EV Digest 5149
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) 24 volt charger
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: GM analysis of Prius, was: Hybrid efficiency
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Craigslist: 192 VOLT ELECTRIC: FORD ESCORT conversion - $500 (san
anselmo)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Freedom EV body and : For Your Viewing Pleasure..........BBB an' Stuff
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Emoo
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Possible conversion candidates. Arcane. One with CVT.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: For Your Viewing Pleasure..........BBB an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Possible conversion candidates. Arcane. One with CVT.Comments!
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Hybrid Efficiency vs Barbeque Sauce
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Regen settings, was Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OFF TOPIC! (was Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range)
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: how to ask to charge at work - why do you think you ruined your bats?
by Lance Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: GM analysis of Prius, was: Hybrid efficiency
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Hybrid Efficiency vs Barbeque Sauce
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electric 'Power Breakfast' this Sunday at the Village Inn, Portland
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE:Current Eliminator Dragster News
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
I recently had a black and decker battery pack for my 18V drill reloaded
with NimH batteries instead of NiCad batteries. My charger won't work with
it now. I know I can use the NiCad power source to charge the NimH pack but
eventually it will kill the pack. I am learning how to use Stamps and I was
thinking it would make a nice charge controller. Has anyone made one using
a stamp before? Also, does anyone know where I can get a 24V 2 amp power
supply?
Jody
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 06:52:58PM -0800, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I would not stay in a locked garage with a car that reads zero
> emmisions, it is still using up the oxygen and emmiting CO2, we just
> don't track those as emmisions.
Better make sure you check the emissions from your real world car before you
begin your test. As the link I posted earlier shows, more then half the
pollution generated by ICEs is caused by the degradation of emissions control
systems.
> One step furthur, replace those fuel
> engines with 20 people, You will suffocate as fast.
>
<..snip..>
> I guess we can't compare a battery, which is storage of energy NOT
> storage of fuel. You would have to bring the power plant inside your
> garage.
Why didn't you bring the refinery, diesel powered super tanker, and dozens
of simi-trucks in for the ICE test? ;)
>
> This made me think of the whole phrase "Hydrogen Fuel Cell electric
> vehicle." Hydrogen is considerd an energy carrier because we transfer
> energy with it by putting energy into creating it at the other end, but
> we use it as a fuel, which increases the worlds CO2 output, the canery
> in the garage still dies.
The output from a hydrogen fed fuel cell is heat, electricity, and water.
There are no CO2 emissions from the cell. All CO2 generated by a fuel cell
is upstream. Although the canary may still die from asphyxiation, as a
fuel cell will still consume the O2 in the air.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug,
I have no doubt that American engineers can be as qualified as
their Japanese collegues, but that does not mean that you will
get the whole story from the "chop shop".
Every major manufacturer, does not matter if it's cars or other
product, has some engineers take the latest competitor product
apart to learn what they did and how to position themselves
against the competition.
Even if the chop shop found out exactly how GM could be profitable
with Hybrid technology, even then its up to the GM management to
decide if they go Hybrid or Hydrogen.
If they see more money or less risk (due to their years of lag
with Hybrids) when going the Hydrogen route, even if everyone
can make the balance on a napkin that it is not energy efficient
and will not be anything substantial for years to come, still the
management can have their own reasons to give direction to go the
other route.
In such a case you won't hear from GM's chop shop that the Hybrid
makes sense and GM should better reconsider.
When minds are made up, truth is out the window.
OK, one last point to consider:
The GM chop shop was pointing out in great detail how many moving
parts there apparently were in the Prius drivetrain.
Did you also hear them mention that going Hybrid deletes so many
moving parts that so often wear out and cause costly repairs,
such as alternator, starter motor, gearbox, clutch....?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:43 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: GM analysis of Prius, was: Hybrid efficiency
On Feb 3, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
>> I also know that Toyota has been losing money on the Prius hand over
>> fist.
>
> Can you please provide some evidence of that?
<snip>
> If you have new info about the Prius, I like to read it.
The current issue of Wired Magazine has an article about GM's "chop
shop", where they tear down competitor's vehicles and figure out how
much they cost to make. GM's conclusion on the Prius is that there's
no way that Toyota is making money on it. They think it's an attempt
to make Toyota look technologically sophisticated and green.
<http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html>
Lots of interesting info in there - if you want to believe it. IMHO,
just because GM can't figure out how to make money building Priuses
doesn't mean that Toyota can't. The article also says that GM gave up
on making hybrids and decided to concentrate on fuel cells after the
Prius teardowns. That's a red flag to me, since I have a real hard
time believing that fuel cells will ever make automotive sense from an
energy or environmental standpoint. Maybe they're slandering the Prius
as another excuse for continuing the hydrogen boondoggle.
Then again, what do I know?
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Found posting as shown below my sig.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
http://www.craigslist.org/nby/car/130545888.html
192 VOLT ELECTRIC: FORD ESCORT conversion - $500 (san anselmo)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 2006-02-01, 9:23PM PST
ZERO EMISSIONS ELECTRIC VEHICLE
1986 Ford Escort Wagon
Converted a dozen or so years ago by a hobbyist.
1FABP3495GW207303
It is presently registered with DMV in NON-OP
That means that it is approved by the DMV.
The title is clear
Needs a motor controller and batteries.
A great project car for school or hobbyist.
General Electric SERIES TRACTION MOTOR
Model: 5BT1346B50
Horsepower: 20.9 @ 4700 RPM - 90 Volts - 184 Amps
The motor is worth $500!
Call: 415-785-3317
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tend to agree with Chris.
Case in point. At the Labor Day Parade our EV club was in we had 14
cars in the parade. 10 Priuses, 2 Rav-4s, one S-10, my electric Ford
Escort, an electric Vego scooter and an electric bike.
The parade was going realllll slowww so all the hybrids were running in
electric mode and of course the EVs were all electric. And we did lots
of stops and of course the Priuses engines were off when they stopped.
So essentially all 14 cars were running the whole parade route in
electric mode. No emissions during that 1.5 mile stretch.
Compare that to the other car clubs that were there particularly the
Street Rods, antiques and all the Fire Departments with their diesel
engines belching out particulates.
If you were to wave one of those emission sensor things the emission
test stations have behind our group of 16 vehicles you would had zilch
for a reading. But if you waved that emissions sensor behind the Street
Rod Club or the caravan of antique cars then you get my drift.
Our group had to have prevented several grams of emissions being
belched out with our hybrids and EVs. And the parade spectators had the
benefit of standing by the sidelines without having to inhale a single
emissions from our 16 vehicles as we passed by. Plus our cars had
several people in them. We moved about 40 people that 1.5 mile stretch
without polluting the air.
So hybrids have to have some benefits particularly when at a stop when
they don't sit there wasting gas and idling and driving the streets at
30 mph when most are in electric mode.
So I agree with Chris. There are benefits.
Until I see the light, my argument stands. Hybrid vehicles produce "less
emissions" than ICE cars of similar performance, because their electric
motors allow them to run more efficiently so they use less fuel.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone seen or used these KiloVac LEV200 series contactors?
http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodimages/pdf/LEV200_ds_9-1773439-1.pdf
"Suited for power switching applications, KILOVAC LEV200 is offered in
upright or side-mount attachment styles with hermetically sealed
construction. Intrinsically safe product, able to be used in explosive and
harsh environments, is rated to continuously carry 500 A @ 320 Vdc when
using 400 mcm conductors at 65°C. It employs one Form X (SPST-NO-DM) main
contact and can interrupt up to 2,000 A @ 320 Vdc. Contact voltage rating is
12-900 Vdc. The KILOVAC LEV200 contactor is priced at $42.05 at the 100
piece quantity level. Lead times are typically two to four weeks."
I can't find anyone who deals these in small quantity :-(
I wonder what the 1 each price would be.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roger, Dave, Shawn,Shawn, Bob and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: For Your Viewing Pleasure..........BBB an'
Stuff
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>
><http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bobev99/album?.dir=/688e&.sr
>c=ph&.tok=phO 6gWEB2bKrU3EN>
>
>Thanks Bob; very cool to finally see the Freedom EV.
>
>I must admit to being surprised at it though; for some
>reason I was expecting it to be based on the Solectria
>Sunrise body/molds that were purchased, not on Jerry's
>e-Woody.
Actually it was based on the next Ewoody, a name I
have used along with Lumbergini for 10 yrs now and in the
archives of this list. I had thought to make plans available
but after thinking about my experience in building windgens
before they were cool, the work selling, educating people
would have sucked all the profit from it. So I had turned to
building my non dam hydro generators until the EV-1 fiasco
and some people decide to help me with funds to do the
Freedom EV. It's those people who have stuck their necks
out, put there money where their mouth was that have made it
possible for me to do it and we all should thank.
And it is basicly what the E woody was supposed to
be but I didn't get the front end body on the E woody
correct and had to add wheelwells on it's outside which were
not suppposed to be there. That's what you get on building
your first car from scratch ;^D 10 yrs ago. But even as a
mistake, the E woody has served nicely bring many smiles
from many people who have encountered it. My bank ladies
really liked it amoung others. It also proved how well 3wh
EV's can handle and how little, 100 wthr/mile they used.
That's why I took to building full size mock ups to
make sure everything fit correctly. The Freedom EV male mold
was built from that E woody plans proof of concept mock up
with the front wheel on the EVProduction Wiki page
http://evproduction.org/wiki/index.php?title=Progress_Pics
along with pics of the tooling molds, beter detail on it's
looks. .
I still have the plans E woody's chassis and maybe some day
finish it.
Most of the Freedom EV's tooling was already built
when the Sunrise came available and still a better EV to
start with as I don't have the legal problems of building a
4wheel EV until I can raise the money to put the Sunrise
into production. Probably from selling Freedom EV's unless
someone comes up with the money before then.
>
>BTW, "Lumberghini" is actually the name that a BC EVer gave
>to his creation several years ago, though I can appreciate
>its applicability to Jerry's e-Woody ;^>
>
>Cheers,
>
>Roger.
>CC: From: Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Thanks! It's been a while since we saw any new ones of the
Freedom.
The black one that Jerry is standing by was actually
produced from the
mold, right?
Yes it is the first body of the Freedom EV which
I'll use as a prototype to figure out just how the best way
to produce it. The production molds are back at the Glass
shop to get the gelcoat for the actual first production one.
They are all made with light layer of gelcoat and
will be painted after the cutting, drilling, ect is done to
the body/chassis to the customer's color choice.
The BBB was a hoot and really liked getting
together with other EV'ers. I especially liked Steve Clunn's
rather interesting truck that could spin it's tires at will.
Can you amagine the same EV drive in something like a
Porsche 944? Hint, Hint!!! It would diffintely sell better.
When it went around the Autocross course everytime it
accelerated, his tires would bark.
Much other great stuff too though for those next
yr, I suggest camping there unless you live close by and
bring whatever food, drink you need as it is pricy there.
So thanks Shawn, Matt, Lowell, Cliff, Chip and
others who helped put it on, it was a great first time
showing. As I have done stuff like that before, I know how
much work it is and you all deserve a hand for such a good
job!!!
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw a 2 1/2 ( I'm sure this is over rated compared to most motors )
electric mower motor in one of surplus center's catalog . If you get a motor
with brushes it will run on dc . Why not 10 small ( 6ah) batteries to get
your 120v .? would probable need to start up with a 2 speed contactor
controller , but resistor and contactor to short it . I would think a dc
motor would work better that a ac as you get more toqure when dc motor slows
down.
Steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: Emoo
What if I got one of those motors from the surplus center and used a
harbor freight inverter?
When the surplus center says 9amps, do you think that is max, continous?
Average?
What I am getting at, is to use this
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91848
and an orbital
I couldn't figure out what they are talking about
30amp fuse if on 12V side would limit the inverter to 360W
30amp fuse on 110V side is 3300 watts so isn't going to protect devices?
so I checked the data sheet :
the product data sheet says
" fuse 30Amps Internal not user-serviceable" what a narrow PC board
trace?
700 watts is output power and at 115 that is 6 amps continuous 1800 peak
is 15 amp peak.
Is this a good match for the surplus center motor? if I add a 115V
10Amp breaker?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Daf 600
<http://tinyurl.com/96qvv>
Morris Minor Pickup:
<http://tinyurl.com/c83sk>
Subaru 360:
<http://tinyurl.com/c5rl6>
Citroen "Dechevo" (sic):
<http://tinyurl.com/8x5yp>
Citroen Legere:
<http://tinyurl.com/ag75y>
Renault 8:
<http://tinyurl.com/c3m9p>
Pretty Austin:
<http://tinyurl.com/7fjr3>
Hupmobile:
<http://tinyurl.com/dkutb>
Hillman Husky:
<http://tinyurl.com/85d2b>
Reliant Scimitar:
<http://tinyurl.com/b9t9d>
Allard:
<http://tinyurl.com/dpvcm>
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Shawn;
That is/was the first one. Jerry was a bit disapointed with the black
color. The white mold at his house was a bit more attractive, the plug one
that he made the female mold from. Of course the Jel Coat determines the
final color. It isn't a Fordian 'Any Color as long as it's Black"Sparrow
Yellow, color of most of the Sparrows, I've seen, would be nice from a
visability thing.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: For Your Viewing Pleasure..........BBB an' Stuff
> Thanks! It's been a while since we saw any new ones of the Freedom.
> The black one that Jerry is standing by was actually produced from the
> mold, right?
>
> On 2/3/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > At Last ! A Link that should get by the Spam, an attachments police,
to be able to be opened. Sorry the pix are crappy, cheepo camera I had to
take apart in the dark to get the damn film out, rewind by feel, stuff. If
you ever developed your own 35mm film, you know what I mean!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "SFEVA"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 10:37 AM
Subject: Possible conversion candidates. Arcane. One with CVT.
>
> Daf 600
> <http://tinyurl.com/96qvv>
>
Hi All;
Just looked at this one. Ah! Memories, We did one of these at EFP years
ago. Bob Aronson's EFP of Detoilet, MI. With a Baldor 7 and a half hp motor
it ran quite briskly around town, when the Snowmobile type belt setup
squooze out about 60 mph could be obtained. As the squeeze of the pulleys
was determined by the manufold vacuum. We had to rearrange that system, upon
taking the thing apart found a flyball governor set up, ever take a Victrola
motor apart, to see the governor?Same thing.Adding weight to the gov.
weights took care of this speed adjust issue. We used a series parallel
controller and 144 volts worth of 12 volters.
But that car in the E bay is a piece of shit! Don't bother, or find a
clean Daf. Yeah! Good luck! Dafs are about as common as Palm trees in
Alaska<g>!But the Daf Veriomatic, too bad they wern't more common in USA.
In my travels yesterday I stopped at Total Performance Cars. They, to
you hotroddrers, build repro 32 Ford Roadsters. In Wallingford CT better
known here as "Wally World"You can have it in a kit or to a turnkey drive it
away. And you think EV's are expensive? These guys get princely prices for
the stuff. But they have a market. They are a auto manufacturer. And in CT?
I though they haven't built cars in CT since Pope electrics in Hartford and
Losiers in Bridgeport, 100 years ago, or more. Electrics EVen!But back in
those days CT was a maniufacturing place. Winchester is closing its doors
about now. For the gun thing.We still make jet engines in Hartford, Pratt
and Whitney"Dependable Engines " it sez on the engine you're looking at ,out
the window of the jet you're on.You HOPE so<g>!
Back to the story, I asked the guy how much the chassis weighed. He sez
that ready to run, with a big block Chevy, I think he sed? about 1600 lbs.
Damn thing must FLY!Without all the obsolete gas stuff aboard, well under
1000lbs. Chassis with a model T type front end and solid axle Ford 8 inch
rear end.Real Smithsonian stuff, but light. The fiberglas body was less than
100 lbs!Of course it is an open roadster, lousy for cold places, but cute
nontheless. I mentioned electric he sed that they had done a few electrics
for people or places in TEXAS!He couldn't give me any more details as it was
a few years ago. Any Total Performance Roadsters in Tex ya know about?
Whatthehell, here's a place building cars of Titanic era technology,
selling them, no crash standard issues. I consider the gas engines so
Titanic era tech. today, anyhow, 1912. Ya saw the movie?Great scenes of the
electrical generator room, marble switchboards, an' cool mechanical stuff.
They had the most awesome engine room scenes<g>! Go rent it!If ya
didn't!They still do shipwreck scenes today, the Egyptian Ferryboat disaster
the other day. See what happens , again, when folks get sloppy with safety?
This CT place can fly under the radar in car manufacturing. To me in the
budding Freedom EV era we can take a page from Performance's book on
building cars, EVen the Sunrise. Sell it as a kit to a turnkey thing, all
finished by a pro intererior detail guy.These guys must have a nitch thing
with regulaters, to building cars??Maybe they are only allowed to make X
amount of cars a year?
I was in Wally World at a performance shop, type of place that builds hot
rod motors, I mean ENGINES! Having my motor armature clutch setup balanced,
for the Rabbit. Put together,the armature, clutch and pressure plate, shaved
to 6 lb flywheel. He drilled and fussed with getting it all to balance.
Meanwile this place is a hangout for gas racing types. SOMEbody mentioned a
105MPH Datsun! They had SEEN the Drag Times thing! In CT Even, so this was
the topic over rounds of beers, as the racers goy EV educated, directed to
NEDRA. They had never heard of EV drag racing! Scary, but with the agreed on
gas chrisis just around the corner, it was a hot topic. These Beer guzzling
blue collar Joe Sixpack types willing to talk electrics, no Gen's on the
front wheels, very receptive to regen, and solar panels. The State of the
Onion thing the other day. Good round on laffs on that one!Oil co profits
was a hot topic as well as no national health coverage, as some of them had
been dumped in Co. changes.
We, EV's are being heard! I have a standing invite to bring assembled
Rabbit back on Fri nite jam session, anytime. Maybe with my new grabbier
clutch I can do a smoke show?
But it sorta makes a point. Our time is drawing nigh, the whole EV thing.
I'm sure back in cheap gas daze I woulda been laughed out of a Hot Rod
place!
Times are changing!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I can't resist responding to John...
Neon John wrote:
I also know because I've seen the efforts, that any of the auto makers
could match whatever economy is being achieved with hybrids if and
when the customer becomes willing to accept a different driving
experience and butt-ugly styling optimized for aerodynamics.
Specifically, an economy-optimized CVT.
John...ever hear of the Insight CVT? Better yet, ever driven one? I
thought so.....your answer was no, correct? Your economy optimized CVT
has been around since 2001...you need to get up to speed! Yes, a
conventional ICE can get pretty good acceleration and
better-than-average mpg hooked up the CVT. However, take the same engine
but modify it to be a cleaner burning Atkinson cycle type, or a fume
sniffing lean burn type, then include the electric side of the hybrid
equation, and you'll get far higher mpg and far more acceptable
acceleration. This is something Toyota and Honda have already figured
out...why is it so hard for you to get? Oh, I remember now...using your
own words...you just don't get it.
Oh yeah, one more thing...turn off the IMA (integrated motor
assist...there's a little trick we Insight owners know about that allows
you to do this), and the CVT Insight (and the 5 speed model, too)
suddenly has far less acceleration power, emits more pollutants, and
because it no longer has the low end grunt of the electric motor to help
it accelerate and keep up speed with varying road grades, it gets 5-8
mpg 'less' since one has to bury their foot on the gas pedal so much
more often to maintain the performance they were accustomed to when the
IMA was there to lend a hand.
The Prius uses the Atkinson cycle engine to get low emmisions, then
regains the acceleration power lost due to this type of engine's lower
performance, by using electric torque to fill what's missing...and, they
power the electric motor with kinetic energy normally thrown away by
conventional non-hybrids, through regen deceleration and regen braking.
The Insight uses a special lean burn engine to help it get stratospheric
mpg at the cost of no low end torque, then regains the acceleration
power lost due to this type of engine's lower performance, by using
electric torque to fill what's missing...and, they power the electric
motor with kinetic energy normally thrown away by conventional
non-hybrids, through regen deceleration and regen braking.
In both cases, special designs of gas engines can be used where they
once would have been considered unacceptable because of the performance
hit they bring. These off-the-beaten-path engines can now match the
acceleration power (and more often than not, exceed it) of more
conventional gas engines when the normally lost energy thrown away in
compression braking and friction braking is recaptured by regen, stored
in batteries, and used to feed an electric motor. Both the Prius and the
Insight provide substantially better acceleration and produce lower
emissions, than 'any' minimalist economy car remotely close to them. The
highest mpg Geo Metro got in the low 50 mph area, but had close to zero
crash protection, ran quite dirty emissions wise, and struggled to get
to 60 in under 15 seconds. The hybrids from Toyota and Honda have
exceptional crash safety ratings, are cleaner burning the most all other
cars available, and run 0-60 in ~ 10 seconds....not a muscle car by any
stretch, but acceptable by most consumers' standards, where the Metro
was certainly not. The answer is clear...hybrid technology does indeed,
work.
Hybrids are, IMHO, an expensive and transient gimmick, at least for economy.
Uh John....how's a car that can really deliver 90+ mph a gimmick? My
Insight gets 65-68 mpg in town and 75-80 mpg on the freeway when I'm not
even trying to get super mileage and am just 'driving' the car. It gets
even better when I do 'try' to squeeze the most out of it, usually above
90 mpg at 57-62 mph! On 400 mile round trips between Portland and
Seattle, I routinely get mid 80 mpg returns.
Where's your conventional, non hybrid car that can match a hybrid in all
areas? Where's the non-hybrid car that seats four, runs squeaky clean,
passes or exceeds crash standards, gets 60 mpg, and runs 0-60 in 10
seconds like Prius does? Where's your conventional, non hybrid 2 seater
that runs squeaky clean, passes or exceeds crash standards, gets 70-90
mpg and runs 0-60 in 10 seconds like Insight does? Clattering, stinking,
vibrating turbo-diesels aren't in the running, either. They are far
dirtier and far slower if their mpg starts to get close to a hybrid.
Yes, you can match the hybrids' acceleration with a turbo-diesel, but at
this point the mileage is way under the hybrid and the thing still runs
dirty emissions wise.
Again, only the hybrid offers the 'complete' combination of clean
running, high mpg, and decent acceleration.
Of course, since I've been associated with two of the big three auto
makers, what do I know, right?
Of course, since I've been associated with my own car now for 6 years,
what do I know, right?
See Ya....John Wayland
owner of a gimmick car that only gets 90+ mpg :-(
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Cor van de Water wrote:
> While rear wheel brake-out is a bad thing, I do not think you can
> lock up a wheel with regen, as the regen will completely cut out as
> soon as the wheel stops spinning, so there is automatically an ABS
> function on regen.
Regen does not control wheel speed; just wheel torque. Ask for enough
torque, and it *will* make it skid! Regen won't stop the wheel, but it
will be turning so slow that it is effectively locked as far as vehicle
dynamics are concerned.
> Even scarier were the times that I took off with freshly
> charged batteries and had to brake sharply, only to find
> that the almost full batteries could not take the regen
> current, so the voltage rose to astronomically high levels
> (over 420V) and the controller reported an overvoltage
> condition and shut down (dropped the contactors).
This is another drawback of uncontrolled regen.
My aircraft generator EV could easily produce 500 amps of regen; this
was enough to effectively lock the rear wheels, and seriously
overvoltage the 6v golf cart batteries when they were just off charge.
Most EV regen systems have been rather hastily designed, and aren't very
sophisticated. But cars like the Toyota Prius *have* successfully
blended their regenerative and friction brakes to prevent overvoltaging
the batteries, and integrating it with the ABS so the driver can't tell
which one is doing the work. It shows that it can be done.
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Hi Mike,
I ordered 4 of these (LEV200A4NAF side mount model) at the end of August
2005 through Tyco distributor FAI, where my small EV and electronics
development company, Billetronique, Enr., has an account. These were then a
new product, not yet in production. I received them mid November, nice
product, these were marked "preproduction". Two are installed, the other 2
are assigned, but I could sell those to you and re-order another lot. These
are going to be my "standard" SPST EV contactor for use in EVs and plug-in
hybrid Prius conversions. Your cost would be $75 U.S. each (includes the
delivery charge to me, but not the mailing cost from Montreal to you).
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike & Paula Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 4:38 AM
Subject: Where to buy KiloVac Contactors?
Anyone seen or used these KiloVac LEV200 series contactors?
http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodimages/pdf/LEV200_ds_9-1773439-1.pdf
"Suited for power switching applications, KILOVAC LEV200 is offered in
upright or side-mount attachment styles with hermetically sealed
construction. Intrinsically safe product, able to be used in explosive and
harsh environments, is rated to continuously carry 500 A @ 320 Vdc when
using 400 mcm conductors at 65°C. It employs one Form X (SPST-NO-DM) main
contact and can interrupt up to 2,000 A @ 320 Vdc. Contact voltage rating
is
12-900 Vdc. The KILOVAC LEV200 contactor is priced at $42.05 at the 100
piece quantity level. Lead times are typically two to four weeks."
I can't find anyone who deals these in small quantity :-(
I wonder what the 1 each price would be.
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--- Begin Message ---
Folks - remember that this is the electric vehicle discussion list, not
the hybrid vehicle discussion list.
Please take this thread somewhere else...
Ralph
Ken Trough writes:
>
> > I think that the byproducts of pure combustion are only CO2 and H2O.
> > And if it is true what John alludes to, that IC engines can be made to
> > run with near perfect combustion then all the arguments about emissions
> > becomes moot.
>
> Not at all. The issue is the carbon emissions and their contribution to
> the global warming crisis.
>
> -Ken Trough
> V is for Voltage
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
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--- Begin Message ---
"Jim Seibert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
"I've come to the realization, that despite my best intentions, I've been
slowly murdering my first pack. (14x8V trojans). I've reached about 4000 miles,
with a daily commute of 30 miles to work (15 each way, no charge at work). Now,
my range is 30 miles best case, and I can tell, it's just getting worse. I
figure if I could charge at work, I can extend the life of my batteries another
6 months or so. (had I done this a year ago, I probably would have several
years left)."
Jim, What kind of car do you have? What is the depth of discharge on your
commmute? Why do you think you've ruined your batteries? poor charger use?
too deep discharge? too much time partially discharged? poor battery care,
watering , equalizing etc?
I'm considering a small car conversion (Triumph Spit/GT6) with similar battery
count and type.
thanks Lance Smith Nor Cal
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cor,
I believe we're in complete agreement. We can't trust what GM says,
and what they say sounds fishy anyway.
I just don't feel qualified to hold an opinion - I'm too ignorant, and
I'm biased.
I provided a link to the article because you wanted to read some
evidence that the Prius is a money-loser for Toyota. Well, there you
go. It's not very good evidence, but it's what I had available.
Later,
Doug
On Feb 4, 2006, at 12:22 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Doug,
I have no doubt that American engineers can be as qualified as
their Japanese collegues, but that does not mean that you will
get the whole story from the "chop shop".
Every major manufacturer, does not matter if it's cars or other
product, has some engineers take the latest competitor product
apart to learn what they did and how to position themselves
against the competition.
Even if the chop shop found out exactly how GM could be profitable
with Hybrid technology, even then its up to the GM management to
decide if they go Hybrid or Hydrogen.
If they see more money or less risk (due to their years of lag
with Hybrids) when going the Hydrogen route, even if everyone
can make the balance on a napkin that it is not energy efficient
and will not be anything substantial for years to come, still the
management can have their own reasons to give direction to go the
other route.
In such a case you won't hear from GM's chop shop that the Hybrid
makes sense and GM should better reconsider.
When minds are made up, truth is out the window.
OK, one last point to consider:
The GM chop shop was pointing out in great detail how many moving
parts there apparently were in the Prius drivetrain.
Did you also hear them mention that going Hybrid deletes so many
moving parts that so often wear out and cause costly repairs,
such as alternator, starter motor, gearbox, clutch....?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:43 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: GM analysis of Prius, was: Hybrid efficiency
On Feb 3, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Chris wrote:
I also know that Toyota has been losing money on the Prius hand over
fist.
Can you please provide some evidence of that?
<snip>
If you have new info about the Prius, I like to read it.
The current issue of Wired Magazine has an article about GM's "chop
shop", where they tear down competitor's vehicles and figure out how
much they cost to make. GM's conclusion on the Prius is that there's
no way that Toyota is making money on it. They think it's an attempt
to make Toyota look technologically sophisticated and green.
<http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html>
Lots of interesting info in there - if you want to believe it. IMHO,
just because GM can't figure out how to make money building Priuses
doesn't mean that Toyota can't. The article also says that GM gave up
on making hybrids and decided to concentrate on fuel cells after the
Prius teardowns. That's a red flag to me, since I have a real hard
time believing that fuel cells will ever make automotive sense from an
energy or environmental standpoint. Maybe they're slandering the Prius
as another excuse for continuing the hydrogen boondoggle.
Then again, what do I know?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:34:09 -0800, John Wayland
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello to All,
>
>I can't resist responding to John...
>
>Neon John wrote:
>
>>I also know because I've seen the efforts, that any of the auto makers
>>could match whatever economy is being achieved with hybrids if and
>>when the customer becomes willing to accept a different driving
>>experience and butt-ugly styling optimized for aerodynamics.
>>Specifically, an economy-optimized CVT.
>
>John...ever hear of the Insight CVT? Better yet, ever driven one? I
>thought so.....your answer was no, correct? Your economy optimized CVT
>has been around since 2001...you need to get up to speed! Yes, a
>conventional ICE can get pretty good acceleration and
>better-than-average mpg hooked up the CVT. However, take the same engine
>but modify it to be a cleaner burning Atkinson cycle type, or a fume
>sniffing lean burn type, then include the electric side of the hybrid
>equation, and you'll get far higher mpg and far more acceptable
>acceleration. This is something Toyota and Honda have already figured
>out...why is it so hard for you to get? Oh, I remember now...using your
>own words...you just don't get it.
They sold how many dozen of those cars, remind me again? I just can't
seem to recall that oddity being a sales hit. Reference what I said
above about an odd driving experience and butt-ugly styling. I'm sure
you like your Insight but you're an odd-ball. At least you could be
honest enough to acknowledge that.
>Uh John....how's a car that can really deliver 90+ mph a gimmick? My
>Insight gets 65-68 mpg in town and 75-80 mpg on the freeway when I'm not
>even trying to get super mileage and am just 'driving' the car. It gets
>even better when I do 'try' to squeeze the most out of it, usually above
>90 mpg at 57-62 mph! On 400 mile round trips between Portland and
>Seattle, I routinely get mid 80 mpg returns.
Yeah, a gimmick. One of the oddest cars made in recent years with
ugliness second only to maybe an Aztec. the fact is, there was about
as much interest in the marketplace for that car as there is for BEVs.
As intolerable an idea as it may be to you car company hating people,
they'll build most anything that people might buy. Witness said Aztec
and a wide variety of butt-ugly sh*tboxes from most of the mfrs. What
they will NOT do is build products that they're sure won't sell.
I hate to be forced into the apparent position of defending car
companies because I'm not a cheerleader for 'em, particularly US mfrs.
They make plenty of mistakes and outright blunders. GM's dropping the
B-body (Caprice/Impala/9C1) line in favor of more SUVs, for example.
They basically handed the full size car market to Ford and the Clown
Dick. But I try to be critical from a position of knowledge.
Unfortunately, that doesn't burden you car company haters. This
thread has been a classic example.
Well, enough. This is way off-charter and I apologize for
participating in this thread. It's just that sometimes when the BS
gets too deep, one has to start shoveling.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I'll be there.
Ralph
John Wayland writes:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> This Sunday, Feb. 8th, we are having another one of our fun electric
> breakfasts here in Portland at the Village Inn restaurant at 102nd &
> S.E. Stark St. at 9:00 AM. All friends and EVers are invited to pull up
> a chair, stuff their face, and enjoy the rowdy noise at our table.
> Notable EVers that I know will be there so far, are Father Time, Rod
> Wilde, Tim Brehm, Jim and Matt Husted, and yours truly. Rudman usually
> can't resist the temptation, and Marko Mongillo might make it, too.
> Hopefully, Victor can bring his ACRX and Ralph Merwin can show up in his
> immaculate electric Prism. Tim and I will be driving White Zombie and
> Blue Meanie, so local EVers, drive electric if you can.
>
> See Ya.......John Wayland
>
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After the wining weekend we had last week I am making a change.I have reduced
the rim size(width) with my new goodyear slicks in hopes of more tire height
change at the end of the track.This should help the mph#s.Another slight
change to the nose of the car,its now truck spray on bed black nose to just
behind
the front tires.This will make the car blend in with the track at the finish
line thus making it hard to judge the finish line.Hopefully a better bracket
car.The CE will race at Speedworld outside of Phoenix from 8am till I get 10
passes in.There is a small gambler race that I will not enter.I am setting the
car up tommorow for the following 2 weekends.NHRAs summit series#2 race and the
ADRA series#2 race both of wich being held at Speedworld.
Dennis Berube
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