EV Digest 5371
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Genny
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for
3 square yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's
ratio
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Walmart (was: Re: Monster Garage)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Monster Garage
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3 square
yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's ratio
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Genny
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Looking for a GEM Utility - Bay Area, CA
by "J Mac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV mass market,
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Genny
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Who killed the electric car tickets sold out for Friday night.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Back Rack Pictures (was: Angle Iron to Chassis)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery & Charging conference
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Weigh car with pressure guage and ruler
by "Electric Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DMM Question
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: T-125 Equivalent Batteries
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3 square
yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's ratio
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?Chargin' Along!
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: GE 9 ' motors for EV
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery testing
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3 square
yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's ratio
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Maximising torque for racing
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Battery testing
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3 square
yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's ratio
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Maximising torque for racing
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Genny
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Hybridize-yourself?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) HAZE batteries
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: NiCad questions, tools and stuff...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:38:06 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Cor van de Water wrote:
>> Sure - that explains it, more safety by lowering the
>> voltage wrt ground on each leg and ability to detect
>> ground faults on both as well.
>
>It violates the National Electric Code, but I suspect most of these
>generators ignore them anyway.
He's in England so the NEC isn't really a concern. Regardless, how
does that violate the code as it pertains to a portable generator?
I know that if the generator is the conventional hot, neutral, ground,
that the neutral and ground have to be bonded but this configuration
isn't. I haven't read the code in detail in a long time but I don't
recall any requirement for a portable generator to be configured
conventionally.
I really like that idea of only 60 volts to ground. A far better
solution than the GCFIs as we now have them, IMO. One would have to
be quite determined to be electrocuted with 60 volts.
Cor, to squash a common mis-conception, a GFI does not need ground to
detect ground faults. A GFI would work equally well with a
center-tapped source. Here's a paper I authored several years ago
that goes into the operation of a GFI in some detail.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/gfi.pdf
Several things are outdated in this paper and I really need to update
it, including the neutral fault detection but the basics of operation
are still correct.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't the patch size now-a-days be determined more
by the radial belt than the internal pressure?
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Electric Man wrote:
Very accurate.
I'm not sure about that. For example, let's take a vehicle and weight
it on a certified or calibrated scale to get an accurate initial
number. Now let's use your tire measuring method. Now let's swap out
the tires for some smaller, thinner, narrower ones. How about some
22's with 1" tall stiff side walls? How about some huge mud tires?
How about some tires that are ~12" wide?
Can we get accurate weight measurements with any size and type of tire?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:22:04 -0700, "Tim Clevenger"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Better yet, skip the bill changer/credit card machine and just put machines
>that accept tokens. Walmart has the ability to process payments for a
>variety of gift cards inside the store; give each cashier a couple of rolls
>of tokens and send the RV'ers through the line, and you also encourage them
>to buy other stuff while they're in the store. (I thought of magstripe
>cards, but if they're stored-value cards, they'll be hacked, and if not,
>then the light poles have to communicate back to a central computer to
>verify. For tokens, you just have to worry about people feeding in slugs,
>and there are ways to detect those.)
>
>This could be packaged and offered to any strip mall or parking lot owner,
>not just Walmart.
Tokens wouldn't work. Too inconvenient. We've had megabytes of
discussion about Camp Wallyworld usage in rec.outdoors.rv-travel and
the theme is pretty much the same with almost everyone. When I pull
into Camp Wallyworld, I'm tired enough to do little more than shut the
engine off, crank the genny if necessary and go to sleep. I will NOT
go into the store at night. I shop the next morning if I need
anything.
I also won't let Wallyworld hold any of my money for me in the form of
tokens or gift cards that I'd have to buy ahead of time. Sorry but I
think I do a better job of holding my money than they would :-)
Wallyworld has already widely deployed Symbol-brand WiFi point-of-sale
and point-of-stock systems in all their stores. They're already used
to remote WiFi POS. The outdoor garden center and the sidewalk sales,
for instance. Putting in a WiFi-based card, coin or bill acceptor
would involve little more than mounting it and hooking up the wires.
It's been interesting to sit in the lot and do amateur traffic
analysis by listening in on their Wifi net. It's all encrypted so no
data can be read but just looking at the frequency of packets and
where they're coming from is interesting.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Too bad that episode couldn't have been sponsored by Optima, Hawker
or Exide instead of Milwaukee. Things probably would have turned out
much, much differently.
Tim
On Apr 14, 2006, at 9:09 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: April 14, 2006 12:51:16 PM PDT
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
Hi all,
I finally got a chance to watch the show after it'd been sitting on my
Tivo all week, and from an EVer's perspective, I'm just amazed! For
Rich, Shawn, and Jon to get that complex of a battery system
working as
quickly as they did takes talent for sure... and I thought my
JeepEV was
complicated!!! :-)
However, from a non-EV biased perspective, I'd agree with Michaela
that
the show was disappointingly biased and didn't shed EVs in a
particularly good light. Though, I don't think the show was nearly as
bad as it could've been. BTW, I did find it entertaining to hear Jesse
talking about the build and his plans for it, because, IMO he
really came across sounding like he didn't know what the hell he
was talking about (especially at the beginning of the show).
I did a quick (not representative) panel among friends I asked to
watch the show (about 40) that are not involved with (but are
interested in) electric vehicles. If interested, I can post my list
of questions about EVs and the answers before and after the show.
I'm interested in seeing this data... I think it could help further
my understanding of the general public's views of EVs and how they
react positively/negatively to what is shown/said about them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:17:57 -0700, "Electric Man"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Reminds me of the simple yet accurate way to weigh a car.
>You need a ruler and a tire pressure gauge. Park on a smooth hard surface,
>concrete is best.
>Measure the footprint of tire 1, only the area in contact with the ground,
>and multiply length x width to determine area in square inches. Now measure
>the pressure in tire 1 in PSI, and multiply result by area. Now repeat with
>tires 2, 3, and 4. Add the results. Now you have total weight, corner
>weights, and F/R bias.
>Very accurate. Nearly as repeatable as my $1700 corner scales.
I've been thinking about that technique myself. How do you accurately
measure the footprint? I'm probably being paranoid about accuracy
since I've yet to have the opportunity to compare corner scales to
this type of measurement. What I was thinking was a hunk of plex
thick enough to support a wheel's weight, up on short stilts so that
the contact patch could be photographed. I also thought about
spraying around each tire with some water soluble dye or maybe chalk
powder, then rolling the car out of the way and measuring the area of
the patch that remains.
Obviously you've come up with something simpler. Spill the beans,
dude :-)
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I read that...excellent little article.
Would love to see it again if you get the
updates made.
Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:38:06 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Cor van de Water wrote:
Sure - that explains it, more safety by lowering the
voltage wrt ground on each leg and ability to detect
ground faults on both as well.
It violates the National Electric Code, but I suspect most of these
generators ignore them anyway.
He's in England so the NEC isn't really a concern. Regardless, how
does that violate the code as it pertains to a portable generator?
I know that if the generator is the conventional hot, neutral, ground,
that the neutral and ground have to be bonded but this configuration
isn't. I haven't read the code in detail in a long time but I don't
recall any requirement for a portable generator to be configured
conventionally.
I really like that idea of only 60 volts to ground. A far better
solution than the GCFIs as we now have them, IMO. One would have to
be quite determined to be electrocuted with 60 volts.
Cor, to squash a common mis-conception, a GFI does not need ground to
detect ground faults. A GFI would work equally well with a
center-tapped source. Here's a paper I authored several years ago
that goes into the operation of a GFI in some detail.
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/gfi.pdf
Several things are outdated in this paper and I really need to update
it, including the neutral fault detection but the basics of operation
are still correct.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need a long bed utility for my business.
I sell ice cream, so the freezer would go on the back & we'd double up the
batteries to extend range & give it more power.
Suggestions .. thoughts .. ideas are welcome!
Thanks,
Mac
From: bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: evlist <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for a GEM Utility - Bay Area, CA
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
[IMHO: why?]
nevs discussion group has nevs for sale on it
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEVs/
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Grasser wrote:
Seriously though, about the remote. How cool, you plug the car in
and the remote upstairs on the coffee table or in the kitchen, in
your pocket, whatever,,, Shows the state of charge in a bar graph
and percent. Another piece of technology already available is
ampacity of the battery, directly tells you the age/life expectancy
of the battery. (some of you will say I'm wacked, but it's already
here and I am working on interfacing that data to marine CAN-Bus)
Check out the Honda EVplus in the EV Album at:
http://evalbum.com/268.html
It has (had) a remote that does this, plus the ability to control the
air conditioning and heating.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure would like to see pictures of what you did. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electric Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
I just finished one with 16 T145's and a back seat.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 1:06 PM
Subject: how many batteries fit in a beetle?
Wondering what is the most batteries anybody has gotten into a beetle
without taking out the backseat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:41:26 -0500, Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>John,
>
>I read that...excellent little article.
>Would love to see it again if you get the
>updates made.
Thanks. I really do need to update it. Every time I think about
doing that, I recall how long it took to do those illustrations and
seem to lose interest. I have some spare time now so maybe I will.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got a ticket for Saturday night. Only a few are left. Go on line to
get them. www.sffs.org.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, if the pictures of the front battery rack weren't enough to scare you
away, here's a page I put together about the recently-installed rear
batteries:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~denniswilliamsha/BackBatteryRack.html
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No worries, they are rechargeable. They are just not as volitile as
Li-Ion, and Manganese is cheaper.
Here is the presentation in its entirety. 1 hour. Free sign up.
http://w.on24.com/r.htm?e=21176&s=1&k=4BADABDB562ADB02DEB955BD3A5B3CEC
I can email you the notes they gave us.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I just did a quick search on Lithium Manganese and
> from what I found, it appears that these batteries
> are not rechargable.
>
> What application do you see for these batteries if
> they are not rechargeable?
>
> Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> > I attended a webcast of a similar nature. I was most hopeful about
> > Lithium Manganese. Any word on that at your conference?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <ev@> wrote:
> >
> >>This past week I attended the Advancements in Battery Technology &
Power
> >>Management conference and thought I'd share a couple of potentially
> >>interesting tidbits:
> >>
> >>- I noticed a familiar name from the EVDL on the attendee list (Dale
> >>Glubrecht), but didn't manage to cross paths with him, although I
tried
> >>keeping an eye out during the networking breaks...
> >>
> >>- GP Batteries' presentation focused on their TMF lead acid cell
> >>technology (which they acquired by buying up Bolder Technologies).
Bill
> >>Dube's KillaCycle was featured as a prime example of the sort of power
> >>these little batteries are capable of.
> >>
> >>- Kokam did a presentation regarding their folded structure Li polymer
> >>batteries. As most of us know, one of the key features of their
product
> >>is its high power capability (up to 40C!). One of the key examples in
> >>Kokam's presentation was ProEV's racer and its winning record.
> >>
> >>The high profile of both ProEV's car and Bill Dube's bike in these two
> >>manufacturers' presentations clearly illustrates that there is
> >>definitely value to the manufacturer in sponsoring EV racers.
> >>
> >>- PowerPrecise Solutions presented their Li cell management system,
> >>which includes active cell balancing. The key interesting feature of
> >>this system is its ability to handle much longer strings of cells than
> >>most (all?) other solutions. Strings of 50-100 cells are
possible, with
> >>the main limitation said to be related to timing for the communication
> >>between cells. Data from an independent lab was presented that showed
> >>how the cell balancing was able to bring a severely imbalanced
pack into
> >>close balance in about 2 cycles after being turned on. If
balancing was
> >>enabled during rest, the cells were brought into balance in about
14hrs,
> >>just sitting with the system on. The presentation didn't provide much
> >>by way of techinical details on how the system works and I haven't yet
> >>had a chance to dig through their website, but this system certainly
> >>appears to have the ability to make Li packs a more practical
option for
> >>EVers.
> >>
> >>- there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell management
> >>and fuel gauging. One of the observations I found interesting is that
> >>the differences in cell internal resistance can result in cell voltage
> >>differences that swamp voltage differences due to cell imbalance
to the
> >>extent that purely voltage-based balancing schemes may actually
> >>"correct" in the wrong direction. It was also noted that voltage
> >>differences due to cell imbalance may remain too small to direct cell
> >>balancing efforts except near the very end of discharge or (to a
smaller
> >>extent) the end of charge, which can greatly limit the amount of time
> >>available for a cell balancing scheme to provide any correction.
> >>
> >>- there were a few interesting presentations on LiIon cell
failures and
> >>safety. A couple of the interesting points included the fact that one
> >>must always expect LiIon cell failures due to internal shorts, and
that
> >>every 18650 cell includes a charge interrupt device (CID) internally.
> >>Examples of X-ray and CT scan images of failed 18650 cells were
provided
> >>illustrating how very small metal fragments/contamination can cause
> >>internal shorts between the electrodes in these spirally wound
cells and
> >>cause dramatic thermal failure of the entire pack. The
significance of
> >>the internal CID device (an aluminum disc switch that internally
> >>open-circuits the cell if the internal pressure rises sufficiently) is
> >>that if one of these ever opens in a long string of cells (like a few
> >>hundred volt EV string), it will have to break full pack voltage
and may
> >>be unable to prevent an internal arc. So, it seems that if one is
> >>intent on using small cells such as these to make up an EV pack, it is
> >>probably best to parallel several cells and then series connect these
> >>modules rather than paralleling long strings of single cells.
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>
> >>Roger.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan wrote:
Can we get accurate weight measurements with any size and type of tire?
I have not had the opportunity to check all possibilities of tire size. I
was skeptical, but it all comes down to "pounds per square inch". A slick
way to measure exact area would be to jack the car up, ink the tire, set it
down on a sheet of paper, scan it (digitize) 1:1, and use an image area
calculator like in AutoCad. But for most of my purposes, a good ruler,
accurate pressure gauge, and a calculator do great. An inner tube on it's
side serves me well as an impromptu scale for other objects. A spray of
water leaves a nice ring (stays wet under the tube) and simply measure the
outer and inner ring, calculate the area of the circles and subtract the
inner area. Or just invest in a scale.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Add:
4) bad or loose fuse.
If the fuse is abused or corrodes, it can produce funny readings on the ohms
function.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 6:55 PM
Subject: DMM Question
> Hope this isn't considered off topic.
>
> I got myself a used Fluke 87 DMM off of ebay and I have a basic
> operation question.
>
> When I turn the dial to the resistance/conductivity (Omega symbol) and
> touch the leads together I get unexpected (to me at least) results and
> inconsistent results.
>
> More often than not the meter display runs through different numbers
> (including different scales when in auto ranging) and does not settle
> down within 5-10 seconds.
>
> Other times I have had it settle down around 1.5 K Omega
>
> My intuition is that I have one or more of the following problems:
> 1) Bad Meter
> 2) Bad Leads
> 3) Incompetent Operator
>
> Thanks
>
> John O'Connor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bought 30 T-125's about 2 months ago for $79 each here in Tucson. This was
without any core charge.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: T-125 Equivalent Batteries
> Rush,
>
> In 2003 my price was $49 each for 17 plus tax.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: T-125 Equivalent Batteries
> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:00:57 -0700
> From: Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> And what was your price?
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/312 - Release Date: 4/14/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could you wrap a piece of thread/cord/string around the tire footprint and
then roll the car off that location to measure the area inside the
perimeter?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: how to : determine weight from photo .. weight of images for 3
square yards ( 9 square feet) .. and car cutout .. same ratio as AREA's
ratio
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:17:57 -0700, "Electric Man"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Reminds me of the simple yet accurate way to weigh a car.
> >You need a ruler and a tire pressure gauge. Park on a smooth hard
surface,
> >concrete is best.
> >Measure the footprint of tire 1, only the area in contact with the
ground,
> >and multiply length x width to determine area in square inches. Now
measure
> >the pressure in tire 1 in PSI, and multiply result by area. Now repeat
with
> >tires 2, 3, and 4. Add the results. Now you have total weight, corner
> >weights, and F/R bias.
> >Very accurate. Nearly as repeatable as my $1700 corner scales.
>
> I've been thinking about that technique myself. How do you accurately
> measure the footprint? I'm probably being paranoid about accuracy
> since I've yet to have the opportunity to compare corner scales to
> this type of measurement. What I was thinking was a hunk of plex
> thick enough to support a wheel's weight, up on short stilts so that
> the contact patch could be photographed. I also thought about
> spraying around each tire with some water soluble dye or maybe chalk
> powder, then rolling the car out of the way and measuring the area of
> the patch that remains.
>
> Obviously you've come up with something simpler. Spill the beans,
> dude :-)
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 14, 2006, at 1:06 PM, Chris wrote:
Wondering what is the most batteries anybody has gotten into a beetle
without taking out the backseat.
The old (real :-) Beetle?
There used to be a shop that rebuilt EVs in Seattle that would do an
electric EV on special order. They managed to get 16 golf cart
batteries in a Beetle with all the seats intact. The front trunk was no
longer usable as a trunk.
The Beetle is one of those vehicles that doesn't make a good freeway
EV. Its got the aerodynamics of a brick! But they are the coolest
looking antique on the road today - IMHO.
Paul G.
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Yes, the 400 amp charger will pull bulk power off DC but it won't be
isolated from the DC source. It will need AC to run the water pump and the
induction motor drive blower. These could be converted to DC capable parts
in your unit if you specify it at the time of order.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?Chargin' Along!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DM3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: Is a 200 mph Electric Cup Car possible ?
>
>
> > > RAH! GO Rich! You have the right idea!!Betya you could pump my
Rabbit
> up in 15 minutes?! Would be able to make it the "Only" car. I bought one
of
> yur PFC-20's as a means of voting for your support.MORE POWER! I love it
> when you talk it! It is the way to go. I was pumping 70 amps@ 120 volts
into
> my Rabbit with my "Little Blue Box" charging setup. Shoulda seen the meter
> go, like a CD player! But I was charged up enough to run anothe 50 miles
> after lunch. Just a thought. Will your BIG chargers run on DC? Like tons
of
> BIG batteries, say in a Dump Charge facility? This is WAY down the road,
> like it comes to pass that there are enough EV's to make Dump Charging a
biz
> posibility, and the local Edison is charging a zillion bux a KW, because
it
> is their "Prime Time" And EV's were lining up for juice around say, 5 pm,
to
> chargitup to get home?Well, if they prefer AC guess you could have a BIG
> Motor alternater, to run things?Just a few juicy thoughts.
>
> My 2 megawatts worth.
>
> , Bob
>
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Actually from what I've seen on this list, Dennis has made several
modifications to the motor that he is keeping quiet about, but at leat one
of them is an adjustable brush rigging that allows him to change his brush
timing as he is going down the track.
I'm not sure if he is running field weakening, I doubt it would help much
in a high voltage setup. The main point of field weakening is to gain
some extra RPM and torque at the top end, the trade off is lower torque
per amp and lower efficiency.
> Would it be even faster if you could advance it and
> add circuitry to lower the field strength?
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> My base moter in the CE now is a GE.It set the 8.801 record with just
>> static
>> timing. Dennis
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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There are two effects at work causing the terminal voltage to drop when
discharging a battery: 1) Open circuit (or very low rate) voltage
(indicating state of charge), and 2) voltage sag due to the product of a
high discharge rate and the internal resistance of the battery.
You can pull batteries below 10.5 volts under heavy load for brief periods
without damaging them. When you remove the load, the voltage rebounds to the
high 12's immediately. This treatment causes no damage. For example,
cranking a large ICE may pull the starting battery below 9 volts while
cranking. This does no damage since the voltage is low because of internal
resistance rather than state of charge. The rebound voltage after the load
is removed indicates the state of charge of the battery.
If the lights are left on in an ICE vehicle and the terminal voltage goes
below 10 volts, the voltage will rise very slowly to 12.0 or maybe not even
that high. This low voltage condition is caused by the state of charge and
indicates potential damage to the battery.
Generally, the damage is caused by the duration and depth of the low voltage
condition. Not the depth of the voltage sag alone.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Hacker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: Battery testing
> why do you take your batteries below 10.5 volts?
> Does that not take you into "dangerous territory"
> for battery life???
>
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On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:53:38 -0700, "Joe Smalley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Could you wrap a piece of thread/cord/string around the tire footprint and
>then roll the car off that location to measure the area inside the
>perimeter?
I don't know but I do know what one of my weekend projects is going to
be :-) I've weighed my car so I know what this procedure SHOULD
report.
One thing I'm going to try is to roll onto sheets of paper and spray
around the tires with oil and then water, roll off and measure the
area, hopefully before the stuff has a chance to wick.
That string trick will be great if it works. For the purpose of road
dynoing, coast-down testing and so on, +-5% on the weight should be
adequate.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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I designed one of those for Silverado but have never had the chance to build
it.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:08 AM
Subject: Maximising torque for racing
> G'day all - especially drag racing fans
>
> I had a thought re maximising torque. Drag race with a sepex motor, custom
> controller.
>
> Off the line, 100% field, ramp up the armature in current limit. Once the
> armature drops out of current limit, start to back off the field to hold
> the armature current in a 'window' a little below the current limit value.
>
> That'd keep the motor pulling as hard as you could go, all the way down
the
> strip. A "deep pockets" job, I guess, but cheaper than silver-winding a
> motor...
>
> Yes? No? Get back in my box and don't blather about things I don't know
about?
>
> What do you all think?
>
> Regards
>
> James
>
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I'd test capacity (amp-hours) instead.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 14, 2006, at 9:38 PM, Neon John wrote:
I've been thinking about that technique myself. How do you accurately
measure the footprint? I'm probably being paranoid about accuracy
since I've yet to have the opportunity to compare corner scales to
this type of measurement. What I was thinking was a hunk of plex
thick enough to support a wheel's weight, up on short stilts so that
the contact patch could be photographed.
The first thought that popped into my head was to use a piece of scrap
plex (I have some 1/8 inch stuff), a sheet of carbonless transfer paper
(ink side up) and a sheet of graph paper. I'd stack them together and
then use a scissor jack to just barely lift the suspension on that
corner. Then I would set the car back down onto the stack. Perhaps I
would get a readable transfer (perhaps I would get a better one if I
left out the plex and let the slight texture of my garage floor "push
up.")
I would be suspicious of this method with low profile tires (50 series
or less) because part of the load could be carried by the sidewall. I
would also suspect that you would want to include the open tread area
of the tire contact patch because the belts and tread are doing some
load spreading. But these are just random thoughts in my head - YMMV.
Paul G.
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At 12:39 AM 15/04/06 -0700, Joe Smalley wrote:
I designed one of those for Silverado but have never had the chance to build
it.
The peak voltage/current tracking field controller, or the silver wound
motor? :^)
> Off the line, 100% field, ramp up the armature in current limit. Once the
> armature drops out of current limit, start to back off the field to hold
> the armature current in a 'window' a little below the current limit value.
>
> That'd keep the motor pulling as hard as you could go, all the way down
the
> strip. A "deep pockets" job, I guess, but cheaper than silver-winding a
> motor...
I'm guessing the peak voltage/current tracking field controller? What
were/are your thoughts on it? Seems to me that to hold torque at maximum
(holding armature amps and volts at maximum by field control) should give
best acceleration, but what traps did you find whilst designing it? Or is
this a question to discuss on the EVtech list?
Regards
James
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On 4/15/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> He's in England so the NEC isn't really a concern.
Scotland actually!
> Cor, to squash a common mis-conception, a GFI does not need ground to
> detect ground faults. A GFI would work equally well with a
> center-tapped source. Here's a paper I authored several years ago
> that goes into the operation of a GFI in some detail.
>
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/gfi.pdf
>
Good article. EV earthing / protection practice should be quite
similar to RVs - in Europe at least, there's a whole set of guidelines
for safe power supplies on campsites, and plugging the EV into a
socket at your home is usually completely contrary to them.
One thing I learned recently (thanks to Matt on this list) is that EV
supplies should probably use a different "class" of RCD - the normal
kind are sensitive to sinusoidal fault currents, but in many EVs
leakage will involve a path to ground from the DC side of a
non-isolated charger. The different classes are mentioned in this
pdf:
http://www.electrical-installation.merlingerin.com/guide/pdf_files/F40-41.pdf
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Doesn't the CVT version get lower gas mileage than the standard?
If so, why would you want to use something that lowers your fuel efficiency?
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 09:50:57AM -0700, Stefan T. Peters wrote:
>>
>> The Honda Civic HX (non-hybrid) with their CVT (aka "Honda Multimatic")
>> has
>> been sold in the US since 1996... no reliability issues have appeared so
>> far.
>
> http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/hev/edta_vancouver_05_conference.pdf
>
> Read "Maintenance and Repairs Summary." It's a bit disconcerting.
>
> What the heck, I'll reproduce the relevant portion here :
>
> Civic & Insight - 6 continuously variable transmission (CVT) failures in
> 4
> vehicles @ 97k, 99k, 89k & 77k miles. Again @ 157k & 146k miles
>
> Based on this admittedly anecdotal evidence, I'd be a bit hesitant to use
> a
> Honda CVT in a conversion with a high-torque motor.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
Has anyone used (for any application) HAZE batteries?
http://www.hazebattery.com/index.html
Their ratings look good at first glance, they give a lot of data on their
site (minutes at x amps to 1.85VPC, etc). I may be doing a job needing a
stack of high-current batteries and theirs is one option available.
Thanks
James
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> a) What are NiCad's flooded with? I don't imagine you add water as with
> PbA batteries.
Potassium Hydroxide I think. And yes you do add water, just like PbA.
Make sure it's pure water though.
> b) What is the expected life span of a NiCad pack?
10, 15, 20 years or more, depends on how you treat them and which type you
use and when you decide they have reached end of life.
> c) Will my old Lestermatic PbA battery charger work with NiCads? (220v
> 40 amp charger)
The short answer is No. Not without a lot of additional circuitry that
pretty much adds up to a new charger.
> d) My (imperfect) understanding is that the NiCads will deliver the
> rated
> current right up until they are completely discharged unlike PbA's which
> drop in output even before the rated time (Puerket's Effect?) Am I
> understanding this correctly?
Not quite. Either battery will deliver rated current right up until they
are "dead" the difference is that PbA will drop in voltage during the
whole discharge period where Nicad's voltage stays almost even right up
until near the end.
> e) What effect does cold weather have on NiCad's vs. PbA batteries? Does
> the range still decrease? How much?
Cold weather (at least reasonable cold weather) has very little effect on
NiCads. I don't know how far below zero you have to go before the
electrolyte freezes, but if it does freeze then you'll probably damage the
battery.
They don't much like getting hot, however.
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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