EV Digest 5398
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Off-the-shelf LED bar graph voltmeters available? (was: Off-the-shelf
multip
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New Panasonic car runs off two AA batteries
by Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Precharge alternatives
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Low rider floodie quest
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Earth Day Adventures with Batteries
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Monster Garage
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Monster Garage
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Earth Day Adventures with Batteries
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Monster Garage
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Low rider floodie quest
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Thin wires as fuses? (was: Battery connections assistance sought)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Earth Day Adventures with Batteries
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) 156v VW Bus with 156kZilla
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Off-the-shelf LED bar graph voltmeters available? (was: Off-the-shelf
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Earth Day Adventures with Batteries
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I looked into the bar graphs as well. They need some current to drive
them. So make sure you can turn them off.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Where can a 10 segment LED bar graph voltmeter display be purchased?
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why not just use a separate LED bar graph display for each
battery and then arrange them together like the previously mentioned
graphic equalizer?
>
> It doesn't take much to build a bar graph display with a LM3914.
Arrange your batteries into roughly 12V modules and montior them using
something like this:
>
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/batmon12.htm
>
> It's not off the shelf, but it's still pretty simple and relatively
cheap.
>
> It's what I'm planning on bulding, I'm just trying to find a
suitable 10 segment bar graph display.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC
and save big.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
You're in the ball park. There are 6800 - 18650 Lithium Ion batteries
in the tZero. These are the type of battery that you would normally
find in a laptop battery pack.
The 18 of the 18650 signifies that the diameter is 18 mm and the 65 of
the 18650 signifies that the battery is 65 mm long. Don't remember what
the "0" signifies. An "AA" battery is 14.5mm by 50.5mm. Basically, in
size, an 18650 is a slightly fatter and longer AA battery. 25.4mm = 1 inch
Peter Eckhoff, President
Triangle Electric Auto Association
Research Triangle Park, NC
Google: TEAA
Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
See AC Propulsion or T-Zero- Used I believe nearly 7000 Lithium-ion 18650's
which I believe are AA sized.
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now load it up with even more AA's and
make it really scoot!
----
Someone at school had a SWR meter/analyzer that used 10 AA batteries.
The battery box claims they are 1.5v each. Connected in series, the
device was claiming 16.1v. I was thinking my car battery at 12 and
these 10 little batteries at 16... pretty neat. I wondered what is
the highest series voltage that has ever been configured using AA's?
----
Bonus story!
We had this cart with a fully working demonstration air conditioning
unit on it. It required 28 volts DC to be hooked up to it to drive
the motor to drive the compressor. The unit was low on freon so the
(can't think of the name) switch wouldn't let the compressor run. The
instructor wanted to bypass it to see if the motor still worked... He
got a good sized wire and connected it to the hot side of the solenoid
and touched it to the motor terminal.. It audibly arced and I felt he
was lucky that it didn't weld the wire to the motor post. It did
leave a melt mark on the post and the end of the wire. The motor
plate said 90 amps.
I would have had the power turned off, connected the wire and then
used the switch on the cart to avoid doing what he did...
---------------------------------
Celebrate Earth Day everyday! Discover 10 things you can do to help slow
climate change. Yahoo! Earth Day
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I just replied to Peter's comment that one can *forget* about
> using AC drive if they have low voltage battery, and this is
> not the case - one CAN build it and it WILL work fairly well.
>
> Whether it worth it for a user, is different question and not
> the one we were discussing.
> Perhaps, while very doable, not worth it.
Hi Victor,
I didn't mean to say that it wasn't possible, just that it wasn't worthwhile.
You've stated it better than I did. My brevity has risen up and bitten me
again.
Anyway, we agree that it's probably not worth it, especially since I
suspect the reason for going with low voltage was to save money.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm unhappy with the current practice and techniques of precharging
the controller caps. It seems that one has only a couple of choices,
neither good nor convenient. One is to leave the controller charged
all the time which wastes energy and will drain the pack if left
sitting for awhile or have a pre-charge circuit and put up with the
delay while it functions. (No, I'm not interested in hearing that you
don't find the delay annoying. I do and I started this thread!)
I've been pondering this today. The goal really isn't to fully charge
the caps. The goal is to limit the inrush to something that is safe
for the contactor, safe for the caps and which will not generate
enough ring voltage to hurt the semiconductors. That means that some
inrush is OK.
One of the standard industrial methods of limiting inrush or fault
current is a high current air core inductor in series with the load.
The resistance and inductance are low enough that it has no effect on
normal operations. The inductance is high enough, however, to limit
inrush or fault current to a design value.
I'm thinking about (and probably will) applying that to my EV. This
will involve adding a suitable inductor in series with one of the pack
to controller leads. There will then be no precharge resistor and the
contactor will close in on a discharged controller. The inductor will
limit the inrush to a safe value. No delays and no quiescent energy
consumption.
I'm just thinking out loud here before I go out tomorrow and do some
testing. Has anyone else used this approach and if so, any gotchas?
One potential gotcha I can think of has to do with ripple current back
to the battery from the PCM action. For a controller with little or
no input filtering, inductance in the battery lead could result in
unstable operation or loss of power. At this point I'm assuming that
any controller with enough input capacity to need worry about inrush
has enough to limit or eliminate input ripple. True? False?
Physical size won't be a problem since it'll only take a few (hundred)
microhenerys to limit the inrush to a few hundred amps.
Any idea how much input capacitance in, say, an Alltrax 7845? My
digital capacitance meter generated "unusual" results, probably
because of all the other stuff connected to the input. I'll get my
LCR bridge out tomorrow but just in case someone already knows, saving
me the work, I thought I'd ask.
Discussion?
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
What are you trying to achieve?
You have a box that does not allow you to access
most of the batteries that you put in, so why
use flooded which you need to water and maintain?
That was exactly the reason why the trucks were
all equipped with sealed batteries...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 11:05 AM
To: Andre' Blanchard
Subject: Low rider floodie quest
Is there a floodie available that someone has tried that is not over
7" tall? My truck can only support 7" and shorter.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
You have a weird email setting - the "To" adddress indicates
it is sent to one person, but the return address is the list...
Anyways - yes, there is plenty of room in my box, as I could almost
fit all batteries in there, which meant I got the extra 4-battery
box as each layer at each side failed to take the last battery.
In addition to this space there is the "bridge" between the
two halves, above the drive shaft.
Why you're asking this?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 10:45 AM
To: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration
data
Cor,
Is there room in either of your batt boxes for a clamper board for
each batt?
Our trucks are the same 0-45 times? Hmmmm.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Logging data from controller, so only seconds-precision available:
> (DC current takes 3 seconds to ramp from 0 to max; above 40 MPH
> the current tapers off as well)
>
> 0-45MPH in 15 sec at 200A peak
> 0-45MPH in 20 sec at 140A peak
> 1994 Chevy S10
> converted to US Electricar,
> re-converted to use Wavedriver controller (rest still US Electricar)
> clutchless manual transmission, locked in 2nd gear
> (9000 motor RPM at 72 MPH is redline)
> Vehicle weight approx 5000 lbs
> 26x 12V 110Ah UB121100 from UPG (universalpowergroup) (312V pack)
> 50 kW AC "vector" induction motor from Hughes, see spec in
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/files/
> Controller: Wavedriver VFD 700EV250 700V 250A (3-phase)
> Battery interconnects 2 AWG
>
> Other details see http://www.evalbum.com/694.html
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:37 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Have been collecting range data, how about acceleration data
>
>
> I would like to put together a spreadsheet with some real data on
> acceleration. Much like the range discussion that we have been
having. I'd
> like the
> following information from anyone with real world road experience on
their
> EV. I
> want to take this and do a cost comparison on acceleration vs system
cost
> and
> find the optimal point performance point for any given cost.
>
>
> I am looking for acceleration data in the range of 4 - 40 sec for 0
- 45 MPH
>
> with cars / trucks between 1500 lb and 5500 lb.
>
> Acceleration from 0 - 45 (on the flat, 40 degrees F ambient) with the
> following variables:
> - Vehicle - make, model, year
> - Transmission - manual or auto, specify with or without clutch
> - Vehicle Weight
> - Number and type of batteries with manufacturer
> - Motor - Size and Manufacturer
> - Controller - Motor Amps Max, Manufacturer, any extra details like
limited
> to 500 A for battery protection
> - Wire size for battery interconnects and long runs
>
> Here is an example (that I just made up because I don't have the car
handy
> to
> clock):
> 0 - 45 in 22 sec (roughly)
> - 1980 Jet Electra 007
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 3800 lb (roughly)
> - 20 x 6 V deep cycle flooded US2200 with about 1 year of break in
> - GE 9" Series Wound - 23 HP at 96 V (I think)
> - GE EV-1C - 300 A max, limited to control heat on main SCR
> - 2/0 wires all the way around
>
> 0 - 45 not possible (top speed was 37 MPH on the flat)
> - 1970 Saab Sonett
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 1900 lb (roughly)
> - 6 x 6 V deep cycle flooded T105
> - Yale lift motor - 7" X 12" - Series Wound
> - GE EV-1B - 500 A max when using bypass but only for brief periods,
> realistically 300 A sustainable
> - 1/0 for battery connections, 2/0 for long runs
>
> 0 - 45 in about 25 sec (0 - 40 in 20 sec)
> -Car described in 1980 EV Book
> - 4 speed manual with clutch
> - 2000 lb
> - 2 strings of 4 x 12 V = 48 V = 8 deep cycle 12 V batteries total
> - Compound wound J&H Starter Generator
> - Contactor controller
> - wiring unknown
>
> If you send me data, I'll compile it and write a brief summary. I hope
> someone will come back with info on a car that can do 0 - 45 in 8 sec.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve Powers
> Atlanta, GA
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
A belated Happy Earth Day. Despite my busy schedule in graduate school
here at Michigan State University, I've been tinkering with some
lithium-ion cells. I am the new proud owner of two "LG Chem." 18650s
from All-Battery.com:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
In addition, I had taken apart a broken Dell laptop battery and found
three good cell pairs, as well as one pair with no voltage at all. One
of the four paralleled groups was charged up fully, and exhibited about
60 milliohms of series resistance together or 120 milliohms per battery
(also 18650s). Loads of up to 8A were attempted; the batteries are
about 15 deg-C/W case-to-ambient and took about ten minutes to plateau
in temperature. A 0.5W dissipation (a 2A load) is reasonable for cool,
continuous operation. Not bad for older/aged 2230mAh units; almost 1C.
I wish to build something with lithium-ion cells...I had in mind a
small, efficient go-kart with a rewound 3/4HP induction motor. This
would be to lightly test a prototype 120V/1000A induction controller for
the Renault. (I decided to take Rich's advice and discard my power
supply idea for cost purposes, and just make a simple three-phase
inverter.) Anyway, I could use (30) groups of six paralleled cells to
make a pretty decent pack. For this purpose I had these in mind,
because of their low impedance and cost:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=542
So I therefore decided to design a battery management system for the
newly bought cells. At first I wanted to go digital, but didn't have an
IC lying around with A/D converters. Instead, I settled on a set of
analog hysteresis comparators with a gate driver IC for each cell. The
battery would pretend it's shorted when the voltage becomes too high or
too low - this is done by connecting the gate driver bus to the cell,
and wiring the pack to its output pin(s). I used TI's UCC37322 9A gate
driver for this purpose, as well as half of a TLC2254 quad op-amp.
There is a 20mV hysteresis around 4.2V for turning off, and a 0.2V
hysteresis around 2.8V for turning off - in between will always be on.
The 18650 cells were put in a modified dual-D-cell holder, as seen in
the pictures below. The circuit outputs were wired in series for 7.4V
nominal. Small light bulbs were paralleled for future load testing.
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/bat1.jpg
http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/bat2.jpg
As of right now, the green LEDs are flickering because the end-of-charge
has been reached. When the cell voltage gets to be above 4.20V, the
light goes off. When it sinks below 4.18V, the light comes back on. No
load testing has been done yet. When they came, the batteries were both
3.82V, but exhibited up to 0.2V of difference when being charged. It
seems that approximately the same number of coulombs have been put into
each, though - so we'll see what happens later on.
The batteries are in general impressive. The older cells held a charge
very well, despite repetitive 6-8A drains per pair. For their size,
they take forever to recharge - a lot of energy is stored in those tiny
cylinders. They seem to be fairly cooperative and consistent. For
someone who is paranoid of gassing, this chemistry is a relief. They
don't seem to be particularly dangerous; I even started to open up one
of the dead ones. I definitely think they are the future.
But I wonder, how well would it work to parallel six of these? If the
finishing current was a little lower (charging drawn out longer), might
this ensure better sharing between them? Again, Dell paralleled two and
had four of those groups in series. Has anyone tried similar
experiments to this, or run tests on paralleled cells? Does one really
need more than just a simple voltage limiting circuit like this?
Here is a reference I used:
http://www.hardingenergy.com/pdfs/LiIon.pdf
The "Battery University" was also helpful in many situations.
Arthur Matteson - East Lansing, MI
1980 Renault LeCar, "Little Homebrew AC"
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have watched this MG... thanks ;^)
V28 cells results are impressive as Madman, Shawn and team "in a hurry" work
!
Pack connection system is incredible...
These cells seems to be capable of revolutionizing whole dragster world,
keeping all ICE competitors for second and other places like in 1900 time.
we need to test them further, maybe we will see once in a liftime a Zilla
diying under real stress :^)
a V28 equiped white zombie have to use a large wheelie bar :^)
Finaly, 14.5 is more than respectable for a red painted TANK :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> On 4/14/06, DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Rich and Shawn,
> > I need to ask, when Jessie says, "stupid electric car" was that part of
> > the script, jessie twisting the knife or just covering his butt if it
> > bombed?
>
>
> In one of the articles I've read about Monster Garage, one of the
producers
> refers to Jessie as the "anti-host" - he literally does all sorts of
things
> the host should never do - often not appearing on any given day of the
> Monster build, casually trashing this or that guest. The first two times
> that Monster Garage hosted all-girl guest teams are good examples of the
> dark side of Jessie - he doesn't help them much and his commentary is all
> about how they're going to fail - which both teams did. (Side note: I
> haven't watched MG much recently, so I don't know if any all-girl teams
have
> ever succeeded)
>
> There's an old saying: all publicity is good publicity. You and I may be
> disappointed about the performance of the electric car they built in a few
> days out of batteries meant for cordless drills... but there are countless
> others who will watch it and think, hey, they made this electric monster
car
> out of drill batteries! And it got 14.5! Sure, it's no supercar but
> 14.5is at least respectable.
>
> As I write this, oil is above $75 per barrel, gas here in CA is above
> $3.00/gallon, and both are continuing to head skyward. Stupid gas cars.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there anywhere to get this episode such a torrent?
I've been using v28s in rc helicopters for a couple of months, although
there is a slight weight penalty compared to using LiPos, the cells are a
lot more robust and half the price of Lipos. They also seem to stay in
balance extremely well again compared to lipos.
However, the only way to currently get these cells for RC use is to buy the
spare v28 packs for the Milwaukee tools and take them apart. From ebay, this
works out at about $12 per 3000mAh 3.7V cell.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Philippe Borges
Sent: Sunday, 23 April 2006 6:51 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
I have watched this MG... thanks ;^)
V28 cells results are impressive as Madman, Shawn and team "in a hurry" work
!
Pack connection system is incredible...
These cells seems to be capable of revolutionizing whole dragster world,
keeping all ICE competitors for second and other places like in 1900 time.
we need to test them further, maybe we will see once in a liftime a Zilla
diying under real stress :^)
a V28 equiped white zombie have to use a large wheelie bar :^)
Finaly, 14.5 is more than respectable for a red painted TANK :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: Monster Garage
> On 4/14/06, DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Rich and Shawn,
> > I need to ask, when Jessie says, "stupid electric car" was that part of
> > the script, jessie twisting the knife or just covering his butt if it
> > bombed?
>
>
> In one of the articles I've read about Monster Garage, one of the
producers
> refers to Jessie as the "anti-host" - he literally does all sorts of
things
> the host should never do - often not appearing on any given day of the
> Monster build, casually trashing this or that guest. The first two times
> that Monster Garage hosted all-girl guest teams are good examples of the
> dark side of Jessie - he doesn't help them much and his commentary is all
> about how they're going to fail - which both teams did. (Side note: I
> haven't watched MG much recently, so I don't know if any all-girl teams
have
> ever succeeded)
>
> There's an old saying: all publicity is good publicity. You and I may be
> disappointed about the performance of the electric car they built in a few
> days out of batteries meant for cordless drills... but there are countless
> others who will watch it and think, hey, they made this electric monster
car
> out of drill batteries! And it got 14.5! Sure, it's no supercar but
> 14.5is at least respectable.
>
> As I write this, oil is above $75 per barrel, gas here in CA is above
> $3.00/gallon, and both are continuing to head skyward. Stupid gas cars.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I made similar test as i'm working on similar project :^)
Some 2200mah cells i have:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr\images\18650-2200mah.jpg
pierced twice no spectacular failure:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr\images\18650piercedtest.jpg
30V overcharge: nothing happened
short circuit to death: nothing happened
crushed: nothing happened
few tested cells(all burnt marks are from using a torch not from a failure):
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr\images\18650testAll.jpg
i made also few videos and safety results are impressive: the only way to
obtain a visible cell failure is to ignite them hard and even this way it
only open safety event and let smoke goes out during 10 seconds that's all !
Next step is assembly, i choose welding.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: Earth Day Adventures with Batteries
> Hi all,
>
> A belated Happy Earth Day. Despite my busy schedule in graduate school
> here at Michigan State University, I've been tinkering with some
> lithium-ion cells. I am the new proud owner of two "LG Chem." 18650s
> from All-Battery.com:
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
>
> In addition, I had taken apart a broken Dell laptop battery and found
> three good cell pairs, as well as one pair with no voltage at all. One
> of the four paralleled groups was charged up fully, and exhibited about
> 60 milliohms of series resistance together or 120 milliohms per battery
> (also 18650s). Loads of up to 8A were attempted; the batteries are
> about 15 deg-C/W case-to-ambient and took about ten minutes to plateau
> in temperature. A 0.5W dissipation (a 2A load) is reasonable for cool,
> continuous operation. Not bad for older/aged 2230mAh units; almost 1C.
>
> I wish to build something with lithium-ion cells...I had in mind a
> small, efficient go-kart with a rewound 3/4HP induction motor. This
> would be to lightly test a prototype 120V/1000A induction controller for
> the Renault. (I decided to take Rich's advice and discard my power
> supply idea for cost purposes, and just make a simple three-phase
> inverter.) Anyway, I could use (30) groups of six paralleled cells to
> make a pretty decent pack. For this purpose I had these in mind,
> because of their low impedance and cost:
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=542
>
> So I therefore decided to design a battery management system for the
> newly bought cells. At first I wanted to go digital, but didn't have an
> IC lying around with A/D converters. Instead, I settled on a set of
> analog hysteresis comparators with a gate driver IC for each cell. The
> battery would pretend it's shorted when the voltage becomes too high or
> too low - this is done by connecting the gate driver bus to the cell,
> and wiring the pack to its output pin(s). I used TI's UCC37322 9A gate
> driver for this purpose, as well as half of a TLC2254 quad op-amp.
> There is a 20mV hysteresis around 4.2V for turning off, and a 0.2V
> hysteresis around 2.8V for turning off - in between will always be on.
> The 18650 cells were put in a modified dual-D-cell holder, as seen in
> the pictures below. The circuit outputs were wired in series for 7.4V
> nominal. Small light bulbs were paralleled for future load testing.
>
> http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/bat1.jpg
> http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/bat2.jpg
>
> As of right now, the green LEDs are flickering because the end-of-charge
> has been reached. When the cell voltage gets to be above 4.20V, the
> light goes off. When it sinks below 4.18V, the light comes back on. No
> load testing has been done yet. When they came, the batteries were both
> 3.82V, but exhibited up to 0.2V of difference when being charged. It
> seems that approximately the same number of coulombs have been put into
> each, though - so we'll see what happens later on.
>
> The batteries are in general impressive. The older cells held a charge
> very well, despite repetitive 6-8A drains per pair. For their size,
> they take forever to recharge - a lot of energy is stored in those tiny
> cylinders. They seem to be fairly cooperative and consistent. For
> someone who is paranoid of gassing, this chemistry is a relief. They
> don't seem to be particularly dangerous; I even started to open up one
> of the dead ones. I definitely think they are the future.
>
> But I wonder, how well would it work to parallel six of these? If the
> finishing current was a little lower (charging drawn out longer), might
> this ensure better sharing between them? Again, Dell paralleled two and
> had four of those groups in series. Has anyone tried similar
> experiments to this, or run tests on paralleled cells? Does one really
> need more than just a simple voltage limiting circuit like this?
>
> Here is a reference I used:
>
> http://www.hardingenergy.com/pdfs/LiIon.pdf
>
> The "Battery University" was also helpful in many situations.
>
>
> Arthur Matteson - East Lansing, MI
> 1980 Renault LeCar, "Little Homebrew AC"
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
email sent :^)
Yes i'm aware of them thank to rcgroup also.
Dreaming about single cell availability...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 3:02 PM
Subject: RE: Monster Garage
> Is there anywhere to get this episode such a torrent?
>
> I've been using v28s in rc helicopters for a couple of months, although
> there is a slight weight penalty compared to using LiPos, the cells are a
> lot more robust and half the price of Lipos. They also seem to stay in
> balance extremely well again compared to lipos.
>
> However, the only way to currently get these cells for RC use is to buy
the
> spare v28 packs for the Milwaukee tools and take them apart. From ebay,
this
> works out at about $12 per 3000mAh 3.7V cell.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Philippe Borges
> Sent: Sunday, 23 April 2006 6:51 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage
>
> I have watched this MG... thanks ;^)
> V28 cells results are impressive as Madman, Shawn and team "in a hurry"
work
> !
> Pack connection system is incredible...
> These cells seems to be capable of revolutionizing whole dragster world,
> keeping all ICE competitors for second and other places like in 1900 time.
> we need to test them further, maybe we will see once in a liftime a Zilla
> diying under real stress :^)
> a V28 equiped white zombie have to use a large wheelie bar :^)
>
> Finaly, 14.5 is more than respectable for a red painted TANK :^)
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 2:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Monster Garage
>
>
> > On 4/14/06, DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Rich and Shawn,
> > > I need to ask, when Jessie says, "stupid electric car" was that part
of
> > > the script, jessie twisting the knife or just covering his butt if it
> > > bombed?
> >
> >
> > In one of the articles I've read about Monster Garage, one of the
> producers
> > refers to Jessie as the "anti-host" - he literally does all sorts of
> things
> > the host should never do - often not appearing on any given day of the
> > Monster build, casually trashing this or that guest. The first two
times
> > that Monster Garage hosted all-girl guest teams are good examples of the
> > dark side of Jessie - he doesn't help them much and his commentary is
all
> > about how they're going to fail - which both teams did. (Side note: I
> > haven't watched MG much recently, so I don't know if any all-girl teams
> have
> > ever succeeded)
> >
> > There's an old saying: all publicity is good publicity. You and I may
be
> > disappointed about the performance of the electric car they built in a
few
> > days out of batteries meant for cordless drills... but there are
countless
> > others who will watch it and think, hey, they made this electric monster
> car
> > out of drill batteries! And it got 14.5! Sure, it's no supercar but
> > 14.5is at least respectable.
> >
> > As I write this, oil is above $75 per barrel, gas here in CA is above
> > $3.00/gallon, and both are continuing to head skyward. Stupid gas cars.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just exploring all the alternatives Cor.
Trying to think outside the box ;)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> What are you trying to achieve?
>
> You have a box that does not allow you to access
> most of the batteries that you put in, so why
> use flooded which you need to water and maintain?
>
> That was exactly the reason why the trucks were
> all equipped with sealed batteries...
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wirele****etworks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 11:05 AM
> To: Andre' Blanchard
> Subject: Low rider floodie quest
>
>
> Is there a floodie available that someone has tried that is not over
> 7" tall? My truck can only support 7" and shorter.
>
> Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
If you use thin wire, make sure it opens before breaching the insulation,
opens cleanly with full pack voltage applied, and does not burn. I use fuses to
make sure.
Thanks Joe. My inclination here is to use an approach that is quick and easy,
and *safe*. Unless someone posts a specific thin-wire solution I may stick with
fuses after all.
What specific hardware would work and is easy to get? I see some at
RadioShack.com. They have several different automotive inline fuse holders.
Here is one:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102784&cp=&pg=1&y=13&origkw=fuse+holder&x=12&kw=fuse+holder&numProdsPerPage=15&parentPage=search
And a barrier strip:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103229&cp=&origkw=barrier+strip&kw=barrier+strip&parentPage=search
Mark
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe,
Glad to see you testing these cells. Very educational for me as I'm
looking into an alternative to lead acid. What part number are they
and how much did you pay for them?
Your links have the slashes going the wrong way. Try these.
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/18650-2200mah.jpg
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/18650piercedtest.jpg
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/18650testAll.jpg
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I made similar test as i'm working on similar project :^)
>
> Some 2200mah cells i have:
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr\images\18650-2200mah.jpg
>
> pierced twice no spectacular failure:
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr\images\18650piercedtest.jpg
>
> 30V overcharge: nothing happened
>
> short circuit to death: nothing happened
>
> crushed: nothing happened
>
> few tested cells(all burnt marks are from using a torch not from a
failure):
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr\images\18650testAll.jpg
>
> i made also few videos and safety results are impressive: the only
way to
> obtain a visible cell failure is to ignite them hard and even this
way it
> only open safety event and let smoke goes out during 10 seconds
that's all !
>
> Next step is assembly, i choose welding.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 10:35 AM
> Subject: Earth Day Adventures with Batteries
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > A belated Happy Earth Day. Despite my busy schedule in graduate
school
> > here at Michigan State University, I've been tinkering with some
> > lithium-ion cells. I am the new proud owner of two "LG Chem." 18650s
> > from All-Battery.com:
> >
> > http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
> >
> > In addition, I had taken apart a broken Dell laptop battery and found
> > three good cell pairs, as well as one pair with no voltage at all.
One
> > of the four paralleled groups was charged up fully, and exhibited
about
> > 60 milliohms of series resistance together or 120 milliohms per
battery
> > (also 18650s). Loads of up to 8A were attempted; the batteries are
> > about 15 deg-C/W case-to-ambient and took about ten minutes to plateau
> > in temperature. A 0.5W dissipation (a 2A load) is reasonable for
cool,
> > continuous operation. Not bad for older/aged 2230mAh units;
almost 1C.
> >
> > I wish to build something with lithium-ion cells...I had in mind a
> > small, efficient go-kart with a rewound 3/4HP induction motor. This
> > would be to lightly test a prototype 120V/1000A induction
controller for
> > the Renault. (I decided to take Rich's advice and discard my power
> > supply idea for cost purposes, and just make a simple three-phase
> > inverter.) Anyway, I could use (30) groups of six paralleled cells to
> > make a pretty decent pack. For this purpose I had these in mind,
> > because of their low impedance and cost:
> >
> > http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=542
> >
> > So I therefore decided to design a battery management system for the
> > newly bought cells. At first I wanted to go digital, but didn't
have an
> > IC lying around with A/D converters. Instead, I settled on a set of
> > analog hysteresis comparators with a gate driver IC for each cell.
The
> > battery would pretend it's shorted when the voltage becomes too
high or
> > too low - this is done by connecting the gate driver bus to the cell,
> > and wiring the pack to its output pin(s). I used TI's UCC37322 9A
gate
> > driver for this purpose, as well as half of a TLC2254 quad op-amp.
> > There is a 20mV hysteresis around 4.2V for turning off, and a 0.2V
> > hysteresis around 2.8V for turning off - in between will always be on.
> > The 18650 cells were put in a modified dual-D-cell holder, as seen in
> > the pictures below. The circuit outputs were wired in series for 7.4V
> > nominal. Small light bulbs were paralleled for future load testing.
> >
> > http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/bat1.jpg
> > http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/bat2.jpg
> >
> > As of right now, the green LEDs are flickering because the
end-of-charge
> > has been reached. When the cell voltage gets to be above 4.20V, the
> > light goes off. When it sinks below 4.18V, the light comes back
on. No
> > load testing has been done yet. When they came, the batteries
were both
> > 3.82V, but exhibited up to 0.2V of difference when being charged. It
> > seems that approximately the same number of coulombs have been put
into
> > each, though - so we'll see what happens later on.
> >
> > The batteries are in general impressive. The older cells held a
charge
> > very well, despite repetitive 6-8A drains per pair. For their size,
> > they take forever to recharge - a lot of energy is stored in those
tiny
> > cylinders. They seem to be fairly cooperative and consistent. For
> > someone who is paranoid of gassing, this chemistry is a relief. They
> > don't seem to be particularly dangerous; I even started to open up one
> > of the dead ones. I definitely think they are the future.
> >
> > But I wonder, how well would it work to parallel six of these? If the
> > finishing current was a little lower (charging drawn out longer),
might
> > this ensure better sharing between them? Again, Dell paralleled
two and
> > had four of those groups in series. Has anyone tried similar
> > experiments to this, or run tests on paralleled cells? Does one
really
> > need more than just a simple voltage limiting circuit like this?
> >
> > Here is a reference I used:
> >
> > http://www.hardingenergy.com/pdfs/LiIon.pdf
> >
> > The "Battery University" was also helpful in many situations.
> >
> >
> > Arthur Matteson - East Lansing, MI
> > 1980 Renault LeCar, "Little Homebrew AC"
> > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a client that wants to do a family vehicle and I recommended a VW
bus. I think it will handle 156volts of flooded(26) with a 156zilla, Iota
DC/DC, Rudman PFC20, & a 9" ADC or simular. I haven't seen a pickup or Van
using this combo yet but it seems that it would work well in either a van or
pickup. Thanks for any advice or reference to a vehicle I haven't seen.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Plenty of places have these available in kit form, just a no-brainer shove
all the components into the PCB and practice your soldering skills.
What is an example of one?
If you have up to 15 batteries http://www.jstraubel.com/batbox/monitor.htm
has a monitor available, although I know no more about it than the web site
shows.
I had sent an inquiry a while back to JB Straubel's email listed on that
website, no reply yet. Also Otmar had posted that JB is very busy, so this may
be a dead end.
From posts a while back, TIm Wong and Gordon Stallings have similar
designs--don't know if they'd want to build one. In an ideal world, I'd just
buy a plug and play solution similar to one of these.
An alternative may be to just use one 'tiny' voltmeter per battery and mount
the 12 voltmeters on a panel in the dash area. If each voltmeter is a 10
segment LED bar graph display, that might work reasonably well.
Mark
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arthur,
Your testing of these cells is great info for all of us.
Does your gate driver BMS just pulse a near short circuit across the
cells to voltage limit them? Just trying to understand what you did.
Nice job on the Renault. Tons of work. What thickness of copper did
you use on yourboards?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> A belated Happy Earth Day. Despite my busy schedule in graduate school
> here at Michigan State University, I've been tinkering with some
> lithium-ion cells. I am the new proud owner of two "LG Chem." 18650s
> from All-Battery.com:
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
>
> In addition, I had taken apart a broken Dell laptop battery and found
> three good cell pairs, as well as one pair with no voltage at all. One
> of the four paralleled groups was charged up fully, and exhibited about
> 60 milliohms of series resistance together or 120 milliohms per battery
> (also 18650s). Loads of up to 8A were attempted; the batteries are
> about 15 deg-C/W case-to-ambient and took about ten minutes to plateau
> in temperature. A 0.5W dissipation (a 2A load) is reasonable for cool,
> continuous operation. Not bad for older/aged 2230mAh units; almost 1C.
>
> I wish to build something with lithium-ion cells...I had in mind a
> small, efficient go-kart with a rewound 3/4HP induction motor. This
> would be to lightly test a prototype 120V/1000A induction controller for
> the Renault. (I decided to take Rich's advice and discard my power
> supply idea for cost purposes, and just make a simple three-phase
> inverter.) Anyway, I could use (30) groups of six paralleled cells to
> make a pretty decent pack. For this purpose I had these in mind,
> because of their low impedance and cost:
>
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=542
>
> So I therefore decided to design a battery management system for the
> newly bought cells. At first I wanted to go digital, but didn't have an
> IC lying around with A/D converters. Instead, I settled on a set of
> analog hysteresis comparators with a gate driver IC for each cell. The
> battery would pretend it's shorted when the voltage becomes too high or
> too low - this is done by connecting the gate driver bus to the cell,
> and wiring the pack to its output pin(s). I used TI's UCC37322 9A gate
> driver for this purpose, as well as half of a TLC2254 quad op-amp.
> There is a 20mV hysteresis around 4.2V for turning off, and a 0.2V
> hysteresis around 2.8V for turning off - in between will always be on.
> The 18650 cells were put in a modified dual-D-cell holder, as seen in
> the pictures below. The circuit outputs were wired in series for 7.4V
> nominal. Small light bulbs were paralleled for future load testing.
>
> http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/bat1.jpg
> http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/bat2.jpg
>
> As of right now, the green LEDs are flickering because the end-of-charge
> has been reached. When the cell voltage gets to be above 4.20V, the
> light goes off. When it sinks below 4.18V, the light comes back on. No
> load testing has been done yet. When they came, the batteries were both
> 3.82V, but exhibited up to 0.2V of difference when being charged. It
> seems that approximately the same number of coulombs have been put into
> each, though - so we'll see what happens later on.
>
> The batteries are in general impressive. The older cells held a charge
> very well, despite repetitive 6-8A drains per pair. For their size,
> they take forever to recharge - a lot of energy is stored in those tiny
> cylinders. They seem to be fairly cooperative and consistent. For
> someone who is paranoid of gassing, this chemistry is a relief. They
> don't seem to be particularly dangerous; I even started to open up one
> of the dead ones. I definitely think they are the future.
>
> But I wonder, how well would it work to parallel six of these? If the
> finishing current was a little lower (charging drawn out longer), might
> this ensure better sharing between them? Again, Dell paralleled two and
> had four of those groups in series. Has anyone tried similar
> experiments to this, or run tests on paralleled cells? Does one really
> need more than just a simple voltage limiting circuit like this?
>
> Here is a reference I used:
>
> http://www.hardingenergy.com/pdfs/LiIon.pdf
>
> The "Battery University" was also helpful in many situations.
>
>
> Arthur Matteson - East Lansing, MI
> 1980 Renault LeCar, "Little Homebrew AC"
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
>
--- End Message ---
