EV Digest 5373
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Public Pay charging stations (Was: Re: Monster Garage)
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) corner weights was (Re: how to : determine weight from photo....)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Genny
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Remote control, was: EV mass market,
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Genny
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What car to buy for conversion(long)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: corner weights was (Re: how to : determine weight from photo....)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Re EV Safety, WAS: Monster Garage
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Remote control, was: EV mass market,
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC motors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Re EV Safety, WAS: Monster Garage
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Looking for a GEM Utility - Bay Area, CA
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: More Plug-in Prius question
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Regen question again :-(
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: What car to buy for conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Re EV Safety, WAS: Monster Garage
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: What car to buy for conversion
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Public Pay charging stations (Was: Re: Monster Garage)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Anyone know about status of EMB's ?
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Pack cooling/heating conduit
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John writes:
>
> It therefore would not be hard to sell this idea of selling power, I
> don't think. RVs are everywhere. EVs are below the radar but could
> ride on the backs of the RVers to get public charging stations. I
> don't see how Wallywould could NOT do it if they can be shown that
> they'll make money from the shopper AND from his vehicle. After all,
> they are now in the gas retailing business.
I have heard (but couldn't find cofirmation of the fact) that if a
business were to sell electricity it would be considered a public
utility and regulated as such. This would prevent many businesses
from installing coin-op charging stations. Does anyone know if this
is true or not?
Having the local electric utility install the coin-op station would
be an alternative. However, in Portland, Oregon, one of the local
electric utilities, Portland General Electric, cannot do this because
it violates a charter restriction that prohibits them from increasing
demand for electricity. Hopefully other utilities are not restricted
in this manner.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What if we lowered the air pressure on all 4 corners to 25 lbs, then
measured the height at each wheel.
Increase the pressure 5 lbs at a time to 45 and read the height around
the car in succession.
Would this give us a way ?
Or how about this?
jack the car off the ground and put 35 psi in all the tires using a
good guage. Let it stabilize temperature wise and re-check after 10 min
bleeding them all down to the exact same psi, say 30 psi.
Then set the car on the tires and measure the air pressure gain.
Turn the car 180, repeat and average readings. Could that be associated
with weight? (or do we still need area to get F from F=ma)
Earlier someone asked about the difference taller narrower tires would
make on this and it is theoretically zero difference. As the area
decreases the force per unit area increases so it cancels out. Before
you ask why people then go to such lengths to put wide meat on they're
race cars, it is becasue even though a skinny tire has the same amount
of grip as a wide one, the grip per unit area is small and the
temperature rise is very quick and the rubber is sensitive to heat
increaseing with heat to a point then rapidly going away. This contact
patch is also distorted during a turn and so all is not so easy. I kept
the pressures high here because the side wall flex is more of a
contributer than people may think. A lot of tuning is done in this area.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
>> [grounding the center of the 120vac output] violates the National
>> Electric Code, but I suspect most of these generators ignore them
>> anyway.
> Regardless, how does that violate the code as it pertains to a
> portable enerator?
The NEC Code is so complicated that the answer is subject to
interpretation.
To begin with, the code says it's scope is to regulate the wiring in and
on public and private buildings (including mobile homes, RVs, and
floating buildings); yards, carnivals, parking lots, and electrical
substations. The code does *not* regulate wiring on boats, trains, cars,
or aircraft; on industrial sites like mines, telephone or radio
equipment, or electrical distribution equipment or street lighting.
However, it then makes lots of exceptions, like the notorious Article
625 that regulates electric vehicles even though the Scope says the code
doesn't apply to vehicles.
So, the first question is *where* you are using your portable generator.
If you use it to supply emergency power to your home, the NEC applies.
If you use it on a constructin site or your boat, it does not apply.
> I haven't read the code in detail in a long time but I don't recall
> any requirement for a portable generator to be configured
> conventionally.
The Code defines which conductor should be grounded in Article 250-25.
a. For single-phase, 2-wire; ground one conductor.
b. For single-phase, 3-wire; ground neutral conductor.
c. (multiphase snipped)
Article 250-6 recognizes that a portable generator is a free-standing
device, and has no intrinsic ground of its own. You can use such a
generator to power permanently attached loads, or cord-connected loads
that are "double-insulated" without grounding.
But if you use this generator to power any equipment that has its own
grounding means, like the wiring in your house during a power outage,
the Code calls it a "separately derived AC System". Article 250-26
defines the grounding requirements for such systems. Basically, it says
you must ground the conductor specified in Article 250-25 (above), just
like a regualar AC system.
> I really like that idea of only 60 volts to ground. A far better
> solution than the GCFIs as we now have them, IMO. One would have to
> be quite determined to be electrocuted with 60 volts.
The NEC Code uses 50 volts as the maximum safe voltage. UL uses 30
volts. 60 volts is undoubtedly safer than 120 volts, but is still higher
than generally considered "safe".
The problem with having two different grounding systems is that
somewhere the two systems can collide. Perhaps you have *two* portable
generators, one that provides only 120vac and grounds the center-tap;
and another that provides 120/240vac and grounds the neutral. Now you
have 60 vac at full rated current between the "grounded" cases of two
electric devices plugged into them. Lay your metal electric drill on
your metal electric table saw and *ZAP*!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like a you want a Treo with the Palm pilot interface with WiFi.
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: How cool is that -
At your next party you pick up the remote, as someone for the time
and say "OK, time to fill up my car" and click the car's charger on.
15 years ago I worked for Philips Electronics, the 2-way remotes
for TV and VCR were pretty new in those days.
Today it is no problem to get feedback on a remote's display and
check (a car's) status from the couch if it is equipped with
this interface.
Sounds handy for the people in hot climate: while you finish your
drink on the terrace or as soon as you get in line for the register
in the supermarket you grab the car remote, click the A/C on
and when you get in the car 5 minutes later it already is at
a comfortable temperature.
The remote communication should not be limited to charging, but
also diagnostics, (past) trip info & energy use, and so on.
Battery status (low battery detect, balancing and other BMS info)
and component temperatures and (past) fault codes should be
accessible, so when hooking the remote to a PC, the car can be
diagnosed from a distance and a detailed report can be made.
And while we are throwing up ideas - why not have an intercom
between car and remote? Works like a 2-way radio. Now we have
some serious "Kit" (Knight rider) brainwaves.... Better stop.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 12:24 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV mass market,
Seriously though, about the remote. How cool, you plug the car in and the
remote upstairs on the coffee table or in the kitchen, in your pocket,
whatever,,, Shows the state of charge in a bar graph and percent. Another
piece of technology already available is ampacity of the battery, directly
tells you the age/life expectancy of the battery. (some of you will say I'm
wacked, but it's already here and I am working on interfacing that data to
marine CAN-Bus)
Mark Grasser
Subject: EV mass market, was: Monster Garage
> John,
>
>> These sorts of people are NOT going to EVER do
>> anything any more technical than plug something
>> in and click the remote.
---------------------------------
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2ยข/min
with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> This does have my curiosity up. Your ordinary house current is 240
> volts like England, right?
>
> If so, does that mean that tools that operate from these center-tapped
> construction generators are specially made just for generator
> operation? Or maybe use step-down transformers to run the tools from
> utility power?
>
> I'm now very curious as to how all this fits together.
My guess is that most portable generators are built offshore, and their
biggest market is OUTSIDE the USA. Much of the rest of the world uses
230vac power, where they ground the center tap, not one conductor. So,
the generators we get in the USA have the grounded center tap.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might want to do a little bit of searching through the EV photo
album ( http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ ) and the archives of this list
to get a feel for what it takes to get such range while also getting 5
people capacity.
Factors that will come into play are the terrain you are traveling,
speed, acceleration,temperature, In town charging capability.
If it is 30 highway miles the aerodynamics of the truck are gonna cost
more range than if you used a slippery sedan like a mazda 323 or hyandi
excel or honda accord.
If the 30 miles is rural flat but not highway, then your dad is probably
on to something with a truck, Maybe find a midsize extended cab,
short-bed like toyota or ford have. the newer ~90 and up will have
better aero than the earlier models in general, I think, You can look
for drag coef on google but that number has to be combined with frontal
area to be meaningful. Look thru the last 10 digests and methods of
measuring that have recently been discussed.
If you can't charge in town and there are hills, and you live in a cold
region then it will take a LOT of money to achive this.
Lets get some numbers going for you.
I have a 300zx that I converted, it was 3000 lbs before conversion, I
took out about 500 but put in 1000 lbs of AGM batteries. I would say
that I have max range in town driveing of 24 miles, but I have only did
that once and i was worried. If I had used floodies like the 300zx steve
clunn has for sale at the moment, it would have more range but less
sporty acceleration(tradeoff number 1) In town I am getting a dismal
425wh/mile 250wh/mile seems like a good aerodynamic car number and
things like the GM EV 1 are below 200wh/mile
So lets use 300wh/mile as a goal
30 + 30 + 10 = 70 miles range
70mile * 300wh/mile = 21kwh
Lead acid batteries:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/8679/battery.html (use the
calculators on the botom of this page )
When looking at lead acid batteries the rate in which you pull out the
energy determines the amount of aH you can pull. Most lead acid
batteries are rated in the 20hr rate, that is what amphours you get if
you can draw an amperage so low as to last 20 hours. At EV loads we need
a 1 hour rate.
orbitals are 50ah at the 20hr rate but are about 38ah at the 1 hr
rate.(I hear 34 is a better number)
so each orbital has 34ah * 12V or 408wh but we can use all of it, it
will damage the battery if we go below 80% DOD(degree of discharge) all
the time. 80% is 326Wh
21000 / 326 is 64 batteries! that is 2500 lbs of batteries. : - (
That much weight will effect the usage during acceleration and is
difficult except in a truck to handle.
see the red bestie http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html
Trade acceleration for range by using 6V flooded batteries and a lower
voltage system
Reduce your need by finding an RV store or somewhere in town you can
charge, even if you can get home without rechargeing you will want to
try to top off to extend the life of the pack.
What you want is on the edge of doable, a challenge to be sure, but not
impossible.
There are lots of options from AC motors to lithium polymer cells that
have the energy of that 2500lb pack in about 400 lbs, but battery
managment systems are new and so are the cells(expensive, like 30K)
This post is getting long, so I'll let you play with some of the numbers
and hit us back with more questions later.
PS, about the solar, Forget it on the car. The best panals I know of are
currently at 200W per panel and these are 4feet by 2.5 feet So 2 on the
roof would cost 1000 for the panels, 1000 for a MPPT inverter and could
in 5 hours of parked in full sun generate 6 miles of range. Even that is
highly optimistic. Put solar on the house or carport.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 10:09 AM
Subject: corner weights was (Re: how to : determine weight from photo....)
> What if we lowered the air pressure on all 4 corners to 25 lbs, then
> measured the height at each wheel.
> Increase the pressure 5 lbs at a time to 45 and read the height around
> the car in succession.
>
> Would this give us a way ?
>
> Or how about this?
> jack the car off the ground and put 35 psi in all the tires using a
> good guage. Let it stabilize temperature wise and re-check after 10 min
> bleeding them all down to the exact same psi, say 30 psi.
>
> Then set the car on the tires and measure the air pressure gain.
>
> Turn the car 180, repeat and average readings. Could that be associated
> with weight? (or do we still need area to get F from F=ma)
>
> Earlier someone asked about the difference taller narrower tires would
> make on this and it is theoretically zero difference. As the area
> decreases the force per unit area increases so it cancels out. Before
> you ask why people then go to such lengths to put wide meat on they're
> race cars, it is becasue even though a skinny tire has the same amount
> of grip as a wide one, the grip per unit area is small and the
> temperature rise is very quick and the rubber is sensitive to heat
> increaseing with heat to a point then rapidly going away. This contact
> patch is also distorted during a turn and so all is not so easy. I kept
> the pressures high here because the side wall flex is more of a
> contributer than people may think. A lot of tuning is done in this area.
You balance the tires in a race car front to rear using different width
tires, compounds and air pressure. I have a CanAm mid engine race car that
weighs 1300 lbs. The rear weight is 1000 lbs with 16 inch wide tires with
very little tread pattern for wet and dry surfaces which has 64 square
inches of actual rubber contact, subtracting all the spaces.
This is about 16 lbs of vehicle weight per sq.in. of tire contact.
The front weighs 300 lbs on a set of 12 inch soft compound tires with a
large spacing of tread pattern. This gives me 16 squares inches of true
rubber contact.
This gives me about 18 lbs of vehicle weight per sq.in. on the front.
The adhesive of traction is about balance out, so when you do a 4 wheel
drift threw the corners, the car will not spin out as easy as if you had the
same size tires front and rear.
Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Bob, you're preaching to the choir. I wasn't discussing my wife's
> experience/rationality/etc. I was merely commenting on the fact here
> was an intelligent non-EV person who watched the show (she's WAY
> smarter than I am), and that was the biggest impression that she
> got from it, how unsafe EVs are.
Mostly, people are afraid of the unknown. If they know the consequences
of some action, they are much more comfortable with it; even a *bad*
real-world consequence is not as bad as the worst-case scenario your
imagination can dream up!
I've often thought it would be great fun to do a "Fire Marshall Bill" or
"Red Green" type of informational video on EV safety. For folks that
aren't familiar with these characters; they show an "expert"
demonstrating something. But things don't go as planned, and he winds up
demonstrating what *NOT* to do -- and why!
For example, the lecturer says (gesturing with a wrench), "You have to
be very careful not to short a battery because... err, because it runs
down or something. Anyway, I'm a real expert, so I would never do such a
thing. Now, let's look at the motor..." At this point he lays the wrench
on top of the battery.
Sparks fly. Wrench heats up, starts to smoke. Lecturer reaches for
wrench, burns his hand. "Yeow!" Stands there nursing his hand. Wrench
gets red hot. Battery starts boiling/steaming/smoking. Then there's a
KABOOM as battery top blows off, throwing acid and debris into
lecturer's back.
Cut... Next scene is lecturer with bandaged hand, putting electrical
tape on his warped wrench, which has a big piece of it burned away.
"Like I said, you should tape the handles of any tools you use on your
batteries, so this doesn't happen. Turns around to show ruined battery,
incidentally revealing that the acid has eaten out the back of his
pants.
It's the sort of visual that people will REMEBER. Now they know some of
the consequences of shorting a battery. But by doing it in a humorous
way, we've taken some of the fear out of it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I made a "car remote" last year. It is based around SMS text messages
using a GSM phone module. Also, it calls your mobile when the charge
is complete. Calling it back would switch on the heater, etc..
I was thinking of developing it but didn't really get any interest.
Since then I have made a different device (an info display for the PSA
EVs) which has an "expansion option" of using short range radio link
to do the same features. This device also has RS232 interface so it
could talk to an E-Meter, OR it can be populated to speak "Evilbus"
instead.
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2/myev.html
On 4/15/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How cool is that -
> At your next party you pick up the remote, as someone for the time
> and say "OK, time to fill up my car" and click the car's charger on.
>
> 15 years ago I worked for Philips Electronics, the 2-way remotes
> for TV and VCR were pretty new in those days.
> Today it is no problem to get feedback on a remote's display and
> check (a car's) status from the couch if it is equipped with
> this interface.
>
> Sounds handy for the people in hot climate: while you finish your
> drink on the terrace or as soon as you get in line for the register
> in the supermarket you grab the car remote, click the A/C on
> and when you get in the car 5 minutes later it already is at
> a comfortable temperature.
>
> The remote communication should not be limited to charging, but
> also diagnostics, (past) trip info & energy use, and so on.
> Battery status (low battery detect, balancing and other BMS info)
> and component temperatures and (past) fault codes should be
> accessible, so when hooking the remote to a PC, the car can be
> diagnosed from a distance and a detailed report can be made.
>
> And while we are throwing up ideas - why not have an intercom
> between car and remote? Works like a 2-way radio. Now we have
> some serious "Kit" (Knight rider) brainwaves.... Better stop.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mark Grasser
> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 12:24 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: EV mass market,
>
>
> Seriously though, about the remote. How cool, you plug the car in and the
> remote upstairs on the coffee table or in the kitchen, in your pocket,
> whatever,,, Shows the state of charge in a bar graph and percent. Another
> piece of technology already available is ampacity of the battery, directly
> tells you the age/life expectancy of the battery. (some of you will say I'm
> wacked, but it's already here and I am working on interfacing that data to
> marine CAN-Bus)
>
>
>
> Mark Grasser
> Subject: EV mass market, was: Monster Garage
>
>
> > John,
> >
> >> These sorts of people are NOT going to EVER do
> >> anything any more technical than plug something
> >> in and click the remote.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan Smith wrote:
> I've found that the people that can afford it buy AC motors instead
> of DC. Is it really worth it? Are the AC motors that much better than
> the DC ones?
AC motors and controllers are a little better and cost a lot more.
Whether it's worth it or not depends on your priorities. For example,
would you pay an extra couple thousand dollars to get 10% more range?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/15/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've often thought it would be great fun to do a "Fire Marshall Bill" or
> "Red Green" type of informational video on EV safety. For folks that
> aren't familiar with these characters; they show an "expert"
> demonstrating something. But things don't go as planned, and he winds up
> demonstrating what *NOT* to do -- and why!
That reminds me of this German safety video. It features an EV as
well, a forklift.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4906048265085773591&q=forklift+safety&pl=true
:-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might be better off designing a vehicle to meet your range & weight
needs. Sounds heavy. Calculate distance needed to travel. How much will
the freezer unit weight? HOw will you keep it cold. You need to calculate
this. A propane freezer might be needed along with the electric truck you
will use. The NEV might work but you really need to figure things out
first. Let us know what you are up to with the weight of the freezer and we
might be better able to help you. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Mac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Looking for a GEM Utility - Bay Area, CA
I need a long bed utility for my business.
I sell ice cream, so the freezer would go on the back & we'd double up the
batteries to extend range & give it more power.
Suggestions .. thoughts .. ideas are welcome!
Thanks,
Mac
From: bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: evlist <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for a GEM Utility - Bay Area, CA
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
[IMHO: why?]
nevs discussion group has nevs for sale on it
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/NEVs/
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
AFAIK, typical car A/C compressors pull something like 1-2 HorsePower,
so this could become a problem if you are trying to charge from a
120-Volt outlet in some reasonable amount of time.
Just remember that 1-2 HP figure does change depending on how much
cooling is required. In recirculate (or Max) cooling mode the amount of
heat being extracted by the system falls as the car cools down, until
the AC is only pumping out heat gained thru solar and conduction thru
the chassis. The lowers the demand on the compressor.
If may be actually more effective to try and keep the car cool while
your shopping, than try to cool it down rapidly right before you
return. Peak demand could be reduced.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No-one commented on the idea I posted about a simple regen for typical series
dc and zilla set up.
I am still wondering if this would work but also I have some more questions.
Here is the circuit.
B+______________________________________________
| __|__
| /_\ D1 ____
| | / \
| _______ o____|________A1__[ ]__A2______B-
|__B+_| zilla |M+___S1-field--S2___o==== K1 \____/ |
|_______|________________________o_________________________________|
||
__||____
|hairball|
|________|
| |
|-----|-----------|
/\/\/\/------------/\/\/\/-
PB6 throttle PB6 brake
12V----NO----------------NC-------------------K1coil-----gnd
D1 - SD1053C18S20L $127 at digikey 1000A 1800V diode
K1 - SPDT SW201 $175 evparts (would this be lrg enough?
Intended theory of operation:
During motoring K1 is in the NC position connected to A1 and current
flows from the zilla thru the field then the armature to pack neg.
D1 is reverse biased so it doesn't allow battery to feed arnmature.
When the throttle is released the NO switch on the throttle pot-box
closes and when the user presses on the brake pedal, a second potbox is
used. The NC closed switch is allowed to close as the braking throttle
is applied. K1 is pulled in and current begins to flow from zilla thru
the field to pack negative.
This fixed field is crossed by the armature coils and voltage is
producted and mechanically rectified byt the existing commutator.
This voltage, if high enough will cause D1 to conduct and push DC into
the Pack. since k1 has isolated A1 from the ground or the field.
Questions :
First of all can the zilla power the field only like this? since some (?1/2)
the inductance will be missing will it blow up or burn out the field or just
reduce it's duty cycle based on the limits stored. (I was thinking of putting a
series resistor for the second pot-box to make full braking only 1/2 throttle
or only using a part of it's travel)
With this scenario, will the advance on the motor still be an issue? seems like
it may.
What kind of voltage are we talking about, I am trying to imagine the motor as
modeling a transformer but the rate the coils pass under the field must make a
difference (analog to freq?). There is something like 10 coils passing under
the field at any time They are in series but are 1 turn (? jim?) each, it seems
that the voltage is generated by a 4 X (13:10 ) so the voltage will be less
than the field voltage.
How does the load work in with this? Will the voltage limit at 170V X 13:10 =
130V? OR will the voltage climb until it reaches the diode conduction point and
discharge intot he batteries, (exceeding the 170V flash over of the brushes in
the process)
I can imagine the voltage in the field will rise above the battery when the
transistor shuts off.
Could a small 120V hawker pack capture the surge of regen then drive the PFC to
put it in the main pack slowly over time.?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan Smith wrote:
> My dad and I want to make an ev.
Good for you! Welcome to the EV list. We're here to help. You'll
probably go from no idea to too many ideas -- but that's a start!
> We drive about 30 miles into town 30 out and then some around town,
> so we'll need quite a bit of range unless we put solar panels on the
> car or something. The question is: what car should we get. There are usually
> 5 of us in the family at one time.
That's a tough scenario to do on a budget. I'd try for the smallest,
lightest truck you can find with adequate seating. Something like a
10-20 year old imported "king cab" pickup with a back seat. Then cram in
as many golf cart batteries as you can fit. It will take at least 20 if
you drive slow and careful; more if you want to go faster.
Solar cells are interesting, but a waste of time. If you get them,
install them on the roof at home, not on your EV. Use their energy to
run things in your home, or to charge the EV.
If you can find a good place to recharge in town, it will be a lot
easier. Easier still if you can leave a second pack of batteries in town
on charge, and swap packs for the trip home. For example, if grandma
lives in town and you always visit her, you could charge there or swap
battery packs.
> We don't need a van and were thinking more like a five-seater.
Most cars have pathetic weight-carrying capacity. Put in 5 people and a
few bags of groceries, and there is no weight-carrying capacity left for
batteries.
But vans are basically trucks, and so are a reasonable way to start.
Successful long-range EVs have been built using the old VW microvans;
they are small and light, but can carry a *lot* of people and weight.
Batteries are heavy, but small. If you use one of the truck-based vans,
20-30 batteries will easily fit under the seats, under the hood, and in
the rear. The truck-based vans will be much easier to modify for extra
load capacity, as 1-ton and 2-ton versions were built.
Newer minivans aren't as good, because they don't have a frame are use
car-based parts; but they are still workable with some extra effort.
Chrysler built EV versions of their minivans that could meet your
requirements.
Hope this helps!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OT: There's a real video floating around the web right now of a gun safety
expert giving a gun safety presentation to a group of school kids. He's
just said something like, "I'm the only one here right now qualified to
handle this weapon." Then he shoots himself in the foot.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 10:18 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Re EV Safety, WAS: Monster Garage
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Bob, you're preaching to the choir. I wasn't discussing my wife's
> experience/rationality/etc. I was merely commenting on the fact here
> was an intelligent non-EV person who watched the show (she's WAY
> smarter than I am), and that was the biggest impression that she
> got from it, how unsafe EVs are.
Mostly, people are afraid of the unknown. If they know the consequences
of some action, they are much more comfortable with it; even a *bad*
real-world consequence is not as bad as the worst-case scenario your
imagination can dream up!
I've often thought it would be great fun to do a "Fire Marshall Bill" or
"Red Green" type of informational video on EV safety. For folks that
aren't familiar with these characters; they show an "expert"
demonstrating something. But things don't go as planned, and he winds up
demonstrating what *NOT* to do -- and why!
For example, the lecturer says (gesturing with a wrench), "You have to
be very careful not to short a battery because... err, because it runs
down or something. Anyway, I'm a real expert, so I would never do such a
thing. Now, let's look at the motor..." At this point he lays the wrench
on top of the battery.
Sparks fly. Wrench heats up, starts to smoke. Lecturer reaches for
wrench, burns his hand. "Yeow!" Stands there nursing his hand. Wrench
gets red hot. Battery starts boiling/steaming/smoking. Then there's a
KABOOM as battery top blows off, throwing acid and debris into
lecturer's back.
Cut... Next scene is lecturer with bandaged hand, putting electrical
tape on his warped wrench, which has a big piece of it burned away.
"Like I said, you should tape the handles of any tools you use on your
batteries, so this doesn't happen. Turns around to show ruined battery,
incidentally revealing that the acid has eaten out the back of his
pants.
It's the sort of visual that people will REMEBER. Now they know some of
the consequences of shorting a battery. But by doing it in a humorous
way, we've taken some of the fear out of it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Alan, welcome to the list!
My baby is Civics. I can't say 5 adults fit
comfortably, but I have "been there, done that with
this model." Feel free to read website (below).
peace,
--- Alan Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> My dad and I want to make an ev. I've read Jerry
> Halstead's "journal" and am
> ready to rip into a car, but don't have one yet. We
> drive about 30 miles
> into town 30 out and then some around town, so we'll
> need quite a bit of
> range unless we put solar panels on the car or
> something. The question is:
> what car should we get. There are usually 5 of us in
> the family at one time.
> We don't need a van and were thinking more like a
> five-seater. Our budget is
> nothing special. My dad says we might want to get a
> pick-up because it could
> handle all the batteries but then we all wouldn't
> fit in a 2/3-seater
> pick-up. The car won't be new because we're going to
> rip out the engine, but
> it should have a good body. Of course, you all
> already know all this because
> you're ev fanatics.
>
> All ideas and suggestions will be appreciated, Alan
> Smith
>
> --
> // Quotes from yours truly -------------------------
> "You don't forget, you just don't remember."
> "Maturity resides in the mind."
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> I have heard (but couldn't find cofirmation of the fact) that if a
> business were to sell electricity it would be considered a public
> utility and regulated as such. This would prevent many businesses
> from installing coin-op charging stations. Does anyone know if this
> is true or not?
Yes, this is true. Long, long ago, the power companies demanded monopoly
agreements with virtually every community before they would wire the
town to "the grid". These agreements still stand. They are occasionally
used to stop some "upstart" from daring to try to sell the excess power
he generates with his own generator, windmill, or PV array to anyone but
the power company.
However, there are ways around them. RV parks, marinas, and the
"convenience" outlets on parking meters for engine block heaters all
provide "free" electricity -- but you pay for the parking place or right
to plug in. Some areas have local ordinances to let landlords resell
electricity to tenants.
WalMart could label the fee for using the outlets anything they like
*except* for calling it a charge for electricity, and the power company
would be powerless to object.
Of course, if utilities had any brains, they would offer a coin-operated
electric outlet themselves! Same concept as a pay phone, but for
electricity.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hello james, bob and bruce
yep .. there are problems .. which have been addressed too ..
1. the high rpm's 60,000+ .. these have material strength issues .. carbon
fibre is being used now
2. the gyro effect .. hysterisis .. this has been solved by using a pair
spinning in opposite directions
3. the bearings .. magnetic bearings have been used to overcome the
limitations of metal bearings
4. there are other problems which have been overcome too :
a) slowing down because of air .. the flywheels are enclosed in vacuum'ed
containers
b) mechanical clutches not suitable .. this has been resolved by building
the rotor into the flywheel .. has only permanent magnets
c) storing and extracting power .. this is done by using the alternator as a
motor to give it the spinning force
d) flywheel sizes .. this has been overcome by reducing the dia and making
solid hollow cylinder instead of a wheel
..peekay
(can we discuss this please .. we all know about why it won't work .. quest
is for how it will work !)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: Anyone know about status of EMB's ?
> I seem to recall Honda did a big study on these. A couple big problems
occurred. One of which was the affects of handling of the vehicle. The
flywheel would cause hysteresis and try to keep the vehicle in a straight
line. The another was failure of the bearing and decline of efficiency over
a short period. The cost was very expensive because of the safety shell they
had to keep it in in case of catastrophic failure ( flywheel flys apart).
They were trying for a hybrid combo electric vehicle with Zinc/Air battery
and Flywheel to maintain a charge.
>
> James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: At 09:26 PM 13/04/06
+0530, peekay wrote:
> >ElectroMechanicalBatteries
> >
> >these are basically flywheels which spin at very very high rpm's
> >
> >65,000 or so
> >
> >energy is stored by spinning them up
> >
> >they supply electric power by generating power from
> >an AC generator built into them .. very compact ..
> >
> >only if they went commercial .. maybe they have !
>
> G'day peekay - and all
>
> I don't know as to the speed, but Cat are offering a customer of mine an
> "uninterruptible generator" that uses a flywheel to give 10 to 15 seconds
> at 850kVa to carry through the diesel generator start-up time. Seems that
> this is as big as Cat can offer in a UPS generator.
>
> I believe that this is 1930s technology, though.
>
> Regards
>
> James
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
rates.
>
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Coroplast (corrugated polypropylene, correx, corroflute, etc.) is
available in 2, 4, and 10 millimeter thickness. 3mm and 6mm are less
common. A 4'x8' sheet of 4mm runs $15 to $30 depending on the
supplier/color. Smaller pieces can be much cheaper due to shipping
restrictions. You can get it FREE from gas stations/grocery stores (old
signs) or after an election - vote for free plastic!.
You can use it to block off grilles, as a belly pan, flexible spacer, wire
race, etc. It's also used to make R/C airplanes, hamster cages, USPS boxes
for sorting mail, as shipping/packaging material, etc.
Instead of layering 3 or 4 pieces between batteries, take a larger piece
and fold it into a rectangular tube. Use a philips screw driver to "score"
a line before folding (very helpful if folding across corrugations). Slots
can be cut by removing the plastic between corrugations. If you made a
tube that stuck up higher than the surrounding batteries you could mount a
fan directly to it - come to think of it, I might need to do this on my
battery boxes :)
/----\ /--------------\
| | | open hole |
F | | to below! |
A | \--- --------/
N | /-------\ FAN
| | |Battery|
| | | | (top view)
| | \-------/
| | ===========
| | /-------\
\ / |Battery|
| |
\-------/
(side view)
Corro will warp when it gets warm (in a car in the sun), so store it flat.
Cuts with a utility knife, heavy scissors, X-acto knife, etc. Gluing can
be tricky - Goop is probably the easiest:
Goop/shoe goo - slather it on!
Gorilla glue/ProBond/poly glue - rough the surface & mist with water. If
possible, poke lots of little holes for the glue to seep through and
create small "rivets". Poly glue expands significantly with water.
Cyanoacrylate/CA/Super glue - Scrub surface with mineral spirits or
"flash" with a propane torch to drive out manufacturing oils - be careful!
Results can be spotty depending on age of glue, humidity, etc.
Test glue a few pieces first. With poly glue or CA the corro should rip
before the pieces come apart!
Here are some sources and websites with good tips/tricks for working with
Corro.
www.spadtothebone.com (see corro hinge tool, supplier list)
www.harborsales.net (2,4,6,10mm coroplast)
Good luck!
Adrian
--- End Message ---
