment and safety protection needed.
Thus, I really don't think fast-charging is destined for mainstream
usage.
More importantly, I don't even think it is necessary. People addicted to
gasoline think 5-minute fillups are mandatory. That's because the fullup
process is so onerous that they want to do it as little as possible.
With EVs, charging can be so easy that it is hardly noticed. Once you've
had an EV for a while, fast-charging no longer seems necessary.
Finally, if there really is a need for fast-charging, I think some kind
of battery-swap scheme will be developed. That's what we do for laptops,
camcorders, and portable power tools.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve and All,
--- "Coallier, Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.go-t-rex.com/
>
> Only 900 pounds. Not legal everywhere in the U.S. I
> suppose, but they have at least one dealer in my
> state!
This unit has way too much weight on the rear to
handle well. When you need to turn even slightly hard
it will just slide straight ahead. NOT GOOD!
Though on my moped tired 3 wh trike with 45% of
the weight on the single front wheel can be fun
sliding the rear end out in turns. Oversteer is better
to have than understeer the above will have have. I
hope I have those terms correct.
The only way to have an ICE motorcycle trike like
this is to put the driver over or in front of the
front wheels which can be exciting driving!!! Can you
say human bumper?
jerry dycus
>
> How would that 4.1 second 0-60 time come out if it
> were Electrified?
>
> Oh well...I can dream, can't I? {sigh}
>
> .Steve
> "Attack life, it's going to kill you anyway!"
>
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Davis Scott wrote:
> I am starting an electric conversion on an '80
> corolla, at this point looks like a ADC 4001 with an Auburn
> controller and a bank of 20 T105's... My daily commute is
> ~40 miles, mostly freeway and definitely inclusive of some
> stop&go traffic. Estimated finished weight is targeted for
> 2800-3000lbs. Input and thoughts gladly accepted!
Hi Davis,
Your plans will give you a car very similar to mine (Renault LeCar with
20 US145s, can't quite drive it yet - so close!) and Bob Rice's VW
Rabbit with 20 T145s(?). Bob's weighs around 3200 lbs I think, and mine
is probably about the same. (A stock LeCar is around 1850 lbs.) I
worked *very hard* to get all those batteries in my car, keep seating
for four and maintain a barely acceptable (to me) weight distribution of
approximately 50/50. I had to cut and reshape structurally critical
areas of my firewall to do it - something you should not attempt unless
you're very confident of your understanding of such matters.
I would not have done this at all if I didn't have access to suspension
components that would bring the handling back up to "normal". Braking
is even more important.
I'm not positive, but I think Bob simplified things a bit by giving up
his back seat and putting most of his batteries there. If true, that
means his weight distribution is biased more toward the rear. Not the
best situation for a FWD car, but perhaps workable in Bob's case. Care
to comment Bob? The good news is that Bob has reported a real on-road
range of 100 miles per charge. T105s will give somewhat less.
In my case the extra work to achieve my goals made the project drag out
interminably. Newbies beware! Think *very hard* about what you're
willing to put into your project before you get fancy on your first
conversion. Even a very basic, proven conversion is a huge investment
in time. Start simple, maybe a truck, 914, Rabbit or Metro built from a
kit. Or shop around for a used conversion. There are some very nice
ones in the Tradin' Post for less than what the EV components cost.
Job #1 is to get on the road and start getting experience with EVs.
Then you're in a much better position to get fancy on your next one.
Been there and paid the price,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ItalysBadBoy wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Looks like the 100 or so neighbors that rallied around Mr. Connole may have
> been right, he is not the one the FBI is looking for. Mr Connole statement
> regarding the person in the video...."How can anyone think that was me?" he
> asked, referring to one young man seen in the video. "The guy had Nike shoes
> on. I would never wear Nike shoes."
I must say I thought the report which was posted here via EVLN regarding that
arrest was disgusting.
It appeared to paint the fact that the members of this commune or whatever were
vegan, drove electric and grew their own food as evidence supporting connole's
guilt!
So, anyone opposed to SUVs and excessive consumption of everything (even
implicitely by driving an EV) is now anti-american and branded a terrorist?
[..]
Brian Levin, the executive director of the Center for the
Study of Hate and Extremism at Cal State San Bernardino,
profiled a personality type attracted to such to such a
movement. A typical member is someone who lives in a
commune, is a vegan, uses alternative modes of
transportation, grows their own food and swallows the
"ideology' that attracts them, "Hook, line and sinker.'
[..]
I've never heard such a thing in my life, if that's a true reflection of the
state of affairs in America, well, actually, I'm *not* surprised any more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Sep 2003 at 6:54, Aaron Birenboim wrote:
> This 1992 force has an Ah meter with a "Solectria" face plate.
If it's the original from the factory, it's almost certainly a Brusa BC-29.
These are absolutely minimal. They have no buttons or switches - just the
counter display and two LEDs on the front panel (red blinks on discharge,
green on charge).
I don't really recommend taking it apart, but if you do you'll see the name
and model number etched on the pcb.
You can download a pdf manual for the BC-20 from this page:
http://www.brusa.biz/e_manuals.htm
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
MPG of Ford's most fuel-efficient 1993 car: 36
MPG of Ford's 1912 Model T: 35
-- Harper's Index, Sept. 2003
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Sep 2003 at 7:06, Aaron Birenboim wrote:
> What are option for air conditioning?
I'm waiting for someone to try powering the sealed induction-motor
compressor from a window aircon with an inverter.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
All we learn from history is history repeats.
-- Andrew Ratshin
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
On 16 Sep 2003 at 6:54, Aaron Birenboim wrote:
This 1992 force has an Ah meter with a "Solectria" face plate.
If it's the original from the factory, it's almost certainly a Brusa BC-29.
These are absolutely minimal. They have no buttons or switches - just the
counter display and two LEDs on the front panel (red blinks on discharge,
green on charge).
I don't really recommend taking it apart, but if you do you'll see the name
and model number etched on the pcb.
You can download a pdf manual for the BC-29 from this page:
http://www.brusa.biz/e_manuals.htm
Thanx much! This is definately what I have.
Looks like it has some seperate output signals for
driving external meters, plus some digital signals
that could be very useful.
It has one signal that toggles when the Ah counter gets to 0.
This would be great to control a charger. Just let it
run for another hour or so at 0.25 or .5 amps after this signal
triggers for equalization.
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Fulcher wrote:
>
> You know all this rescent talk about the only flaw of the EV,
> Recharge time. Has got me thinking.
>
> If John "Plasma Boy" Wayland can Dump Charge an EV pack in minutes:
> - "This is about an 80% charge in 3 minutes!"
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/4038
>
> What would it really take to bring charging times down to a
> reasonable level in production and conversion EVs?
>
> If it takes something like 6 hours for an 80% charge of the EV1
> pack from a 220 source, what kind of source would be nessicary
> for truely "Fast Charging".
>
> How about a Duel or Quad 220v charger (~880vac), would this give
> me a 1.5 hour 80% charge? That's not good enough...
>
> How about a Quad 330vac charger (~1320vac), 1 hour charge time?
>
> Look, If John can charge a pack in three minutes then the industry
> can surely get it done in 15 minutes. Why does this not happen?
>
> L8r
> Ryan
A dump pack followed by a PFC50 taper off curve would just about
minimize the charge time.
Read dump pack it for the 400-800 amp peakamps this DOES get %80 into
the batteries, then use a couple of 12Kw chargers to do the constant
voltage taper, and hold, then time it out for a complete cycle.
The only real lilmits are battery temp, and some of the more advanced
chemistries don't like super fast charges without a temp feed back to
keep them cool enough.
Somebody said that the real test is a %90 refill in 10 minutes. OK... it
better be a lead acid pack that we are doing and it better be a cool
day.
I think I could wire up a Eval unit for about $10K without batteries
that could do 10Kw in about that time. The recharge currents would meet
or exceede the main controller currents in the dump pack stage. I have
seen this done at the APS races last decade. The Dump packs out charged
the NORVIC $250K charge systems. They only had a 75 Kw Gimmy for power
supply.
The point is it can be done, but you need a large source pack and some
brains at the final end to keep from frying the Batteries once the
acceptance params are met.
The larger the source pack the less Grid power you need. The bigger the
Grid charger the faster you can turn the system around for another
cycle.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
>
> On 16 Sep 2003 at 7:06, Aaron Birenboim wrote:
>
> > What are option for air conditioning?
>
> I'm waiting for someone to try powering the sealed induction-motor
> compressor from a window aircon with an inverter.
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> All we learn from history is history repeats.
>
> -- Andrew Ratshin
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
This makes aLOT of sense.
12 volt 500 to 2500 watt inverters are getting small and.. relatively
cheap. Have a healthy DC/DC Read 400 to 800 watts, and a good sized
House 12 volter, and you can run a good sized off the shelf Aircon with
it. Strip off the packaging, and reduce the volume and weight, and your
have a nice heater Air con unit for a few hundred bucks.
Since most of the higher level EV have the DC/DC and some small support
battery, this is almost trivial. What is the smallest off the shelf Air
con unit? What does it take to start it up?
You can get a REALLY small fridge unit for $80 bucks for dorm room
work, I get even on this small would really suck some heat if properley
modifies and the air flow was ducted right.
High tech would be doing a inverter and using the clock to slow down
the Freq so that you could reduce the power to the compressor for light
uses. NO Bang Bang on/off.
I think this is exactly what the EV1 had for heating and cooling.
We can do it.
Now if we could get DCP to up the snort on thier DC/DC to 800 to 1200
watts... we would have all we need.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Also, reality is all this desire for Avcon compatibility is
> really relevant only for California.
Hi Victor,
I have to take exception to this. Most of the people on this list are
EV enthusiasts. To us, EVs are so cool that it's no big deal to have to
haul out a big extension cord and plug in it at both ends (sometimes
over a sidewalk - you DO use a cord cover in such situations, don't
you?), then unplug at both ends, coil it up and stow it when we're done.
Think about it. Is that something you would want to make a video of to
show how "convenient" EVs are? How dirty are your hands after coiling
up a 30' cord that's been laying on the ground (sometimes wet ground)?
When people demonstrate the ease of plugging in, they show someone using
an Avcon or Magnecharger. Because it really *is* convenient. The cord
is right there hanging from the charge station. Just pop in the
paddle/plug and walk away.
I'm on the east coast, where I'll probably have the only EV in daily use
within a 20 mile radius. I will have an Avcon Power Pak (when they
start shipping again after a brief halt) because I want to let non-EVers
drive my car and charge it. I want them to come away scratching their
heads thinking, "Wow, this works really well! It runs great, it's
convenient, it burns zero petroleum and makes zero pollution. Why can't
I buy a car like this?"
An Avcon may seem like unnecessary fluff to many of us, but it really
seals the ease-of-use issue for the public. If we want widespread use
of EVs, we need to convince the public - not each other. Sometimes we
EVers are too hands-on for our own good.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> More importantly, I don't even think it is necessary.
> People addicted to gasoline think 5-minute fillups
> are mandatory. That's because the fullup process is
> so onerous that they want to do it as little as possible.
And if the vehicles were pulling into Battery Stations instead of Gas
Stations, with standardized/modular battery pack systems, robotics
would swap out the packs in *less* than 5-min. The automated Battery
Stations (battery warehouses) would monitor and charge batt packs. How
things might have looked today, if battery electrics hadn't laid
"dormant" through so much of the 1900's? Odor free fillups with no
drips. Self-serve while seated in your vehicle. Bloody
infrastructure. ...sorry. just a little blue sky dreamin' <smile>
Lock
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are going to compare Avcon to conductive you really should compare
them in equivalent situations.
If you install an outlet dedicated to charging your EV in a place where you
do not have to use a 30' extension cord then there is really very little
difference in convenience.
How convenient would the Avcon be if the closest you could get the car was
30' on the other side of a sidewalk.
Now compare efficiencies, including the manufacturing costs of the Avcon
verses the outlet and plug. Which one uses up the most resources to do the
same job. After all EVs are all about being more efficient.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Tromley
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:09 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: EV Charge Time?
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Also, reality is all this desire for Avcon compatibility is
> really relevant only for California.
Hi Victor,
I have to take exception to this. Most of the people on this list are
EV enthusiasts. To us, EVs are so cool that it's no big deal to have to
haul out a big extension cord and plug in it at both ends (sometimes
over a sidewalk - you DO use a cord cover in such situations, don't
you?), then unplug at both ends, coil it up and stow it when we're done.
Think about it. Is that something you would want to make a video of to
show how "convenient" EVs are? How dirty are your hands after coiling
up a 30' cord that's been laying on the ground (sometimes wet ground)?
When people demonstrate the ease of plugging in, they show someone using
an Avcon or Magnecharger. Because it really *is* convenient. The cord
is right there hanging from the charge station. Just pop in the
paddle/plug and walk away.
I'm on the east coast, where I'll probably have the only EV in daily use
within a 20 mile radius. I will have an Avcon Power Pak (when they
start shipping again after a brief halt) because I want to let non-EVers
drive my car and charge it. I want them to come away scratching their
heads thinking, "Wow, this works really well! It runs great, it's
convenient, it burns zero petroleum and makes zero pollution. Why can't
I buy a car like this?"
An Avcon may seem like unnecessary fluff to many of us, but it really
seals the ease-of-use issue for the public. If we want widespread use
of EVs, we need to convince the public - not each other. Sometimes we
EVers are too hands-on for our own good.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are a few.
http://www.reliance.com/prodserv/motgen/b7096.htm
http://www.engin.umich.edu/labs/csdl/ME350/motors/index.html
A bunch of the links on this page seem to be bad but you may get something
of use. http://www.iserv.net/~alexx/lib/motors.htm
http://www.oddparts.com/acsi/motortut.htm
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/elemot.html#c1
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roy LeMeur
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 1:05 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Motor Info Site?
<< snip >>
--- End Message ---
