EV Digest 5162
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Aircraft Gen. Motor WAS Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) roadside EV repair/look out for this
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be a reality
in 2006?
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be a reality
in 2006?
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be a reality
in 2006?
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be a reality
in 2006?
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be a reality
in 2006?
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be a reality
in 2006?
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be a
reality in 2006?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Marathon series by GNB division of Exide?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Riding the White Zombie and other EVents (long)
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:08 AM 2/8/2006, you wrote:
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:34:52 -0800, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Maybe. The old switch controllers were a slate panel, with brass bolts
>for contacts. Each bolt had a silver dime-size piece of metal brazed to
>it. These contacts were bridged by a sliding contact that rotated over
>them with a big arm. Pretty crude, simple, and robust!
>
>I would avoid using fiberglass, as it burns!
I've been thinking about contact controllers. For a zillion years,
drum-type contact controllers were used to control multi-hundred HP
motors in industry. It seems to me like a small contact controller
hooked to the accelerator pedal would fit nicely in an EV.
Rather then a drum, I was thinking two plates. One plate with two contacts
for each battery, the second plate with four sets of contacts each of which
would when alined with the contacts on the other plate connect the
batteries in different series parallel combinations.
These plates would be located right on the battery box to minimize the
length of wire between the batteries and the controller.
The flat fiberglass plate is inexpensive and machining would be easier then
a drum form.
The plate would be moved by a linkage to the throttle lever which on this
tractor is a vertical lever about 10" tall you push forward to go
faster. Thinking about adding a two stage button on the lever, first stage
drops out a contactor putting a series resistor in the circuit. The second
stage would drop out a second contactor breaking the circuit. Some kind of
interlock could be made so that the plates could not be shifted without the
button being pushed.
I will also need a 24 or 36 volt battery to run the lights, hydraulic pump,
the cooling blower for the motor, and the motor field. Motor field control
may be on a separate lever or may be worked into the throttle control if I
can find a way to do it smoothly.
For broadband users, here is a fascinating video that shows a closeup
of a drum controller at about 10:12 into the flic. Unfortunately the
Quicktime server is down so the smallest file available is 100mb.
This is a fascinating film made immediately post-war to inform
returning GIs about opportunities in the electrical field. Many
electrician trade schools sprung up to serve these GIs. Several
scenes in this film are shot at trade schools. The Coyne Electrical
Institute of Chicago was one of the best. If you ever find a set of
encyclopedias from this school, grab 'em. A wealth of knowledge and
very interesting photos.
I don't know if drum controllers are even made anymore but one would
be simple to make for anyone with a lathe or access to one. The old
ones used pressed asbestos for the dielectric parts. Unfortunately
not available anymore but the red electrical fiberglass material will
work just as well.
Here is what I had in mind.
http://www.mcmaster.com/ Part number 8549K56.
A drum controller could potentially provide very smooth control with
little complication and almost nothing to go wrong. One of you types
who is chomping at the bits to make and sell something to the
community ought to jump on this and run with it. A whole drum
controller could probably be built and sold for the cost of only a
couple of high capacity contactors.
<< snip info on some cool videos >>
John
http://www.open-video.org/details.php?videoid=3754 10:12
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The key point was, the present version of the Current Eliminator, as it
exists at this very moment, couldn't run 8.8. Changes have been made since
that day in Sacramento. It is still 100% OK to say that the Current
Eliminator holds the World Record, however.
I have no doubt in my mind that with a few additional changes, the Current
Eliminator will see the 7's.
Changes and modifications are what racing is all about. All the
top vehicles in racing are prototypes under development. Not static display
historical museum pieces.
At 06:05 AM 2/9/2006, you wrote:
In a message dated 2/8/06 11:10:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< What about the Current Eliminator? Dennis has changed the body,
frame, motor, etc. probably more than once. From my perspective (as a
fellow racer) it always has been, and always will be the Current
Eliminator. It is his dragster, so it is what he chooses to call it. The
sign on his trailer says that the vehicle inside is the quickest EV in the
world. I agree with him 100%. He has made many improvements. That is OK. It
is what racers are supposed to do >>
***** The Current Eliminator has the original CAGE to this date as it had in
1992,but has been back and front halfed 3 times.Each time the frame was
changed the CE became CE 2 CE 3, 4-And where it is today CE5.There is no
longer a
sign on the side of my trailer.It was as CE5 that she ran 8s MANY times.It
will
still be the CE5 when it WILL run 7s this year. Dennis
Berube happy to be the outlaw
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two important lessons I learned at BBB , and will share in hopes that others
won't do what I did. With the last minite repairs I ended up bringing along
a pile of plugs so I could set up the charger in one truck to charge the
other and figured I'd wire up stuff there. After all the events wore over
I'm hooking up the PFC 50 to take power from the race truck and pump it into
the work truck for the 55 mile tow home. I check the polarity , check it
again. Then something makes me check it a third time , that little voice in
the back . Some gut feeling , as 2 times is my usual . As soon as I plugged
it in their was a bad sound and no light for the PFC >;( . Some how the
polarity was wrong , and I checked it 3 times. A few days later when I'm
empting the bucket of stuff I find the meter and the black com plug is in
the red Volt hole, Red wire in common. Lucky for me all that happened to
the charger was a blown fuse, but now checking to see that the test leads
are in the right holes is first. The other was some fine metal filings that
the Albright sw200 magnatic blow outs had picked up when I was doing all the
cutting . When I was setting up the race truck and testing it out with a low
12v SLI battery the contactor opened under somewhat of a load and I believe
the arc sucked up these metal filings that where on the magnets and put the
"slag" on the points of the contactor. The contactor still worked but with
the welding slag on the contacts they didn't close right and under heavy
load the hair ball was seeing a Hi contactor resistance and gave an error. I
didn't find this till the day before BBB.
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The concept that is beyond your intellectual ability to grasp is that the
time slip goes with the particular vehicle that it was handed to at the end
of the run on the day it made the run. What part of this do you not
understand? All of your attempts at misdirection will not change the truth.
That time slip does not go with that bike. Plain and simple fact. To say
otherwise is a blatant lie.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
It is important to note that after the first few months of its existence,
the Killacycle has always been the worlds fastest (and quickest) electric
drag bike. Every version has been faster and quicker than any other drag
bike.
The listing on Dragtimes directs you to the KillaCycle website.
The picture is of the present version of the bike. Folks can look at the
website and learn all about the history of the bike. I have no secrets.
At 12:58 AM 2/8/2006, you wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The White Zombie has a completely different drive package than it did
when it started racing. It is still the White Zombie
That's because it uses the same frame/body as it did before. This is
clearly an evolved design of the same vehicle. If John took Blue Meanie
and painted it white and put his motors into it, Blue Meanie would not
become White Zombie. It would be a different vehicle, IMO.
What about the Current Eliminator? Dennis has changed the body,
frame, motor, etc. probably more than once. From my perspective (as a
fellow racer) it always has been, and always will be the Current
Eliminator. It is his dragster, so it is what he chooses to call it. The
sign on his trailer says that the vehicle inside is the quickest EV in the
world. I agree with him 100%. He has made many improvements. That is OK.
It is what racers are supposed to do.
It is very common in racing to have more than one car by the same
name, sometimes in the same race series! When one breaks, you swap it for
the back-up.
A good example is the GM Sunracer. (Perhaps you are too young to
remember that far back in electric racing.) There were two of them.
Since you don't actually race, you might not realize that race
cars continually change. You upgrade parts all the time. The idea is to
make it go faster. ;^)
The KillaCycle has the SAME drive package as it did the first day it
raced. Components have been upgraded, the body has changed a few times,
the frame has been redone, I played with a different name for awhile,
but it is still the KillaCycle.
Actually, a totally different frame and a totally different body mean you
are talking about a totally different vehicle. The "drive package" should
consist of the motor, controller and battery pack, yet I believe the
controller and the battery pack are different from when the record was
set. The motor seems to be the only significant component that had
anything to do with setting the record you are now claiming for the new
cycle.
Without the battery pack (which you change all the time) the bike
weighs about 350 pounds. Of this, about 200 pounds of identical "stuff"
has gone down the track for every single run the bike has ever made.
I still own all the parts I have swapped out over the years. How
about if I put it all in a pile next to the bike, take a picture, and then
post it to Dragtimes as the record holding vehicle?
How about if I put the yellow body back on? Maybe if I painted the
present body yellow? I bought all the bike bodies from AeroTech. They can
interchange. If I put the new body on the old frame and took a picture and
called it the record holder, would that be OK?
By the way, only a fraction of the bike was ever Kawasaki. The
front rim, forks, and about 1/3 of the frame came from the Kawasaki
factory. The rest of the bike was custom and after market parts.
The new cycle, regardless of what you name it, is not the record holder,
yet you are representing it as such. This is dishonest. Why not simply
identify the older vehicle as the record holder and present the new one
without lying about records it does not hold?
Maybe people don't really care about you misrepresenting NEDRA records and
race vehicles...
Let's talk about misrepresentations.
On the TV show, Going Postal was a conversion from an ICE van.
They clearly showed a gasoline engine coming out of the front on a hoist,
and another shot of the gas tank coming out from under the back. However,
it holds a NEDRA record for a PRODUCTION electric vehicle, NOT a
conversion vehicle.
This is because they lied to the public during the show. The van
was electric from the factory. This is a very big misrepresentation,
wouldn't you say?
Is Roderick Wilde really the name of the person that owns Going
Postal? (Or is there another misrepresentation involved?)
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Say you had a pack of the A123 batteries. On normal home service, how fast
could you charge it?
-Mike
On 2/9/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> That may be OK for a power tool. We already discussed this.
> Recharging in even 20 kWh in 5 min means few thousands amps
> of battery current. Good luck to find suitable charger
> (likely bigger than your car) and most importantly -
> upgrade your mains - you charge at the rate 10-15 average houses
> consume.
>
> But I agree, the battery itself is interesting in that respect.
>
> Victor
>
> David Dymaxion wrote:
> > A123 claims a 100C discharge rate (yes, one hundred!), and a 5 minute
> > recharge.
> >
> > --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>Shawn,
> >>
> >>If you open any modern laptop's battery pack you will see that
> >>its 18650 cells made in millions today, have typically 2.2Ah
> >>capacity at 3.6V nominal (792Wh).
> >>
> >>A123 system's 26650 are 1.5 times as large and possess
> >>3.3V*2.3Ah=759Wh.
> >>
> >>What exactly is revolutionary about A123's product?
> >>
> >>Victor
> >>
> >>
> >>Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> >>...
> >>
> >>>A123 Systems' first product, which will be available through
> >>>distribution in late 2006, will be a cylindrical 26650 form
> >>
> >>factor
> >>
> >>>cell (26 mm diameter, 65 mm length).
> >>>
> >>>Its basic specification is 3.3 V nominal (3.6V OCV) & 2.3 Ah
> >>
> >>capacity.
> >>
> >>>We will put you in our data base and will get you more
> >>
> >>information as
> >>
> >>>we are in a position to support your request.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As Dennis stated, he ALWAYS changed the name of the vehicle when he changed
the frame and his time slips have ALWAYS gone with the version that set the
record. Dennis has been very honest in his reporting. He has never once
tried to apply a time slip from a different version of his dragster. That is
what this is all about, honesty and integrity which you fail to see as
having any value.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 6:48 AM
Subject: Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
The key point was, the present version of the Current Eliminator, as it
exists at this very moment, couldn't run 8.8. Changes have been made
since that day in Sacramento. It is still 100% OK to say that the Current
Eliminator holds the World Record, however.
I have no doubt in my mind that with a few additional changes, the Current
Eliminator will see the 7's.
Changes and modifications are what racing is all about. All the
top vehicles in racing are prototypes under development. Not static
display historical museum pieces.
At 06:05 AM 2/9/2006, you wrote:
In a message dated 2/8/06 11:10:09 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< What about the Current Eliminator? Dennis has changed the body,
frame, motor, etc. probably more than once. From my perspective (as a
fellow racer) it always has been, and always will be the Current
Eliminator. It is his dragster, so it is what he chooses to call it. The
sign on his trailer says that the vehicle inside is the quickest EV in
the
world. I agree with him 100%. He has made many improvements. That is OK.
It
is what racers are supposed to do >>
***** The Current Eliminator has the original CAGE to this date as it had
in
1992,but has been back and front halfed 3 times.Each time the frame was
changed the CE became CE 2 CE 3, 4-And where it is today CE5.There is no
longer a
sign on the side of my trailer.It was as CE5 that she ran 8s MANY times.It
will
still be the CE5 when it WILL run 7s this year. Dennis
Berube happy to be the outlaw
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.3/254 - Release Date: 2/8/2006
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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.3/254 - Release Date: 2/8/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But if I had two packs, the first charged over a day (or better yet
night when rates are lower), used that for a dump pack to the pack in
the car. The thousands of amps from the mains problem goes away....
Lynn
See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:46 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be
a reality in 2006?
Say you had a pack of the A123 batteries. On normal home service, how
fast could you charge it?
-Mike
On 2/9/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> That may be OK for a power tool. We already discussed this.
> Recharging in even 20 kWh in 5 min means few thousands amps of battery
> current. Good luck to find suitable charger (likely bigger than your
> car) and most importantly - upgrade your mains - you charge at the
> rate 10-15 average houses consume.
>
> But I agree, the battery itself is interesting in that respect.
>
> Victor
>
> David Dymaxion wrote:
> > A123 claims a 100C discharge rate (yes, one hundred!), and a 5
> > minute recharge.
> >
> > --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>Shawn,
> >>
> >>If you open any modern laptop's battery pack you will see that its
> >>18650 cells made in millions today, have typically 2.2Ah capacity at
> >>3.6V nominal (792Wh).
> >>
> >>A123 system's 26650 are 1.5 times as large and possess
> >>3.3V*2.3Ah=759Wh.
> >>
> >>What exactly is revolutionary about A123's product?
> >>
> >>Victor
> >>
> >>
> >>Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> >>...
> >>
> >>>A123 Systems' first product, which will be available through
> >>>distribution in late 2006, will be a cylindrical 26650 form
> >>
> >>factor
> >>
> >>>cell (26 mm diameter, 65 mm length).
> >>>
> >>>Its basic specification is 3.3 V nominal (3.6V OCV) & 2.3 Ah
> >>
> >>capacity.
> >>
> >>>We will put you in our data base and will get you more
> >>
> >>information as
> >>
> >>>we are in a position to support your request.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the key point is you have posted a timeslip on dragtimes.com for one
bike, and then posted a picture and listed components for a version of the
bike that did not earn that timeslip.
No one is saying that the killacycle that earned the timeslip isn't the
record holder. What they are saying is that you are showing and describing
to the dragtimes community a bike that did not earn that timeslip. IE: You
should show a picture and list components on dragtimes.com that reflect the
setup that earned the timeslip, not what that bike has evolved into.
It doesn't matter if you want to call it the same bike, or other people want
to call it a different bike. What does matter is that the components and
pictures shown on dragtimes.com match those of the bike WHEN it earned the
timeslip.
-Mike
On 2/9/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The key point was, the present version of the Current Eliminator, as it
> exists at this very moment, couldn't run 8.8. Changes have been made
> since
> that day in Sacramento. It is still 100% OK to say that the Current
> Eliminator holds the World Record, however.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True, but I think the issue of having a short charge time is that it speaks
to the ability to go on long trips. That is, to be able to "fill up" at a
gas/charge station. Your scheme wouldn't help there.
-Mike
On 2/9/06, Adams, Lynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> But if I had two packs, the first charged over a day (or better yet
> night when rates are lower), used that for a dump pack to the pack in
> the car. The thousands of amps from the mains problem goes away....
>
>
> Lynn
>
> See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Ellis
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:46 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be
> a reality in 2006?
>
> Say you had a pack of the A123 batteries. On normal home service, how
> fast could you charge it?
>
> -Mike
>
>
> On 2/9/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > That may be OK for a power tool. We already discussed this.
> > Recharging in even 20 kWh in 5 min means few thousands amps of battery
>
> > current. Good luck to find suitable charger (likely bigger than your
> > car) and most importantly - upgrade your mains - you charge at the
> > rate 10-15 average houses consume.
> >
> > But I agree, the battery itself is interesting in that respect.
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > David Dymaxion wrote:
> > > A123 claims a 100C discharge rate (yes, one hundred!), and a 5
> > > minute recharge.
> > >
> > > --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >>Shawn,
> > >>
> > >>If you open any modern laptop's battery pack you will see that its
> > >>18650 cells made in millions today, have typically 2.2Ah capacity at
>
> > >>3.6V nominal (792Wh).
> > >>
> > >>A123 system's 26650 are 1.5 times as large and possess
> > >>3.3V*2.3Ah=759Wh.
> > >>
> > >>What exactly is revolutionary about A123's product?
> > >>
> > >>Victor
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> > >>...
> > >>
> > >>>A123 Systems' first product, which will be available through
> > >>>distribution in late 2006, will be a cylindrical 26650 form
> > >>
> > >>factor
> > >>
> > >>>cell (26 mm diameter, 65 mm length).
> > >>>
> > >>>Its basic specification is 3.3 V nominal (3.6V OCV) & 2.3 Ah
> > >>
> > >>capacity.
> > >>
> > >>>We will put you in our data base and will get you more
> > >>
> > >>information as
> > >>
> > >>>we are in a position to support your request.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure it would, you just need the distribution system of dump packs at
filling stations across the country... Over a 24 hour period even home
250A service could provide over a million watts (6457 miles for my car)
or at 400 miles per fill-up, about the same as 16 tanks of gas. With
industrial power feeds, the scale could be ramped up to a commercially
reasonable level. But then I'd dreaming again.
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 9:18 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be
a reality in 2006?
True, but I think the issue of having a short charge time is that it
speaks to the ability to go on long trips. That is, to be able to "fill
up" at a gas/charge station. Your scheme wouldn't help there.
-Mike
On 2/9/06, Adams, Lynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> But if I had two packs, the first charged over a day (or better yet
> night when rates are lower), used that for a dump pack to the pack in
> the car. The thousands of amps from the mains problem goes away....
>
>
> Lynn
>
> See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Mike Ellis
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:46 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li
> be a reality in 2006?
>
> Say you had a pack of the A123 batteries. On normal home service, how
> fast could you charge it?
>
> -Mike
>
>
> On 2/9/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > That may be OK for a power tool. We already discussed this.
> > Recharging in even 20 kWh in 5 min means few thousands amps of
> > battery
>
> > current. Good luck to find suitable charger (likely bigger than your
> > car) and most importantly - upgrade your mains - you charge at the
> > rate 10-15 average houses consume.
> >
> > But I agree, the battery itself is interesting in that respect.
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > David Dymaxion wrote:
> > > A123 claims a 100C discharge rate (yes, one hundred!), and a 5
> > > minute recharge.
> > >
> > > --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >>Shawn,
> > >>
> > >>If you open any modern laptop's battery pack you will see that its
> > >>18650 cells made in millions today, have typically 2.2Ah capacity
> > >>at
>
> > >>3.6V nominal (792Wh).
> > >>
> > >>A123 system's 26650 are 1.5 times as large and possess
> > >>3.3V*2.3Ah=759Wh.
> > >>
> > >>What exactly is revolutionary about A123's product?
> > >>
> > >>Victor
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> > >>...
> > >>
> > >>>A123 Systems' first product, which will be available through
> > >>>distribution in late 2006, will be a cylindrical 26650 form
> > >>
> > >>factor
> > >>
> > >>>cell (26 mm diameter, 65 mm length).
> > >>>
> > >>>Its basic specification is 3.3 V nominal (3.6V OCV) & 2.3 Ah
> > >>
> > >>capacity.
> > >>
> > >>>We will put you in our data base and will get you more
> > >>
> > >>information as
> > >>
> > >>>we are in a position to support your request.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2/7/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A123 system's 26650 are 1.5 times as large and possess
> 3.3V*2.3Ah=759Wh.
>
> What exactly is revolutionary about A123's product?
Yep they need to scale it up before it gets very interesting for us.
Apparently the Milwaukee V28 batteries are 3 amp-hour so that's in the
same ballpark, and maybe what they are trying to compete with.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point!
-Mike
On 2/9/06, Adams, Lynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sure it would, you just need the distribution system of dump packs at
> filling stations across the country... Over a 24 hour period even home
> 250A service could provide over a million watts (6457 miles for my car)
> or at 400 miles per fill-up, about the same as 16 tanks of gas. With
> industrial power feeds, the scale could be ramped up to a commercially
> reasonable level. But then I'd dreaming again.
>
> Lynn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Ellis
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 9:18 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be
> a reality in 2006?
>
> True, but I think the issue of having a short charge time is that it
> speaks to the ability to go on long trips. That is, to be able to "fill
> up" at a gas/charge station. Your scheme wouldn't help there.
>
> -Mike
>
>
> On 2/9/06, Adams, Lynn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > But if I had two packs, the first charged over a day (or better yet
> > night when rates are lower), used that for a dump pack to the pack in
> > the car. The thousands of amps from the mains problem goes away....
> >
> >
> > Lynn
> >
> > See my 100% electric car at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf Of Mike Ellis
> > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:46 AM
> > To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> > Subject: Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li
> > be a reality in 2006?
> >
> > Say you had a pack of the A123 batteries. On normal home service, how
> > fast could you charge it?
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> >
> > On 2/9/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > That may be OK for a power tool. We already discussed this.
> > > Recharging in even 20 kWh in 5 min means few thousands amps of
> > > battery
> >
> > > current. Good luck to find suitable charger (likely bigger than your
> > > car) and most importantly - upgrade your mains - you charge at the
> > > rate 10-15 average houses consume.
> > >
> > > But I agree, the battery itself is interesting in that respect.
> > >
> > > Victor
> > >
> > > David Dymaxion wrote:
> > > > A123 claims a 100C discharge rate (yes, one hundred!), and a 5
> > > > minute recharge.
> > > >
> > > > --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>Shawn,
> > > >>
> > > >>If you open any modern laptop's battery pack you will see that its
>
> > > >>18650 cells made in millions today, have typically 2.2Ah capacity
> > > >>at
> >
> > > >>3.6V nominal (792Wh).
> > > >>
> > > >>A123 system's 26650 are 1.5 times as large and possess
> > > >>3.3V*2.3Ah=759Wh.
> > > >>
> > > >>What exactly is revolutionary about A123's product?
> > > >>
> > > >>Victor
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> > > >>...
> > > >>
> > > >>>A123 Systems' first product, which will be available through
> > > >>>distribution in late 2006, will be a cylindrical 26650 form
> > > >>
> > > >>factor
> > > >>
> > > >>>cell (26 mm diameter, 65 mm length).
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Its basic specification is 3.3 V nominal (3.6V OCV) & 2.3 Ah
> > > >>
> > > >>capacity.
> > > >>
> > > >>>We will put you in our data base and will get you more
> > > >>
> > > >>information as
> > > >>
> > > >>>we are in a position to support your request.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Numbers, numbers, numbers.
How large a pack do you want to use?
How fat is your service? How much do you want
to have left for your house to run while charging?
Most houses today are wired with 200A service,
though my house has 100A as there is no airco,
no electric heating and its only a 3-bedroom.
But just for kicks let's say you have 200A and
can limit the use of your house below 50A, so
150A is usable for charging.
At 240V this amounts to 36kW
Now let's see a battery pack, with a typical
range of at least 50 miles and 200Wh per mile
you need more than 10kW, for a DC system you
could take 40 battery strings parallel for 92Ah
and 50 cells per string for 165V, an AC system
could use the same amount of cells but 20 in
parallel for 46Ah and 100 series for 330V.
That gives you roughly 15kWh and you can charge
it in 15kWh/36kW = 5/12 h = 25 minutes.
(I am ignoring losses for simplicity)
Double your range by doubling the cell count
and you also double the charge time (and the
money invested)
I think that 25 min is a very reasonable time
between arriving somewhere with an empty pack
and going again with a full pack.
Even if you have just 10 min, you can recharge
a 60% pack to full.
Who likes to solder 2,000 cells together?
Can these cells be paralleled/serialized
without BMS or does such a BMS need to check
all 2,000 cells?
The charge current for the DC pack is 36kW/165V
equals 218 Amp (5.5A per string)
NOTE that the 100C charging would mean you can
charge it in under 1 min from empty to full
(1/100 hour = 36 seconds)
That requires a current of 230A per string,
9200A for a pack of 40 parallel, when using
50 cells in series results in a power of
9200A x 165V = 1518kW.
This can only be achieved with a dump pack,
unless you have a direct feed to a power plant
delivering over 1.5MW dedicated for you.
It sounds interesting for racing applications
and when electrics do get the support of a
distributed net of dump chargers in future.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 7:46 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Battery Manu. looking for applications: was Re: Will Li be
a reality in 2006?
Say you had a pack of the A123 batteries. On normal home service, how fast
could you charge it?
-Mike
On 2/9/06, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> That may be OK for a power tool. We already discussed this.
> Recharging in even 20 kWh in 5 min means few thousands amps
> of battery current. Good luck to find suitable charger
> (likely bigger than your car) and most importantly -
> upgrade your mains - you charge at the rate 10-15 average houses
> consume.
>
> But I agree, the battery itself is interesting in that respect.
>
> Victor
>
> David Dymaxion wrote:
> > A123 claims a 100C discharge rate (yes, one hundred!), and a 5 minute
> > recharge.
> >
> > --- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>Shawn,
> >>
> >>If you open any modern laptop's battery pack you will see that
> >>its 18650 cells made in millions today, have typically 2.2Ah
> >>capacity at 3.6V nominal (792Wh).
> >>
> >>A123 system's 26650 are 1.5 times as large and possess
> >>3.3V*2.3Ah=759Wh.
> >>
> >>What exactly is revolutionary about A123's product?
> >>
> >>Victor
> >>
> >>
> >>Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> >>...
> >>
> >>>A123 Systems' first product, which will be available through
> >>>distribution in late 2006, will be a cylindrical 26650 form
> >>
> >>factor
> >>
> >>>cell (26 mm diameter, 65 mm length).
> >>>
> >>>Its basic specification is 3.3 V nominal (3.6V OCV) & 2.3 Ah
> >>
> >>capacity.
> >>
> >>>We will put you in our data base and will get you more
> >>
> >>information as
> >>
> >>>we are in a position to support your request.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 07:52:44 -0800, "Roderick Wilde"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>As Dennis stated, he ALWAYS changed the name of the vehicle when he changed
>the frame and his time slips have ALWAYS gone with the version that set the
>record. Dennis has been very honest in his reporting. He has never once
>tried to apply a time slip from a different version of his dragster. That is
>what this is all about, honesty and integrity which you fail to see as
>having any value.
I'm not sure what this is all about other than a couple of hotheads
going at each other. In other forms of racing that I've been involved
in, the record goes to the DRIVER in the class set by the vehicle. The
vehicle name is usually mentioned but it doesn't hold the record, the
driver does.
I can remember during John Force's engine-a-run days when he'd go
through 3 or 4 cars in one event, blowing the body off about every
other run. He had two transporters full of assembled cars. Nobody
argued about to whom his records belonged, they belonged to him.
The titles I won motocrossing went to me and not my bike. The engine
size set the class I ran in but the only mention of the bike was a
single line entry on the win board, "honda", "yamaha", etc. In
motocrossing, I can't recall anyone even bothering with naming his
bike.
Bill's records belong to him (when he was riding) and not the bike(s).
It's nice that NEDRA keeps track of the names of his bikes but they
really don't have any bearing on the records.
Lastly, I just have to ponder why anyone would let Ken Trough draw
himself into a fight. It seems that Ken's not happy unless he has
something stirred and an adversary environment is his native
environment. Why join him? Like mud-wrestling a pig - win or lose,
the pig'll have the better of it. It is unfortunate that NEDRA is
shackled with his reputation. That certainly soils NEDRA's image to
outsiders.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 02:18:44 -0800 (PST), Mark Freidberg
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>How would these batteries fare in a street EV application?
>
>
> http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006020723155323&item=11-3052&catname=electric
Not very well. They're designed for very long life on float service
and a very limited number of discharges. I imagine the discharge rate
is also limited, though I haven't looked up the data sheet. These
would be great for your UPS or off-grid house but not so hot for EVs.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
<Then, for the rest of the run, the AWD car has about a 10%
weight penalty,
While this might be true for ICE cars, it is not necessarily true for a two
motor electric car. If we are running two motors anyway, connecting them
directly to the front and rear diff does not cost any weight.
Of course, for drag racing if you are doing a wheelie, it would not help to
have half your power going to the airborne wheels.
it was tough
to justify AWD even for racing, except for low speed (autocross) or
slippery surfaces. RWD turns out to be a pretty good compromise, and
there are good reasons why most paved-surface racecars are RWD.
Umm, you are always traction limited when road racing (i.e. it is always a
slippery surface)- or you are not pushing the car hard enough. Being able to
accelerate with all four wheels is usually an advantage. Sanctioning
organization tend to required four wheel drive cars to run with a weight
penalty that nullifies the advantage to keep a good mix of cars. In a more
open rules format like German Touring Car a few years back, all the teams
were running four wheel drive.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In your logic Bill holds absolutely no records as he is not the driver.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Killacycle nearly in the top 10
On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 07:52:44 -0800, "Roderick Wilde"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
As Dennis stated, he ALWAYS changed the name of the vehicle when he
changed
the frame and his time slips have ALWAYS gone with the version that set
the
record. Dennis has been very honest in his reporting. He has never once
tried to apply a time slip from a different version of his dragster. That
is
what this is all about, honesty and integrity which you fail to see as
having any value.
I'm not sure what this is all about other than a couple of hotheads
going at each other. In other forms of racing that I've been involved
in, the record goes to the DRIVER in the class set by the vehicle. The
vehicle name is usually mentioned but it doesn't hold the record, the
driver does.
I can remember during John Force's engine-a-run days when he'd go
through 3 or 4 cars in one event, blowing the body off about every
other run. He had two transporters full of assembled cars. Nobody
argued about to whom his records belonged, they belonged to him.
The titles I won motocrossing went to me and not my bike. The engine
size set the class I ran in but the only mention of the bike was a
single line entry on the win board, "honda", "yamaha", etc. In
motocrossing, I can't recall anyone even bothering with naming his
bike.
Bill's records belong to him (when he was riding) and not the bike(s).
It's nice that NEDRA keeps track of the names of his bikes but they
really don't have any bearing on the records.
Lastly, I just have to ponder why anyone would let Ken Trough draw
himself into a fight. It seems that Ken's not happy unless he has
something stirred and an adversary environment is his native
environment. Why join him? Like mud-wrestling a pig - win or lose,
the pig'll have the better of it. It is unfortunate that NEDRA is
shackled with his reputation. That certainly soils NEDRA's image to
outsiders.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
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