EV Digest 5384
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Angle Iron to Chassis
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: longest range?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: sheilding for zilla wiring
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Remote control, was: EV mass market,
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: longest range?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Angle Iron to Chassis
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: longest range?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Some problems to solve
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Some Lithium Polymer to experiment with (BMS)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: sheilding for zilla wiring
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Switched Capacitor Equalization of Long Strings WAS: Some pro blems to
solve
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: longest range?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Monster Garage electric dragster episode
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Ok boy charger!
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Questions that should get me going, I hope
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: sheilding for zilla wiring
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> While most EVers add a vacuum pump, I took a different tact.
> I removed the original vacuum booster and master cylinder,
> and replaced them with a non-vacuum-assisted master cylinder
> from a 1987 Honda Civic.
Bill, I'm very interested in any details you can provide about what was
involved in grafting the Honda master cylinder onto the Metro. I've got
a GM vacuum pump on mine at the moment, but would prefer the simpler and
more elegant manual brake solution.
Thanks,
Roger.
PS: nice clean battery installation! Is it just me, or are the threaded
posts on the Thundersky cells *really* long? I suppose it is a personal
preference thing, but I like the look of button-head stainless Allen
bolts rather than long studs for that sort of thing...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan Smith wrote:
I have to say I'm immpressed with what people have gotten.
Now, how do you do it?
Very easy. Paid a lot of money.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> For my last EV, I took the GIF's of supplier's logos and had
> a printer print them in color on sticky backed vinyl. Worked
> great, and added some needed accents to the car. Not so much
> as to be ostentatious, but enough to make people ask questions.
I plan to do the same for mine, the EV equivalent of the Hooker header,
Accel/MSD ignition, Edelbrock manifold, etc. stickers you see in the
rear/quarter windows of our ICE counterparts.
Any chance you (or anyone else) have good quality logos in electronic
form for some of the popular components (e.g. Kilovac, Optima, DCP,
etc.) and/or the popular parts suppliers (eg. EVParts, Canadian Electric
Vehicles, etc.)?
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This all (and more) is being implemented in my BMS system.
You can call (or point your browser to) your car and get
the state of things from it. The car will call you as well
to report state of events. More on this later.
Victor
Cor van de Water wrote:
How cool is that -
At your next party you pick up the remote, as someone for the time
and say "OK, time to fill up my car" and click the car's charger on.
15 years ago I worked for Philips Electronics, the 2-way remotes
for TV and VCR were pretty new in those days.
Today it is no problem to get feedback on a remote's display and
check (a car's) status from the couch if it is equipped with
this interface.
Sounds handy for the people in hot climate: while you finish your
drink on the terrace or as soon as you get in line for the register
in the supermarket you grab the car remote, click the A/C on
and when you get in the car 5 minutes later it already is at
a comfortable temperature.
The remote communication should not be limited to charging, but
also diagnostics, (past) trip info & energy use, and so on.
Battery status (low battery detect, balancing and other BMS info)
and component temperatures and (past) fault codes should be
accessible, so when hooking the remote to a PC, the car can be
diagnosed from a distance and a detailed report can be made.
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, Rich - I haven't heard that you run the quarter in 8+ seconds yet -
THAT is what makes Dennis special!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
> Just what makes you think you are so Special Dennis???
> The rest of us have to make our own BMS...
> Why not you???
>
> Those little modular chargers are in effect a prettey Good BMS. So you
> already have what you need for Lead.
>
> The Lion stuff needs a BMS or a LOT of little chargers.. Heck a stack of
> those Z28 Lions and 6 chargers.. and well Looky here..
> You too can play with Lions...
> That should be simple enough for you.
> It might take you more than 15 minutes to Bilk charge....I expect..
>
> Madman
>
>
>
>
> \----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Current Eliminator News/no hi power batts.this year
> . Dennis Berube >>
> > ***To much work and money for me to just rebreak my own record.At this
> point
> > I should not be paying for batteries or the bms. D.Berube
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmmm,
> Very easy. Paid a lot of money.
Not always.
My S10 truck's range is 60 miles with careful Freeway driving
and I have about $2200 in batteries (almost 1800 lbs) and
these are sealed, not flooded.
I know that I could have at least doubled this range, but
the investment would have risen to well into the 5 digits.
Since I do not have money coming out my ears and it is my
first pack (which I am supposed to kill prematurely)
I opted for the best "cheap" solution I could find.
If I have time, I may try to find a 35 MPH route that allows
me to test the range at low speeds, but that will likely
take me two hours of driving or more, once I have spotted a
suitable route. (I hate to make 30 laps around the block)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:54 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: longest range?
Alan Smith wrote:
> I have to say I'm immpressed with what people have gotten.
>
> Now, how do you do it?
Very easy. Paid a lot of money.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
I'll be using Victor's clampers on these cells. The clampers are designed
to straddle the cell tops, and are 2.125 inches tall. These tall post allos
the clamper to be guided straight down onto the cell, minimizing the
possibility of one clamper touching the other.
I might, however, have another way to mount the clampers, so there's a
chance I'll be replacing the long threads with standard M6 x 1.0 bolts.
Bill Dennis
>PS: nice clean battery installation! Is it just me, or are the threaded
>posts on the Thundersky cells *really* long? I suppose it is a personal
>preference thing, but I like the look of button-head stainless Allen
>bolts rather than long studs for that sort of thing...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Hmmmm,
Very easy. Paid a lot of money.
Not always.
Sorry, always. You *always* get what you paid for.
My S10 truck's range is 60 miles with careful Freeway driving
and I have about $2200 in batteries (almost 1800 lbs) and
these are sealed, not flooded.
Congrads, but 60 miles, while good, is not an impressive
number. This is just reinforces you got what you paid for.
You didn't pay $20k, so you didn't get impressive 200 miles.
I know that I could have at least doubled this range, but
the investment would have risen to well into the 5 digits.
Since I do not have money coming out my ears and it is my
first pack (which I am supposed to kill prematurely)
I opted for the best "cheap" solution I could find.
You made right choice then. My comment still stands though.
You paid *only* $2200 and accordingly got only 60 miles
with careful driving.
Jukka paid far more and might have gotten near 150 miles range
with casual driving. Yes, you may sometimes get better or worse
deal, but there is no doubt money/range relationship is very clear.
If I have time, I may try to find a 35 MPH route that allows
me to test the range at low speeds, but that will likely
take me two hours of driving or more, once I have spotted a
suitable route. (I hate to make 30 laps around the block)
That is all OK and have little to do with general notion
that you pay for range, and naturally, lot of money for
lot of range (that is if you want normally handled car,
I know you can have a la Red Beastie lead sled built to
demonstrate a range number rather than be a normal commuter,
but it's not exactly what most people would want to drive).
(Don't get me wrong, I respect Dick Finley's creation very much).
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most everything I read about these batteries is impressive except the
cost ant the available cell sizes.
Is there any reasonable prospect that cost will come down to perhaps 1/10th
of present sizes?
Are there presently any cells large enough for an EV battery pack without
using thousands of cells? Are large cells likely to be available in the future?
I don't think these batteries have any real future in EVs unless costs come
way down and larger cells become available.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That was what my first week was like with the regulators, I finally
spent a whole saturday and charged the low ones till they were close
then let the regs do their thing. I now have a few dead regs, but the
batteries stay balanced. I am thinking now that the equalize dip switch
is only for a flooded pack. Becasue the resistance changes with SOC, if
they are way out of wack, they can't be brought in with the small amount
of current a regulator bypasses ina reasonable amount of time. period. I
tried :-(
If you regularly have an out of balance pack, by far the easiest would
be to increase the amount the regs can bypass with an external load.
They are made for that having an extra mosfet in there and that will
allow you to bring them in much quicker at the expense of some wasted
power. I think once the pack stabilizes, the waste will be small.
The only other thing I can suggest if they are just stubborn, is to
rearrange all the batteries so the largest capacity cells are grouped
togather at the bottom , then charge that group seperately, by
disconnecting and re-programming the PFC, like once a month. Or badboy
with manners the 10 largest.
or maybe...
Make some big jumpers if your pack is splitable in two, so the pack can
be reconfigurged into to equal strings, one of the smaller batteries and
one of the larger batteries. I think the regs would still be valid as
full batteries in the smaller capacity string will transfer to the other
before they come up to voltage, (just make sure your dc-dc is off
line.) Your emeter would still be accurat if you have the 500V prescaler.
If I remember correctly, Some of the manufactures chargeing
recommendations are to get you to the end of the warantee period "for
certain" but at the expense of overall cycle life.
BTW the first battery to flash green is FULL, it could be your "Weakest"
not "strongest" (unless it is a resistor)
The first battery to go red is probably the weakest, but the last to
turn off the red is your strongest. I think we must look at both points.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have they ever fixed the life span issues? How does LiPo compare?
Danny
Tom Shay wrote:
Most everything I read about these batteries is impressive except the
cost ant the available cell sizes.
Is there any reasonable prospect that cost will come down to perhaps 1/10th
of present sizes?
Are there presently any cells large enough for an EV battery pack without
using thousands of cells? Are large cells likely to be available in the future?
I don't think these batteries have any real future in EVs unless costs come
way down and larger cells become available.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"FMA Kokam LiPo battery packs have been replaced by the new Cellpro
line of LiPo batteries. The size and weight of the packs has remained
about the same. The new packs have an added cell tap connector. This
allows the individual cells of a pack to be monitored, and for the
pack to be balanced."
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/kokam.htm
"Charging process is automatic"
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/chargers_lipoly.htm
"Thunder Power "Pro Lite" 1320 mAh packs come pre-wired with a plug
that mates with the 2-5 cell LiPoly cell balancer "
"NEW! 2100 mAh "Pro Lite" Lithium Poly Cells with cell balance connector,
discharge at up to 31 amps continuous"
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/thunderpower.htm
"Best? All Poly-Quest "Twenty" brand lipoly packs can be discharged at
a rate 20 times their capacity. Example: a 1200 mAh (1.2 Amp hour)
pack can be discharged at 24 amps and a 3700 mAh pack at 74 amps
continuous. This is NOT the peak discharge rate; it is the rate that
these packs can be discharged at CONTINUOUSLY."
"Overcharging a Lithium battery is dangerous, it can ruin the battery
and can cause a fire. PCM Guard monitors each cell in the pack and
will disconnect the battery pack from the charger if any cell exceeds
4.2 volts. Order the PCM Guard that matches the number of cells in
series in your pack."
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/polyquest.htm
I thought this was fitting:
"I used to like pattern aerobatics with nice glow engine powered
airplanes. Then I got into electric flight in the 80's because at that
time it was more of a challenge, ie; it didn't work very well, and it
was fun to see if you could get the heavy underpowered things to
actually fly. "
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/employee.htm
It's easy to make a gas car fast.. A bit more challenging(fun) to do
it with an electric..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
Ralph Merwin and I have discussed pretty much the same thing with his
batteries.
Are you running your regulators "loadless"?
>From the pics on the Manzanita Micro web site it looks like Rich is using a
Wakefield 637-15ABP heatsink for the internal load. This is rated for 65°C
rise at 6W dissipation. I believe he targets shutting down the reg at
100°C, so if the ambient of the reg is about 35°C (warm day under cover?)
were about there for temp rise. So the reg can dissipate 6W. Being that
heatsink is not vertically mounted like it is designed for this may be a bit
optimistic even. So if the battery is at 14.8V then the reg can bypass 0.4A
continuously. I'm certainly not a PFC charger expert, but my understanding
is that the regs throttle back the charger and keep the regs from going
beyond the over-temp threshold. So if there is one battery that has
throttled back the charger to 0.4A then there could be a lot of batteries
that are not getting the charge current they desire.
In Ralph's case I think this problem was even worse than yours because he is
running a double string of Optimas. With only a single reg across each
pair.
So if you let the charger and regs run long enough then eventually all the
batteries should come up as I believe Roger indicated in a later post.
Another option that Ralph played with a bit is putting an external load on
the regs that come up first thus allowing the charge current to be kept
higher.
I believe Ralph also determined that this problem was worse when the
batteries were heated with his battery heating system.
Does anyone know if it degrades the life of an Optima or Orbital to hold it
14.7V for a long period of time (like several hours) while you are waiting
for all the batteries to come up?
Essentially the individual chargers on my car hold at 14.7V till I unplug
them. I have the whole car on a cheap timer, but sometimes they'll be on
for several hours at 14.7V. I haven't noticed a big problem with this so
far.
Regards,
Chris Brune
From: "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Apparently, I am one of the poor, unfortunate souls with 25 Orbitals that
> just can't seem to agree on a common voltage. I have Mk2/2b regs on each
> one, which I feel have been very useful from the standpoint of
communicating
> with the charger and not allowing me to overcharge my batteries. However,
I
> have quite a few that hit the 14.8 V mark and start blinking while others
> want to hang out around 13 and small change. Could it be that I've abused
> them with 1400+ Amp discharges at the track? Absolutely. ;-)
>
> Still, I'd like them to play together more nicely. Maybe I'm just not
> allowing them to finish charge long enough, and need to increase the
> timeout. Right now, it's an hour, but maybe it needs to be more like two
> hours at 1-2 amps while held at the 14.8 V limit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Shay wrote:
> Most everything I read about these batteries is impressive except the
> cost and the available cell sizes.
>
> Is there any reasonable prospect that cost will come down to perhaps 1/10th
> of present sizes?
I find this amusing about the situation:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4658/kokam1hl.jpg
http://www.kokamamerica.com/kokam_catalog.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
One reference point for the Optimas are the ACP cars. They hold the
highest voltage battery at 15.6-15.8v, while the others catch up. The
charger is throttled back at that moment.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> Ralph Merwin and I have discussed pretty much the same thing with his
> batteries.
>
> Are you running your regulators "loadless"?
>
> >From the pics on the Manzanita Micro web site it looks like Rich is
using a
> Wakefield 637-15ABP heatsink for the internal load. This is rated
for 65°C
> rise at 6W dissipation. I believe he targets shutting down the reg at
> 100°C, so if the ambient of the reg is about 35°C (warm day under
cover?)
> were about there for temp rise. So the reg can dissipate 6W. Being
that
> heatsink is not vertically mounted like it is designed for this may
be a bit
> optimistic even. So if the battery is at 14.8V then the reg can
bypass 0.4A
> continuously. I'm certainly not a PFC charger expert, but my
understanding
> is that the regs throttle back the charger and keep the regs from going
> beyond the over-temp threshold. So if there is one battery that has
> throttled back the charger to 0.4A then there could be a lot of
batteries
> that are not getting the charge current they desire.
>
> In Ralph's case I think this problem was even worse than yours
because he is
> running a double string of Optimas. With only a single reg across each
> pair.
>
> So if you let the charger and regs run long enough then eventually
all the
> batteries should come up as I believe Roger indicated in a later post.
> Another option that Ralph played with a bit is putting an external
load on
> the regs that come up first thus allowing the charge current to be kept
> higher.
>
> I believe Ralph also determined that this problem was worse when the
> batteries were heated with his battery heating system.
>
> Does anyone know if it degrades the life of an Optima or Orbital to
hold it
> 14.7V for a long period of time (like several hours) while you are
waiting
> for all the batteries to come up?
>
> Essentially the individual chargers on my car hold at 14.7V till I
unplug
> them. I have the whole car on a cheap timer, but sometimes they'll
be on
> for several hours at 14.7V. I haven't noticed a big problem with
this so
> far.
>
> Regards,
> Chris Brune
>
>
> From: "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Apparently, I am one of the poor, unfortunate souls with 25
Orbitals that
> > just can't seem to agree on a common voltage. I have Mk2/2b regs
on each
> > one, which I feel have been very useful from the standpoint of
> communicating
> > with the charger and not allowing me to overcharge my batteries.
However,
> I
> > have quite a few that hit the 14.8 V mark and start blinking while
others
> > want to hang out around 13 and small change. Could it be that I've
abused
> > them with 1400+ Amp discharges at the track? Absolutely. ;-)
> >
> > Still, I'd like them to play together more nicely. Maybe I'm just not
> > allowing them to finish charge long enough, and need to increase the
> > timeout. Right now, it's an hour, but maybe it needs to be more
like two
> > hours at 1-2 amps while held at the 14.8 V limit.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote:
> Any chance you (or anyone else) have good quality logos in electronic
> form for some of the popular components (e.g. Kilovac, Optima, DCP,
> etc.) and/or the popular parts suppliers (eg. EVParts, Canadian Electric
> Vehicles, etc.)?
Here's some from Optima:
http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/news/logos.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Passive EQ works if you have matched batterys and 86 hours minimum to
EQ them for ;) In fact they never got them to EQ.
I know it's a great theory, but in practice I think they also showed
that it can get worse by making batterys lose water and die earlier.
So get something designed Mr Engineer :)
Good point about a reversed battery. I think that's where a monitoring
display would pay off.
Mike
>
> Nice to see that the paper about switched capacitor
> equalization confirms that passive equalization of
> sealed Lead Acid batteries does work, if you have
> enough time to (float) charge them and allow a
> low and controlled (recombined) gas production
> inside the cells.
> http://www.smartsparkenergy.com/pdf/batteq2.pdf
> To reduce charge time and speed up equalization
> they present the non-dissipative capacitor switcher,
> though from their data you can see that the dissipation
> is mainly a concern for UPS standby operations, the
> typical EV recharge regimen does result in pretty low
> losses as the charging is a fraction of the time and
> the equalization part of the charge even shorter.
>
> It is an interesting approach though, the principle of
> power shuttling between batteries, in this case it is
> shuttled not in a specific direction - always from the
> highest voltage battery to a lower voltage battery.
>
> Series-switching involves "overlapping" the switchers
> by 1 battery, so 2 switchers for 4 batteries can
> equalize 7 batteries.
>
> It seems that they are not protected against fault
> situations, such as a low capacitance cell that gets
> low and reverses during load - this will blow up the
> circuit or the adjacent cells will also be reversed.
> When one battery is bad and loses a cell then all
> other batteries will be equalized to the voltage of
> the bad battery, while the bad one will be hit with a
> severe overcharge.....
>
> These issues may be detected and should be avoided
> when this principle is applied in a product.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 2:55 PM
> To: Meta Bus
> Subject: Re: Switched Capacitor Equalization of Long Strings WAS: Some
> problems to solve
>
>
> Now that is a link! What great set of papers that were furnished at
> the bottom of the page! Got my brain turning in a big way.
>
> Thank You!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Meta Bus <ev@> wrote:
> >
> > Lee, Rich, may I divert this subject a little, something related--
> >
> > What do you think of using switched-capacitance to equalize large
> > strings? (A la http://www.smartsparkenergy.com/batteq.htm)
> >
> > Regards and TIA,
> > Jim
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > >>Forget forced equalization. That's for floodeds. AGM guys use the
> Regs.
> > >>And Never drive the Lead over 15 volts if we can help it.
> > >>Never Equalize, The regs do that as they blink.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rich, I disagree.
> > >
> > > "Equalization" is the process of somehow getting different
numbers of
> > > amphours into batteries, to compensate for them being at different
> > > states of charge. There are lots of ways to do it; your
regulators are
> > > only one.
> > >
> > > Ye Olde Brute Force method, used for floodeds, is to just blindly
> charge
> > > excessively. Like filling buckets with a hose. They all fill up all
> > > right; but the excess spills on the ground and makes a mess. With
> > > batteries, the "mess" is gassing, fizzing, water loss, higher
battery
> > > temperature, and somewhat shorter life.
> > >
> > > You're right; you don't want to use this method for sealed
batteries.
> > > The top is "sealed", so attempting to overfill it causes the
pressure
> > > inside to increase. It can blow the safety vents, lose water (which
> > > can't be replaced), make them get hot, and seriously shorten their
> life.
> > >
> > > But, I disagree that you *never* take AGMs up over 15v. Let's
> assume you
> > > are doing your equalization via extra charging. If one battery is 1
> > > amphour lower than the rest, you have to put one extra amphour
> into it.
> > > There are lots of ways you can do this.
> > >
> > > You could apply a lower voltage for a longer time. My simple
> zener-lamp
> > > regulators start shunting current at 13.5v, and gradually
increase to
> > > 0.5 amps at 15v. Let's say the average is 0.25 amps. It takes 4
> hours to
> > > get from 13.5v to 15v; so they are providing 0.25a x 4h = 1
amphour of
> > > equalization without ever reaching 15v.
> > >
> > > Or, you can charge to a higher voltage but limit the time. 15.5v
at 2
> > > amps for 30 minutes is also 1 amphour. In fact, there is
evidence that
> > > higher currents do a better job of equalzation. Hawker suggests
> > > equalizing at 2 amps with *no voltage limit*, for example. The key
> here
> > > is that you need to *know* that there is room for that extra 1
amhour.
> > > You don't blindly charge at 15.5v and 2 amps into an already-full
> > > battery; that will only force it to gas; the internal pressure
> goes up;
> > > it gets hot, vents, loses water, and is damaged.
> > >
> > > The key for AGMs is not to blindly hold some voltage limit; but to
> > > *know* the state of charge, and put in the *right* amount of
> overcharge
> > > to bring it to full. The actual voltage and current you apply to
> do this
> > > has rather wide limits.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You mean 60 miles every day without damage and still have around 45%
DOD remaining, right? Yourtruck could go 100+ miles at 45 mph on
110ah. In fact my truck uses .9ah/mile at 45mph. In theory that's 122
miles with 0% DOD remaining. Which is what I bet some of these stories
imply.
BTW I'll be installing the NiMH packs here soon for testing in the truck.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hmmmm,
>
> > Very easy. Paid a lot of money.
> Not always.
>
> My S10 truck's range is 60 miles with careful Freeway driving
> and I have about $2200 in batteries (almost 1800 lbs) and
> these are sealed, not flooded.
> I know that I could have at least doubled this range, but
> the investment would have risen to well into the 5 digits.
> Since I do not have money coming out my ears and it is my
> first pack (which I am supposed to kill prematurely)
> I opted for the best "cheap" solution I could find.
>
> If I have time, I may try to find a 35 MPH route that allows
> me to test the range at low speeds, but that will likely
> take me two hours of driving or more, once I have spotted a
> suitable route. (I hate to make 30 laps around the block)
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:54 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: longest range?
>
>
> Alan Smith wrote:
> > I have to say I'm immpressed with what people have gotten.
> >
> > Now, how do you do it?
>
> Very easy. Paid a lot of money.
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
I find this amusing about the situation:
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4658/kokam1hl.jpg
What is so amusing about it? Raw material cost is
manufacturer's business. They charge you based on the benefits
and usefulness of the battery they think worth to you,
not based on their material cost. If you want their batteries
so bad that ready to pay $10/Ah (and it cost them 10c/Ah to
produce) why do they have to shy away from charging you $10
while batteries still fly off Kokam's shelves at that price?
It's a market demand. You can't come to them
and demand charge you less because their raw materials cost
next to nothing. What you can do is open another factory
next to them, and they will be forced to lower their prices.
Until then, pay $10/Ah and don't complain - they won't listen.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris and all,
So if the battery is at 14.8V then the reg can bypass 0.4A
continuously.
That doesn't necessarily mean the charger has to throttle back to .4A.
Shunting some of the current through the regulator instead of the
battery can keep that battery at bay until the others catch up. It does
eventually hit a point where the battery is simply full, and it would
have to shunt more current to keep the battery (AGM) from exceeding a
safe voltage level. If the others haven't caught up yet, then that's
the time to signal the charger for it to cut back.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those out there who want a copy of this program, please email me as
I have some data on this that I have been asked not to post publicly.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom, you also need to consider that LiIon needs some sort of BMS that limits
the amount of charge and discharge.
There are a few manufacturers who make EV sized LiIon: Kokam (LiPoly),
Thundersky (LiIon), ABC Batteries, Valance, etc (see the archives for
others). Larger cells **are** being used in Evs, (once again, check the
archives for ProEV, MetricMind, John Lussemayer, SolarVan), however, you are
correct - they are expensive.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Shay
Sent: April 18, 2006 5:06 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Lithium Ion Polymer Batteries
Most everything I read about these batteries is impressive except the cost
ant the available cell sizes.
Is there any reasonable prospect that cost will come down to perhaps 1/10th
of present sizes?
Are there presently any cells large enough for an EV battery pack without
using thousands of cells? Are large cells likely to be available in the
future?
I don't think these batteries have any real future in EVs unless costs come
way down and larger cells become available.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If your batteries are rated for 80 to 200 ampere hours, then 4 amps of
finish current is about right for flooded batteries.
Final current should be 2 to 5% of the 20 hour AH rating of the batteries.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 5:07 AM
Subject: Ok boy charger!
Hi All,
I am trialling my Ok boy charger for my EV. Well, it was sorta a bad, but
not so bad boy charger before i had put the filter caps on them.
I used two toroid transformers, rated at 300 VA each, 36 volt and 8.33 Amps
each. I had shorted two previous transformers out due to my stupidity and my
cheap skateness of not having a cooling fan.
Damn, thank god for warranties!
But with the massive 120mm 240Vac cooling fan on top of the overcrowded
chassis i built on, the unit has been working fine for the three weeks since
its been installed.
They run at 800-850 watts combined during the bulk phase of charging, not
bad, considered they are rated at 300 VA, just need cooling, the secret
ingredient.
Other than that, a simple bridge rectifier and couple of chassis mount caps
is all you need for a good reliable charger. Oh and a mains operated
timer....very important!
At the moment everything is just wired pretty messy in the back seat till i
am satisfied with its reliability.
When the batteries are full, the charger puts out 4-5amps, is that too
high??
Cheers...Go toroids.
_________________________________________________________________
New year, new job – there's more than 100,00 jobs at SEEK
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau&_t=752315885&_r=Jan05_tagline&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor wrote:
> What you can do is open another factory
> next to them, and they will be forced to lower their prices.
It's tempting. I've thought about this a lot. The situation with
this is that once we were producing the batteries at a low cost, they
would drop their prices lower then our lowest possible price and we
couldn't keep producing even at cost(unless the materials were free..
I'm willing to build batteries for free..).
Currently, Kokam sell's XX amount of batteries and makes XXX amount of money.
The situation could be for them: sells XXXXXXXXX amount of batteries
and makes XXXXXXXXXXX amount of money.
Economies of scale. Sell more batteries = make more money?
This situation reminds me of auto manufactures such as Hyundai, and
Suzuki. I've written them several emails over the years expressing my
disappointment with them. I say "Do you want to be the number one
auto manufacturer in the world? If so..", then I list off a long list
of things to change or do. Then I say "if not, then keep building the
cars you are building and you will keep selling the amount you are
selling" (which isn't many).
The situation with them is they offer nothing more then average.
Produce something compelling! Make people WANT to buy a Hyundai or
Suzuki. Make cars that are either really lost cost, get extreme mpg,
or offer excellent performance. Currently, they do none of these
things. They offer average cars, at an average price, that get
average fuel mileage, and offer average or below average performance.
Who would want one of those cars and for what reason?
The thing that gets me the most is Suzuki. Look at the bikes they
build(Hayabusa, GSXR-1000), then look at the cars they build... Why
can't they build a car like the 1991-1998 Toyota Supra and sell it at
a fair and reasonable price? Why can't they build cars that perform
like their bikes do?
When the 1964 1/2 and 1965 model Mustangs came out; people WANTED that
car. What cars since have been like that?
I can think of plenty of cars people want. If they were more
affordable, they would have them.
Sort of like these batteries.
(That 60's Mustang was affordable and people did buy it. Do you think
Ford turned a profit on it? I wonder how that compares to GM's
Corvette profits?)
Does Walmart sell a lot or a little? Would Walmart like to sell 5
Kokam batteries or Millions(billions)?
Victor, would you like to sell 1 motor this year or 600?
Is Kokam perfectly happy only selling little RC batteries? Or would
they rather every car and fork truck in the world have a quarter ton
of their batteries installed in them?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I stand corrected.
I incorrectly assumed that the car needed to travel 10 miles in 10 minutes
rather than it needing to charge for 10 miles in 10 minutes.
Once I reread the question, it was obvious to me.
Thanks for the correction.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: Questions that should get me going, I hope
> Beggin your pardon Joe, but the speed of the vehicle has absoultely
> NOTHING to do with the size of the charger.
>
> It depends on the watts hrs per mile and the DISTANCE traveled, times how
> fast you want to charge.
>
> In the example of the Fetish (10 miles for a 10 minute charge) if we
> assume the vehicle uses 200 whr/mile, then for 10 miles we need approx
> 2kwh. Assuming or batteries are 80% charge efficient, and our charger is
> 80% efficient then we need to draw 3.125 kwh from the outlet. To do this
> in 10 minutes (1/6 of an hour) we need to draw 18.75 kw from the outlet.
> I believe the NEC requires that the average draw on the outlet not exceed
> 80% of the outlet's max current rating, so that means we need an outlet
> rated for at least 23.5 kw.
> That's almost 15 times as much as your average 110V outlet is rated for,
> over twice as much power as a 220V / 50 amp dryer outlet is rated for. In
> fact it's more than the main service panel on many US homes can handle.
>
> You are going to need a 220V 100 amp service panel just to handle the
> charger. Of course this isn't going to be any problem for someone than
> can afford a Fetish or a Scion or even the $40,000 for a LiIon battery
> pack.
>
>
>
> > The charger will need to supply your watt hours per mile times the speed
> > of
> > the vehicle.
> >
> > For example: if you use 300 watt hours per mile and travel at 60 MPH,
then
> > the charger will need to provide 18000 watts plus about 10 to 20% to
make
> > up
> > for the Charging Efficiency Factor of the battery. You will also need a
> > pack
> > capable of soaking up energy at this rate.
> >
> > If you travel slower, the charger can be smaller.
> >
> > If you need to travel 10 minutes on a 20 minute charge, the charger will
> > need to be only half as large.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 6:51 PM
> > Subject: Questions that should get me going, I hope
> >
> >
> >
> >> How fast a charger could I make? (If it could do 10 miles on 10 minutes
> >> of
> >> charge that would be lovely, or even something like 10 miles on 20
> >> minutes
> >> of charge.)
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For the low voltage, the ideal would be get low
voltage wiring in twisted pairs and that it would
have a metal shield around the whole area. Only
ground one side of the shield if you go with this
approach so that you do not get a ground loop.
Second best would be to use tightly twisted pairs
of wire and even go with one of those ferrite cores
near the zilla.
Worst thing you can do is use really thin wire and
have two parallel runs without any twisting of the
pairs.
Got it :-)
David Brandt wrote:
I'm not able to place the contactors and shunt more than 1 ft. away
from the hairball as recommended in the zilla manual (though I can
manage 6"). I'd like to know what my options are for shielding. What
products and what techniques are recommended? If given an option, I'd
rather shield the low voltage wires close to the area, instead of the
power wires, but I'll shield the power wires if I have to. My main
concerns are the zilla data cable and the speed sensor wiring.
Also, it's a bit early, but I'd love to have some window stickers for
some of the products I'm using. A green on white or green on clear
"powered by zilla!" with a little godzilla logo would be great!
For my last EV, I took the GIF's of supplier's logos and had a printer
print them in color on sticky backed vinyl. Worked great, and added
some needed accents to the car. Not so much as to be ostentatious, but
enough to make people ask questions.
Thanks in advance!
David Brandt
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--- End Message ---
