EV Digest 5369
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: C asd I, WAS Monster Garage .. Riva country .. Reva .. already up and
runnin'
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Looking for a GEM Utility - Bay Area, CA
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Corvallis Jet EV $8k 4sale
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Corvallis Jet EV $8k 4sale
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Hybrid Generator.
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Milwaukee Tool Battery
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EV mass market, was: Monster Garage
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Genny
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: OT ramble, was: popular 'science'
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: GE 9 ' motors for EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: EV mass market,
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV mass market, was: Monster Garage
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Genny
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: More Plug-in Prius question
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Genny
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Who REALLY drives the Most Miles
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Monster Garage
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: GE 9 ' motors for EV
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: T-125 Equivalent Batteries
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Genny
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: T-125 Equivalent Batteries
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Battery & Charging conference
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
fyi Reva is selling as a commercail product already
8 kwhr of electricity is what is need to charge .. good for 90 km
okay kindof .. costs are cheaper than normal cars .. well .. almost !
running costs are absurdly low
good for mr. and mrs .. and 2 kids (not adults !) on the back seat
..peekay
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Chatted up the nice guy on
> India, he was from Bengalore, was very human, rather than a voice mail,
> charming accent. I asked him about his life and I guess things were slow,
so
> he could chat. Needless to say I got him to talk EV's. Had he heard of a
> Reva? "Yes, he sez, very good car. I want to buy one someday." I said that
> we can't import them here, Yet.People on line build EV's and you are
helping
> me to get hooked up with OTHER EV people. Told him about the List and he
> could sign on. We HAD one Indian fellow a few years back, but I think he
> dropped off? He was a college student that got a job with the Riva Co.?
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--- Begin Message ---
[IMHO: why?]
nevs discussion group has nevs for sale on it
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEVs/
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
http://portland.craigslist.org/car/150066460.html
Wonder what brand and capacity those black batteries are?
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
You can ask him, but a link on his website leads to Dyno batteries:
http://www.dynobattery.com/prod01.htm
So my guess is these are in his car.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 10:54 AM
To: evlist
Subject: Corvallis Jet EV $8k 4sale
http://portland.craigslist.org/car/150066460.html
Wonder what brand and capacity those black batteries are?
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gents,
Just back from another trip to our British partener facility. They have a
230 volt 5000 watt alternaltor that they sell for, well lets not go there,
but sounds almost exactly like what is needed for the hybrid idea. Did I say
it is DC (obvious to most) and that all it needs is an advanced regulator
modified to the desired Bulk, absorption and float charge levels, Wich I
also have access to. If we could fing a clean 15 horse motor I think we
would be there.
Mark Grasser
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
Can you get a price list for their current product offerings?
I think the price is the same as before. See
http://www.proev.com/P1Batt.htm.
Details on the latest cell specs are at
http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf
For more information, contact Dr Kim at:
Joon Kim, Ph. D.
Kokam America Inc.
5555 N. Campbell Ave.
Tucson, AZ 85718
1-520-529-1305 (office)
1-520-529-5534 (fax)
1-520-271-2422 (mobile)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.kokamamerica.com
Hope this helps.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's 84 Wh/kg. Not too shabby.
Kokam 143 Wh / kg <G>
http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf page 13
For comparison here's about the best that other chemistries can do :
lead-acid 35 Wh/kg
nicad 55 Wh/kg
NiMH 70 Wh/kg
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
Not really a fair comparison though. I think the 84 Wh/KG figure is
including the hard plastic tool kit case. I bet if you stripped them out
they would be a lot lighter. Serious amps too for a 3 amp-hr battery!
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
> These sorts of people are NOT going to EVER do
> anything any more technical than plug something
> in and click the remote.
That's it! We only need to add a remote to the EV
and everyone 'gets' it.
Serious, good that you took the next step and wrote
a letter to Wal*Mart. If you do not get a favorable
response, consider to offer $15 to $20 per night and
point out how infrastructure cost may be reduced by
using existing grants and possibly the remaining
costs could be shared with the local EV chapter - you
will need to make a move to start the action....
The local store manager may be a better point to get
started, then see if you can expand the move from
the one store to many.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 12:26 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:01:22 -0700, Jeff Shanab
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Instant evening demand, Whoops!
> MY ev charging pulls less than my AC by a factor of 3 to 6, my PFC has a
current control knob to boot. I have a computer that pulls more :-o
> The mom and pop who just get home from work with only 15 or 20% need a
bigger pack. This probably wont be a problem for the majority of the people
when Li-Poly becomes normal.
> I have run into this situation a couple of times because my pack is small
and I only use the 110V plug in the garage. 4 amps into the pack for 2 hours
and the regs start blinking.
Yabut yer a nerd and so am I. When I think about this kind of stuff I
try to picture my 85 year old mom or my brother, the techno-phobic
dentist. What would they do? They ain't gonna diddle with current
controls and stuff!
> These caractures you speak of are afraid of change. Our kids, Lee's best
kids. And the entire group of 20-28 year olds that I run into at school are
not. I did have those people at work but after 1000 miles and the posted
"last time I bought gas was feb 21st" those same people are now asking a lot
of questions.
Let me be scathing for a moment. I live in a world of room
temperature IQs, where the city government spends $2mil to put new
lights on the football field but doesn't have the money for the high
school students to have their own books to take home. A lot of folks
around here make Dumb'n'Dumber look like a Nobel prize ceremony. Like
the woman who came in my restaurant last week and ordered a stuffed
baked potato and french fries (oh, maybe 250 grams of carbs) and then
didn't want any BBQ sauce because it might have sugar and that was bad
for her "sugar problem". Cleveland's worse than anywhere I've lived
or worked but not by a lot. If you live in a technology-literate area
then you just can't imagine.... There, I feel a lot better now.
These sorts of people are NOT going to EVER do anything any more
technical than plug something in and click the remote. Even these
types will change and adapt new technology - look at the DVDs and DVRs
and digicams jumping off the shelves - if the technology is simple
enough AND the person perceives a benefit.
I just don't see this type of person going for the EV thing until it's
as simple as operating a TV, fairly inexpensive and offers him some
benefit that he doesn't have now. Not having to visit the gas station
is a huge benefit but not enough to offset the cost and limited range.
Yeah, I know the arguments about average trip length and all but that
doesn't matter. If you have a 30 mpg car and have a 10 mile trip,
would you leave out with only a gallon of gas in the tank? Especially
if you couldn't refuel along the route? Hell no! My 9C1 holds enough
gas for about 600 miles and gets good mileage for a full size car and
I can refuel on every street corner but I won't leave out on a trip
with any less than 1/4 tank - you just never know what might happen.
My gut tells me that a 300 mile range will be a benchmark for
acceptance. That would let me do up to 100 miles a day and still skip
a charge day if I forgot to plug in or it wasn't convenient. It's a
mental thing and not a time-and-distance thing.
I tend to own the best vehicle for the job which is why I have 5
vehicles insured while being single - unusual enough in itself - but I
would NOT have and EV with its currently limited range if I had to
spend $10 or $15k for one. I have maybe $2000 ($500 for the car, the
rest in upgrades) in my Citi which is approaching my limit. It's a
handy little car for zipping around town in good weather and for that
it's worth the money. But I have the 9C1 to fall back on for road
trips, the motor home for traveling, the GMC/Izuzu medium duty cube
truck for hauling stuff and the 68 Plymouth Fury for cruisn' :-) If I
had to part with one car, the EV would be the first to go because its
usefulness is so limited.
Again, I try to put myself in my mom's or my bro's shoes. Mom does
have a van for hauling stuff in addition to her Lincoln LS but she's
always griping about what the insurance is costing her. I suspect
that the van will go pretty soon since SHE isn't able to haul much
anymore :-) My bro? He has an SUV and his wife a baby Benz. I just
can't imagine him even considering another car just to tool the 3.5
miles to his office every day.
>
>In other words, just because it is that way, doesn't mean it can't change.
I am finding this attitude increasingly prevelant.
>
>Someone asked what is missing? In my opinion, All it is gonna take is a new
car company(caugh). Someone to hit the ground running with 3 or 4 models at
30k-50K units initial offering. This should get the economies of scale
needed to provide good value.
>
>One with a new way of thinking about cars.
> Who said we have to have yearly models? What "year" is your computer? (1)
> Why do we pay such high collision insurance prices? They are based on
repair costs.
> A car company is Uniquely qualified to have the best value on repair parts
why oh why do parts generally cost more at the dealer and WAYYY WAYYY more
than the cost of the vehicle would indicate.
> Why not have open standards.
> EV's can have a low part count, so make that a religion.
> Aftermarket/custom parts are a cinch.
> It would keep a car company honest; If the informaiton is open, any
company could produce the part, if they can produce a small number of the
part at a lower price, then I am doing it wrong.
> If another comany wanted to make compatible motors and parts, by all
means. the more the marrier.
> Buy an updated controller like you buy a new VGA card.(1)
>
> Wouldn't you like to be the car company who could advertise the lowest
price to insure.
I fully agree with that assessment but under current government
conditions, that is impossible. Go to that link I posted yesterday
and read all of 40CFR83. If you can. That's just for emissions. Then
go read the FMVSSs. Try to understand what a car manufacturer has to
go through just to open its doors.
I know that there are a lot of folks on this list who love to hate the
car companies and for some aspects, I agree. But after having spent a
good deal of time at both GM's and Ford's R&D centers, I'm amazed at
what they do and how much it costs to do it. I fully believe GM when
it says that it spent a $billion on the EV1.
The best car I've ever owned was my 72 240Z that I bought new. $3250
out the door. Lightweight, simple, no airbombs or crash bumpers,
anything could be fixed with ordinary hand tools and reliable as a
hammer. Plus it was really fun to drive. A manufacturer could not
even think about selling a car like that now.
By all means, let the small fearful people buy airbomb-laden mobile
padded cells if they like but also let me buy a simple and light and
uncomplicated car - gas or electric - if I want. Unfortunately the
feds have taken that freedom to choose away from me. And you.
As far as an open design, much of the modern car already is. If you
get your hands on an SAE handbook (up to maybe $600 now so I haven't
updated in quite a few years) you'll see just how much of a car IS
standardized. Engine management is the major area that is highly
proprietary and then only because the feds haven't done their jobs.
There is (or at least was last time I looked) a provision in the
clean air act that required that any emissions-related firmware have
its source code released to the public. That they've been allowed to
keep it secret and even use encrypted datastreams for programming and
diagnostic has been a real sore spot for us EFI hackers.
Unfortunately, IMO, if a totally new low cost and lightweight car of
any sort enters the market it will be from a third world country that
has the backing of its government to a) finance the startup and b) buy
enough politicians to get exemptions from the various regulations.
That country will probably have a name that starts with a "C" or an
"I".
>I like to think a company smart enough to make electric cars will create a
side buisness that puts chargeing kiosks in mall parking lots chargeing a
small profit for oppertunity chargeing. Or creates the units for sale to
enterprising people. So a few "company stores" and a bunch of independents.
I don't think it will be the car companies that do this, no more than
GM is in the gasoline biz. It'll probably be Walmart :-)
Here's an idea that I've been promoting for years. I travel a lot (as
opposed to camping) in my motorhome. As you may be aware, Walmart
welcomes RVers to overnight in its parking lots. Always has. It's
good for Walmart - most folks end up buying something while stopped -
and it's good for RVers.
I've suggested to Walmart in the form of several letters that they
turn this into a profitable use of otherwise unused real-estate. My
idea is to install electrical outlets (30 amp 120 volt RV and 50 amp
240 volt range outlets used by the bigger RVs) on lighting poles along
with a bill acceptor and credit card swiper. That would let an RVer
who didn't want to run the generator all night (at 0.75 gallons per
hour in my case) for AC pull up to a pole, deposit a few dollars and
have a hot outlet for the night. Considering that I'm going to burn 6
or more gallons of gas a night in hot weather, I'd gladly pay $10 for
a night's worth of electricity.
The hardware to do this is already available - heck, even my
self-serve car wash accepts plastic now - and Wallyworld is the leader
in sales automation. Standard RV outlet/water poles are already
available that contain the necessary hardware and wiring. Some even
come with transmitting power meters for RV parks that charge their
patrons for power use. All one would have to do is install a currency
and plastic acceptor and a contactor in the pole.
This would also be the perfect setup for EVers. Pull up to the pole,
pick how many KWh you want, pay for it, plug in and go shopping. This
would neatly solve the "chicken or the egg dilemma". There could be a
huge synergy between RVers and EVers. Of course, we'd have to first
get past all the Wallyworld haters, many of whom also seem to be the
car company hating type.
To date I've at least gotten a letter back acknowledging receipt of my
letter :-)
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Evan,
Sure - that explains it, more safety by lowering the
voltage wrt ground on each leg and ability to detect
ground faults on both as well.
Thanks,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 1:43 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Genny
What's confusing about it exactly?
Centre-tapped 110V windings are universal and standard (and required)
for building site generators. It means that there is 55VAC to
"ground" on each "leg".
On 4/13/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is a confusing answer,
> centre-tapped implies that twice the voltage is available.
>
> Since this persion is in Europe and explicitly states it is 110V,
> not 230V, my guess it that it is not in the gen head.
> You could buy it if it goes for cheap and rewind the head or
> even use a 110:230V transformer if you do not like tearing into
> the set.
>
> Last resort ;-) is to ask the seller which type he is selling and
> looking up the specs.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Evan Tuer
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 4:35 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Genny
>
>
> On 4/12/06, John Luck Home <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I wonder if anyone on the list is familiar with the 3Kva Honda Generator
> on
> > ebay - item 7609509034.
> >
> > It says there are two 110v sockets but I want to know if I can series
> these
> > up to produce 220volts or whether they are simply two parallel sockets.
> >
> > I would have though Honda would have made just one type of generator for
> > both European and the US market where they could run the output
windings
> as
> > two separate 110volt outputs or one 220volt output.
>
> It's a site generator. They have a single 110V winding,
> centre-tapped. I sincerely doubt that the generator is made or
> assembled by Honda anyway, only the engine is.
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
.. that there is more power
in that 'nothing' than we 'believe' ..>
..peekay
What the HECK are you talking about?! Did you mean popular 'nonsense'?
[snip]
Though we joke about free energy and over unity devices on this list, (Got
Tilley?) what if there was actually a model of physics that could explain
it?
I just finished reading a free book online. For those open-minded enough to
tackle the whole thing, I highly recommend it whether you buy into the
concepts presented or not. (in my case it helped that I had been exposed to
many of the parts and pieces encompassed into this material for most of my
life)
This is definitely off-topic-
Prologue to "Shift of the Ages: Scientific Proof for Ascension"-
http://www.divinecosmos.com/cms/content/view/54/36/
"Shift of the Ages: Scientific Proof for Ascension" complete text-
http://www.divinecosmos.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=6&id=18&Itemid=36
I would appreciate off-list feedback in the future from any list members
that do decide to tackle it.
Enjoy!
...
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My base moter in the CE now is a GE.It set the 8.801 record with just static
timing. Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
Seriously though, about the remote. How cool, you plug the car in and the
remote upstairs on the coffee table or in the kitchen, in your pocket,
whatever,,, Shows the state of charge in a bar graph and percent. Another
piece of technology already available is ampacity of the battery, directly
tells you the age/life expectancy of the battery. (some of you will say I'm
wacked, but it's already here and I am working on interfacing that data to
marine CAN-Bus)
Mark Grasser
Subject: EV mass market, was: Monster Garage
John,
These sorts of people are NOT going to EVER do
anything any more technical than plug something
in and click the remote.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> John, good that you took the next step and wrote a letter to Wal*Mart
> [about putting metered electric outlets in their parking lot]. If you
> do not get a favorable response, consider to offer $15 to $20 per
> night and point out how infrastructure cost may be reduced by using
> existing grants and possibly the remaining costs could be shared with
> the local EV chapter - you will need to make a move to start the
> action...
Cor is right. Wal-Mart is greedy. Phrase it so they will make money, and
they will do it.
For example, look at how soft drink vending machines work. A local
bottler offers a FREE vending machine to go at your location, and GIVES
YOU a share of the profits. No risk for the store owner, only profit. Of
course he says yes, which is why there are vending machines everywhere.
So, offer your local Wal-Mart manager a FREE outlet box, that you will
PAY to have mounted on his parking lot light poles. It has a credit card
slot or coin box or whatever to sell power for $1/hour. GIVE the
Wal-Mart store half the money collected. He'll see it as a can't-lose
situation and go for it!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Sure - that explains it, more safety by lowering the
> voltage wrt ground on each leg and ability to detect
> ground faults on both as well.
It violates the National Electric Code, but I suspect most of these
generators ignore them anyway.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This could be a great selling point in the South. I could leave the A/C on
while I'm in the mall, for example, on battery power without running the
engine. In the plug-in version, I could cool the car down while recharging
from the power outlet. Northerners may not appreciate the value of this,
but people in the south certainly will. Mark T.
Mark,
All cars that have an EV button also have an electric A/C pump.
(classic Prius has engine-driven A/C but also has no EV button,
if the A/C is activated the engine will come on and stay on;
the electric-only mode is limited to 1 mile; 2 miles tops)
Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most DC to AC inverters coming from Asia are this way. Center taped outputs.
I'd say 95% or more. NEC says the gnd and neutral must be tied together.
Interesting as I have always felt the 60v/60v is safer.
Mark Grasser
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Genny
Cor van de Water wrote:
Sure - that explains it, more safety by lowering the
voltage wrt ground on each leg and ability to detect
ground faults on both as well.
It violates the National Electric Code, but I suspect most of these
generators ignore them anyway.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The range of my truck is down to 12 miles or so. It's still useful in
the fairly high density area that I live in. I still only need to fire
the gas hog up maybe a couple times per week max. Some weeks it never
gets started.
Last summer I had a stretch of 86 days where the gas hog didn't even
get used. The truck was at 98% duty. The only fuel I purchased was for
the motorcycle, and that was $12 for the whole 86 days.
I can pass everyone except for the battery dealer.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sometime ago, I read a article in either Popular Science or some
other mag.,
> about the efficiency of driving in different area of the country.
>
> The vehicle manufacturers had the country divided up into 12 zones,
where
> they tested the same type of vehicle for a 78 mile city only
driving. I was
> wondering why it always a 78 mile test.
>
> They use Pittsburgh, PA as a reference to 1.00 factor in there test
vehicle.
> The same test in Miami, Fla. resulted in a factor of 1.80.
>
> This means if your vehicle does 20 mpg on a non-stop level driving
for 78
> miles, compare to 1.8 factor, in PA it would be about 11 mpg.
>
> So I did this test first with my ICE than with my EV. The loop
around the
> city of Great Falls, MT. is about 39 miles. It has 22 stop lights
and it is
> hilly which is up and down grades all the way and a speed of 35 mph.
Pulling
> 600 amps to 0 amps and back to 600 amps on this grades.
>
> I can normally do 22.5 mpg in my ICE at a non-stop steady speed of
65 mph.
> Around this loop the mpg was reading 13 mpg which I had to stop for
about 15
> of the stop lights. This was a factor of 0.57.
>
> Now, the same test in my EV resulted in stopping at all 22 stops
which I
> barely made one loop around. The calculated factor for the EV is a
0.39! on
> this drive.
>
> I was using 300 AH batteries with a reserved capacity of 175 mins.
at 75
> amps.
>
> 175 mins / 60 = 2.91 hrs 2.91 hrs x 75 = 218 AH
>
> Usable AH to 50% DOD would be about 218/2 = 109 AH
>
> I have used about 80% of my battery capacity in this 39 mile loop.
>
> I going to have to repeat this test, when I get my GE 11 in. and
auto/manual
> transmission back in the EV, to see if there is a difference. Since
the
> last test, they reconstructed this drive loop with better
synchronization of
> new lights and speeds up to 45 mph.
>
> In the same Magazine, there was a article of what the distances the
normal
> people commute everyday. If you subtract all the semi's, heavy
trucks, and
> all other transports except for a normal vehicle that a person
drives daily,
> it came down to that 85% of these commutes were 15 miles or less for
all
> license drivers.
>
> There may be some error, because we have young drivers in training that
> don't drive that far and older drivers that may not drive at all.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 10:26 PM
> Subject: RE: Who REALLY drives the Most Miles
>
>
> > Humm,
> > I live in a town that is flat and 15 miles accross and long. About
> > 350,000 people can use a lowtech EV here.
> >
> > I think anyone preaching that all cars should be electric is not
being
> > realistic at current technology. I tell people this, it is a stat I
> > used in one of my speaches at school after a fair amount of research:
> > "if 30% of the population can commute to work, driving about 30
miles a
> > day using electric, The united states could stop importing oil" I
would
> > now add that it may allow us to keep the price of gaoline down to
a more
> > reasonable price for those weekends and long trips when we drive
the ICE.
> >
> >
> > right tool for right job.
> >
> > If there was a car company selling a 4 seater electric car with
100mile
> > range for 30K with 50.000 mile warentee, would you buy one?
> >
> > I do not think this is an unreasonable at all. what about at 23k?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The Monster Garage spectacle was a disappointment. I did
> enjoy seeing Rich and Shaun doing their thing except when
> they were taking serious electric shock risks. I could
> have done without the circus atmosphere and without Jesse.
As luck would have it, I had forgotten about the show airing Monday but
happened to see an ad for it while channel surfing at my hotel and
caught the whole thing. I have to agree with Tom. I'd never seen MG
before and was surprised at what a loser of a dweeb Jesse came across
as. Not having seen MG before, I don't know if the circus atmosphere is
standard fare catering to an audience afflicted with ADD, or if it was
something they used to try to spice up the show because they weren't
sure how this episode would hold their regular viewer's interest.
It was cool to see Rich on the tube and to be able to "meet" Shawn.
The drag race scenes were something of a disappointment; not only did
the EV not hit the traps anywhere close to the ICE, but it appeared that
the EV couldn't even get ahead of the ICE off the line. Anyone who's
been to any of the NEDRA events knows that in a typical well-matched
EV/ICE race the EV leaves the ICE like its standing still off the line,
and then the ICE reels in the EV so that both hit the traps at near the
same time. Perhaps it was just the camera angle that tended to hide any
off the line advantage the EV may have had, but the 60ft times Rich
posted seem to back up the impression that the ICE was ahead pretty much
right off the line and just kept opening up the gap.
> I would have enjoyed seeing Rich lose his cool and slap
> Jesse so hard he would bounce when he hit the deck.
Yep, that would've taken the show to a whole 'nother level! ;^>
I suppose we'll just have to settle for the look on Jesse's face when
Rich spoke of the "pucker factor"...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would it be even faster if you could advance it and
add circuitry to lower the field strength?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My base moter in the CE now is a GE.It set the 8.801 record with just static
timing. Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wondering what is the most batteries anybody has gotten into a beetle
without taking out the backseat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush,
In 2003 my price was $49 each for 17 plus tax.
Thanks,
Mike
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: T-125 Equivalent Batteries
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:00:57 -0700
From: Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
And what was your price?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/14/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Sure - that explains it, more safety by lowering the
> > voltage wrt ground on each leg and ability to detect
> > ground faults on both as well.
>
> It violates the National Electric Code, but I suspect most of these
> generators ignore them anyway.
It's not meant to comply with NEC though, it's meant to comply with BS
7671, which has a requirement for equipment used in certain situations
to be 110V, CTE. That's why all building site power tools are 110V,
and generators to run them have only yellow 110V outlets and not blue
230V ones.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Thanks for taking the time for all of the advice.
I believe that the cap mess is from sloshing.
My car is an ElectraVan and it rides pretty rough. The first set of
caps were the snap on single cap type for all three cells. This combo
cap was quite large and I had no mess. My second pack came with much
smaller snap on combo caps for 3 cells at a time. These just gushed
acid. At that point I queried this list for help and got a fair number
of responses. The net wisdom said to change to individual bayonet type
caps which seal better. Well, I did that, and it cut back the gush to a
leak.
Over the life of the pack, I took interest in solving the problem
several times. I am not absolutely sure, but with the current caps, I
think that the problem is that from pothole to pothole acid sloshes up
into the cap. Then as the battery out gases on high current draws the
gas sprays the acid out the vent hole. I don't see any problem while
charging. This is consistent with the behavior of the original caps
which had an interior space about the size of a 35 mm film canister for
each cell.
I was very disappointed that Trojan showed no interest. I am grateful
to my local supplier for his pricing and support, but he only has the
caps that Trojan supplies to him. I have no idea whether another
battery brand would fix the problem, and I wouldn't even consider it if
I could find some 3rd party caps that sealed well and had a large
capacity gas/liquid separation chamber. I have not seriously considered
hydrocaps because of the price.
Thanks,
Mike
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: T-125 Equivalent Batteries
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:02:27 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
snip__
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This past week I attended the Advancements in Battery Technology & Power
Management conference and thought I'd share a couple of potentially
interesting tidbits:
- I noticed a familiar name from the EVDL on the attendee list (Dale
Glubrecht), but didn't manage to cross paths with him, although I tried
keeping an eye out during the networking breaks...
- GP Batteries' presentation focused on their TMF lead acid cell
technology (which they acquired by buying up Bolder Technologies). Bill
Dube's KillaCycle was featured as a prime example of the sort of power
these little batteries are capable of.
- Kokam did a presentation regarding their folded structure Li polymer
batteries. As most of us know, one of the key features of their product
is its high power capability (up to 40C!). One of the key examples in
Kokam's presentation was ProEV's racer and its winning record.
The high profile of both ProEV's car and Bill Dube's bike in these two
manufacturers' presentations clearly illustrates that there is
definitely value to the manufacturer in sponsoring EV racers.
- PowerPrecise Solutions presented their Li cell management system,
which includes active cell balancing. The key interesting feature of
this system is its ability to handle much longer strings of cells than
most (all?) other solutions. Strings of 50-100 cells are possible, with
the main limitation said to be related to timing for the communication
between cells. Data from an independent lab was presented that showed
how the cell balancing was able to bring a severely imbalanced pack into
close balance in about 2 cycles after being turned on. If balancing was
enabled during rest, the cells were brought into balance in about 14hrs,
just sitting with the system on. The presentation didn't provide much
by way of techinical details on how the system works and I haven't yet
had a chance to dig through their website, but this system certainly
appears to have the ability to make Li packs a more practical option for
EVers.
- there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell management
and fuel gauging. One of the observations I found interesting is that
the differences in cell internal resistance can result in cell voltage
differences that swamp voltage differences due to cell imbalance to the
extent that purely voltage-based balancing schemes may actually
"correct" in the wrong direction. It was also noted that voltage
differences due to cell imbalance may remain too small to direct cell
balancing efforts except near the very end of discharge or (to a smaller
extent) the end of charge, which can greatly limit the amount of time
available for a cell balancing scheme to provide any correction.
- there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell failures and
safety. A couple of the interesting points included the fact that one
must always expect LiIon cell failures due to internal shorts, and that
every 18650 cell includes a charge interrupt device (CID) internally.
Examples of X-ray and CT scan images of failed 18650 cells were provided
illustrating how very small metal fragments/contamination can cause
internal shorts between the electrodes in these spirally wound cells and
cause dramatic thermal failure of the entire pack. The significance of
the internal CID device (an aluminum disc switch that internally
open-circuits the cell if the internal pressure rises sufficiently) is
that if one of these ever opens in a long string of cells (like a few
hundred volt EV string), it will have to break full pack voltage and may
be unable to prevent an internal arc. So, it seems that if one is
intent on using small cells such as these to make up an EV pack, it is
probably best to parallel several cells and then series connect these
modules rather than paralleling long strings of single cells.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AA or AAA?
But seriously Chris, take a look at all the VW Bugs already
converted at
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/volkswagen.html
In the early days of only 6V wet cell batteries being available,
the round body shape of the VW Bug made it tough to fit in enough
wet cell batteries.
But today you have all kinds of batteries to choose from. AGM and
Gel do not 'have-to' be placed upright, so you could jam them in
all kinds of nooks and crannies.
But for a standard 75mph top speed and 50 mile range it is going to
be a 96V or higher pack, made up of 6V wet-cell traction/golf-cart
batteries.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 2:06 PM
Subject: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
> Wondering what is the most batteries anybody has gotten into a beetle
> without taking out the backseat.
A neighbor of mine, who is a EE and a instructor at a technical college, has
the students build a VW EV Beetle with 48 volts of 6 volt deep cycle floor
cleaning type of batteries. They were all in the back above the motor on a
shelf as forward as you can get. They had about the same rear weight as when
it had the engine.
They first use a 28 VDC aircraft starter motor which actually had a label
rating of 36 volts. Used a contactor drive with a large fin type .5 ohm
resistor with taps that had to be over 20kw rating.
They later change it to a ADC motor, built there own controller and then a
donated controller.
This unit was very zippy, could do faster acceleration than my 7000 lb ev
with 3000 lbs of batteries at 180 volts. It even had about the same range
as my EV.
There was no accessory battery, heater, power steering, vacuum and etc.
Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
