EV Digest 5402
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Sun-Sentinel articles on EVs & the Florida EAA
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Tiniest Digital Panel Voltmeter?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Potbox and contractor
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: I'm confused...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Precharge alternatives
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Li Ion recall
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) NiCd bus on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Precharge alternatives
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tiniest Digital Panel Voltmeter?
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Precharge alternatives
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: I'm confused...
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: I'm confused...
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Precharge alternatives
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Thin wires as fuses?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: And so it begins...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Potbox and contractor
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: I'm confused...
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Li Ion recall
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Li Ion recall
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Li Ion recall
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Li Ion recall
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Wikipedia on the Rav4 EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) How much battery capacity would this require?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: I'm confused...
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EVs in Australia?
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: What people want/level of expertise to get an EV started?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: How much battery capacity would this require?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Here are the links to those two recent Sun-Sentinel articles on EVs & the
Florida EAA. The second one is a good article on Lowell Simmon's
award-winning EV program at Miramar High School, which has set the standards
that all other high school EV programs in the country follow and also holds
a number of world records in electric car racing.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-pelxauto22apr22,0,7614075.story
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/custom/nextgeneration/broward/sfl-bhs19elecvehicleapr19,1,5932910.story
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
>
> Seeking one suitable for 12 volt battery monitoring. Anyone have a link to
> the tiniest?
How accurate? Small implies hard to read.
A single LED is about as small as you can get. You can wire it to change
color or brightness to indicate voltage.
There are tiny analog meters as small as 1/2" square. They would be hard
to read accurately, but easy to spot the relative voltage between a row
of them.
Beyond that, you could build something with a single LED or LCD graphic
display, with circuitry to display a bargraph for each battery and
perhaps the highest or lowest voltage in a larger format.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is how my Cableform motor controller was done. There is two safety
contactors coming off the battery that stay on all the time control by
ignition switch.
The battery negative went right to the controller. There is a main
contactor between the controller and the motor which was operated by the
accelerator.
The battery positive was fuse with a Bussman 400 amp Limitron fuse and went
directly to the motor.
These contactors are a very large open type, that are still working today,
except the main contactor is used for positive voltage going to a Zilla.
The contact coils is control by a 12 volt relays.
These Cableform contactors, are design for the voltage range that the main
battery may sag. They are size for the battery pack voltage, so they will
not drop off with a very low voltage drop.
The Cableform contactor coils are at the battery pack voltage. Its would
take about 5 amps at 12 VDC to operated these contactors. My contactor
coils are design for a 180 volt pack, where the coil voltage can be as high
as 280 volts and as low as 11 volts before the contactor will drop out.
If I ever drop that low, which I never did, then the contactor will not come
back on until the battery pack voltage reaches 155 volts, which is the Low
Battery Limit for a 180 volt pack.
These contactors are control by a plug-in glass 12 volt relay that only
requires 0.01 amp to operated.
On every one of these contactors, there is a 300 amp diode that goes across
the contacts, to assist in REGEN, which I do not have yet with the Zilla.
There is also a plug in micro switch module, that plugs into the contactor
that controls a idle point by keeping the contactor on which is control by a
12 wire circuit to the accelerator box.
If you are doing a lot of very short stop and go driving, the idle control
allows the motor to stay at about 500 rpm, which reduces the starting surge
if you started from 0 rpm each time. I can turn off the idle control if not
needed.
With the Zilla, I have the Curtis pot box, which I added a idle stop made
from a electric door lock activator.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Potbox and contractor
> Stefan Peters wrote:
> > Why not put a safety contactor that pulls out on each dead throttle
> > event between the controller and motor? It wouldn't (shouldn't) be
> > breaking any current... so not much wear and tear. Would this be
> > bad for the controller or contactor?
>
> Contactors are rated for *millions* of on/off cycles at light load; so
> you aren't going to wear them out from switching every time you release
> the throttle.
>
> But, I think some people have the *impression* that this is bad for the
> contactor. Also, some just don't like the click/clunk noise.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Ankers wrote:
> It relates to AC vs DC.
Actually, nothing you said affects the decision of whether to use an AC
or DC drive system.
> converting a car, something like a Honda Civic... 1992-1998.
A reasonable choice.
> 1. Max range of 25 miles (40km) but without stressing the batteries
> too much.
Ok; then aim to have enough batteries for a 50-mile range. This keeps
your depth of discharge to 50%, so the batteries will last a lot longer.
> 2. Needs to be able to keep with traffic on the freeway - 110km/h > (65mph)
Ok; then you will be discharging the batteries in less than an hour (50
miles at 65 mph takes 46 minutes). This means you can't use cheap
flooded batteries -- you'll have to use premium AGM lead-acids, or some
higher-tech batteries like nicads or nimh.
> 3. Needs to get to 100kmh (60mph) as fast as possible. < 6 sec 0 to
> 60 time, but 5 seconds would be nice.
That is *very* fast. You're asking for sports car like accelleration.
Besides requiring premium AGMs or other expensive batteries, you will
need a very large motor and controller. Possible, but you are heading
for an expensive project.
> 4. Using AGL cells. I guess a higher voltage setup but with smaller
> batteries?
Do you mean AGM?
Voltage per se isn't relevant; however, the commonly available motors
and controllers that can deliver the kind of power you're asking for
will need a fairly high system voltage. 144v is probably the minimum,
higher would make it easier.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>If you take a low resistance value (like 10 Ohms) as precharge
>resistor, then your charge time will be around 10 ms, no delay
>that you can notice.
Taking your 10ms to be 5 time constants, then one time constant = .002 sec.
T=RC, so C=.002/10 = 200uF. Is that about the amount of capacitance in a
Curtis 1231C?
> turning from OFF to ON closes the precharge contactor
In my car, there's a switch that closes when you initially stick in the key.
I'm planning on having the pre-charge circuit close at that time. With a
pre-charge circuit that closes in 1 second or less, there should be no
perceptible delay to the driver, since by the time you turn the key to ON
and press the accelerator, a second has normally gone by. Is there any
problem with that plan?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Li Ion recall.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2006-04-20T142208Z_01_N20348674_RTRUKOC_0_US-HP-RECALL.xml
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If this really has 60 monoblocs, $5K startingbid is a deal:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4634553861
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Taking your 10ms to be 5 time constants, then one time constant =
> .002 sec. T=RC, so C=.002/10 = 200uF. Is that about the amount of
> capacitance in a Curtis 1231C?
No; that's low by about 100:1. Try more like 20,000 uF.
When I tried the 750 ohm precharge resistor recommended by Curtis, my
precharge time was objectionally long (many seconds). But using a
smaller fixed resistor provided so much current that I could drive the
car (slowly) just on the current coming through the precharge resistor.
After a few seconds of this, the resistor overheated and burned out.
So, I used a 130v 75w light bulb as my precharge resistor. Its cold
resistance is so low that it precharges very quickly. You see a brief
flash of light, so I used a "black light" bulb so it wasn't
objectionable. But if I try to drive on the precharge, the bulb just
heats up and it limits the current to half an amp or less.
> In my car, there's a switch that closes when you initially stick in
> the key. I'm planning on having the pre-charge circuit close at that
> time. With a pre-charge circuit that closes in 1 second or less,
> there should be no perceptible delay to the driver, since by the
> time you turn the key to ON and press the accelerator, a second has
> normally gone by. Is there any problem with that plan?
Sounds reasonable. If you go with a largish resistor and thus a slow
precharge, will you have any sort of indicator or interlock to prevent
trying to start before precharge is complete?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
Seeking one suitable for 12 volt battery monitoring. Anyone have a
link to the tiniest?
Surface mount?
http://www.ledtronics.com/datasheets/SMT.htm
The smt LEDs on some of our products are about the size of a pencil
tip. Some of the other surface mount components we put on boards
look like so much coarse ground pepper. We have the youngest guy in
the company do the soldering! SMT results in a dinky overall board,
but of course someone has to design and lay it out, and solder.
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Sounds reasonable. If you go with a largish resistor and thus a slow
>precharge, will you have any sort of indicator or interlock to prevent
>trying to start before precharge is complete?
At the risk of getting "relay-itis", one thing I had considered was putting
a neon bulb in series with a small relay coil across the controller. The
contacts of the relay would be part of the KSI circuit. The car wouldn't
start until the neon bulb lit and closed the relay.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EEkk.. I guess I just posted the typical newbie post where I want
everything. Opps
Yes I meant AGM batteries. Didn't realize the range was worked out that way,
I thought people spoke about range without killing the batteries - so range
is *max* range running the batteries totally flat? In that case, I could
just get away with 60 km (40 miles) range; it would be very rare I did much
more than 30 km between charges.
The car will hardly ever do freeway driving but sometimes it's easier to use
the freeway to do 4 or 5 miles.
I planned to sell my existing car and buy a Honda S2000 this year, after
reading about ICE cars, their efficiently level, the damage they do to the
environment, resource wars (present and future) and little things like this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12356099/
Then there's the suspicious death of the EV1 et al. It's basically all
bollocks really, so instead of buying a shiny new S2000, it's a 12 year old
Civic + some batteries. One of the main things about going electric was
keeping some kind of performance.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2006 1:16 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: I'm confused...
David Ankers wrote:
> It relates to AC vs DC.
Actually, nothing you said affects the decision of whether to use an AC
or DC drive system.
> converting a car, something like a Honda Civic... 1992-1998.
A reasonable choice.
> 1. Max range of 25 miles (40km) but without stressing the batteries
> too much.
Ok; then aim to have enough batteries for a 50-mile range. This keeps
your depth of discharge to 50%, so the batteries will last a lot longer.
> 2. Needs to be able to keep with traffic on the freeway - 110km/h >
(65mph)
Ok; then you will be discharging the batteries in less than an hour (50
miles at 65 mph takes 46 minutes). This means you can't use cheap
flooded batteries -- you'll have to use premium AGM lead-acids, or some
higher-tech batteries like nicads or nimh.
> 3. Needs to get to 100kmh (60mph) as fast as possible. < 6 sec 0 to
> 60 time, but 5 seconds would be nice.
That is *very* fast. You're asking for sports car like accelleration.
Besides requiring premium AGMs or other expensive batteries, you will
need a very large motor and controller. Possible, but you are heading
for an expensive project.
> 4. Using AGL cells. I guess a higher voltage setup but with smaller
> batteries?
Do you mean AGM?
Voltage per se isn't relevant; however, the commonly available motors
and controllers that can deliver the kind of power you're asking for
will need a fairly high system voltage. 144v is probably the minimum,
higher would make it easier.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AC Propulsion <http://www.acpropulsion.com> built a Civic like you
spec'd. I'd guess it would be around $30k to $40k to build. A DC
system would be much cheaper and could get the job done.
If you really want 0-60 mph in 5 seconds, you should probably be
thinking of a real sports car more designed for speed. Rear wheel
drive or AWD would be more up to the task. Also, if it is just 0-60
you want to optimize, you'll want to keep the transmission. Then you
can pick a near perfect gear ratio just by moving the shift lever. If
you have a fixed ratio direct-drive, then you have to compromise top
speed vs. acceleration and the gear ratio is hard to change.
--- David Ankers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>
> I'm sorry if this has been brought up many times, I expect it has.
> I'll make
> it short and simple:
>
> It relates to AC vs DC. I'm just starting to look in to converting
> a car,
> I'm thinking about something like a Honda Civic no older than 1992
> and no
> newer than 1998. The car needs:
>
> 1. Max range of 25 miles (40km) but without stressing the batteries
> to much.
>
> 2. Needs to be able to keep with traffic on the freeway - 110km/h
> (65mph)
>
> 3. Needs to get to 100kmh (60mph) as fast as possible. < 6 sec 0 to
> 60 time
> but 5 seconds would be nice.
>
> 4. Using AGL cells. I guess a higher voltage setup but with smaller
> batteries?
>
> Is this practical?
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I had considered was putting a neon bulb in series with a small relay coil
>across the controller. Bill Dennis
Sorry, I meant to say, "a transistor-controller relay". The B-E of the
transistor would be in series with the bulb, the C-E of the transistor
controller the relay coil. But now that I think of it, maybe I just need
the transistor and not the attached relay.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"fuselink"
"fusible link"
Danny
Mark Freidberg wrote:
Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How about using a fuse wire.
This is of interest.
You can get the fuse wire in No. AWG 18 to No. AWG 8 at a auto parts store.
Does it go by names other then "fuse wire?" Searching online I didn't see any.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a telecom/railway battery. It looks like the same problem as
those phenomenally cheap huge capacity DataSafe batteries a guy had tons
of on eBay.
The DataSafes turned out not to be designed for high current and,
despite being an AGM cell, were only rated for a VERY limited number of
cycles. They had a 10 or 20 yr standby rating. The idea is they'd be
able to provide large volumes of emergency power but could only do it a
few times. And that was made by Hawker; it's not a poorly designed
battery, it was just designed for very different circumstances and would
perform poorly in an inappropriate application like an EV. I noticed
the eBay guy said they were part of a solar setup, which is a tragically
wrong choice of batteries and no doubt why he was selling them off. He
probably blew through their rated cycle life in under a month.
Anyways what you're looking at is a GNB Marathon battery. It also
specifies "telecom" and "railway", which makes me think this is a
similar design. In fact the spec sheet mentions it is designed for low
current discharges (that alone rules out its usefulness in an EV). I
suspect it may have similar cycle life limitations too.
There's the website, but it has no spec sheets:
http://217.7.78.166/rs_start.asp?lng=en&gnb=2
<http://217.7.78.166/rs_start.asp?lng=en&gnb=2>
Danny
John F. Norton wrote:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2006042322194411&item=11-3054&catname=electric
6v 180 ah agm's that are system takeouts from telecom - $30 ea. The
new version of these are $300 batteries. Specs look pretty good.
Likely cycle life is down, but if they are gonna get blowed up anyway....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Stefan Peters wrote:
Why not put a safety contactor that pulls out on each dead throttle
event between the controller and motor? It wouldn't (shouldn't) be
breaking any current... so not much wear and tear. Would this be
bad for the controller or contactor?
Contactors are rated for *millions* of on/off cycles at light load; so
you aren't going to wear them out from switching every time you release
the throttle.
But, I think some people have the *impression* that this is bad for the
contactor. Also, some just don't like the click/clunk noise
That's what vibration isolation mounts are for (MSD has a very nice and
tough set normally used for their ignition boxes...) ;-)
Always good information, Lee - but what I was referring to specifically
was avoiding cycling the controller by simply putting a contactor
between the controller and the motor. I like the idea that when my car
is off, it's OFF - no main contactor bypass.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd be interested myself about what you people may recommend for a 0 - 60 5
second car. How about a WarP 11" with a Zilla 2k and Orbitals? 200 HP? What
would be the 0 - 60 for this?
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: I'm confused...
EEkk.. I guess I just posted the typical newbie post where I want
everything. Opps
Yes I meant AGM batteries. Didn't realize the range was worked out that
way,
I thought people spoke about range without killing the batteries - so
range
is *max* range running the batteries totally flat? In that case, I could
just get away with 60 km (40 miles) range; it would be very rare I did
much
more than 30 km between charges.
The car will hardly ever do freeway driving but sometimes it's easier to
use
the freeway to do 4 or 5 miles.
I planned to sell my existing car and buy a Honda S2000 this year, after
reading about ICE cars, their efficiently level, the damage they do to the
environment, resource wars (present and future) and little things like
this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12356099/
Then there's the suspicious death of the EV1 et al. It's basically all
bollocks really, so instead of buying a shiny new S2000, it's a 12 year
old
Civic + some batteries. One of the main things about going electric was
keeping some kind of performance.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2006 1:16 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: I'm confused...
David Ankers wrote:
It relates to AC vs DC.
Actually, nothing you said affects the decision of whether to use an AC
or DC drive system.
converting a car, something like a Honda Civic... 1992-1998.
A reasonable choice.
1. Max range of 25 miles (40km) but without stressing the batteries
too much.
Ok; then aim to have enough batteries for a 50-mile range. This keeps
your depth of discharge to 50%, so the batteries will last a lot longer.
2. Needs to be able to keep with traffic on the freeway - 110km/h >
(65mph)
Ok; then you will be discharging the batteries in less than an hour (50
miles at 65 mph takes 46 minutes). This means you can't use cheap
flooded batteries -- you'll have to use premium AGM lead-acids, or some
higher-tech batteries like nicads or nimh.
3. Needs to get to 100kmh (60mph) as fast as possible. < 6 sec 0 to
60 time, but 5 seconds would be nice.
That is *very* fast. You're asking for sports car like accelleration.
Besides requiring premium AGMs or other expensive batteries, you will
need a very large motor and controller. Possible, but you are heading
for an expensive project.
4. Using AGL cells. I guess a higher voltage setup but with smaller
batteries?
Do you mean AGM?
Voltage per se isn't relevant; however, the commonly available motors
and controllers that can deliver the kind of power you're asking for
will need a fairly high system voltage. 144v is probably the minimum,
higher would make it easier.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Li Ion recall.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2006-04-20T142208Z_01_N20348674_RTRUKOC_0_US-HP-RECALL.xml
That looks like a dead link. Can you post the story or a new URL?
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
link is ok:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Hewlett-Packard Co. is recalling about 15,700 HP and
Compaq notebook computer batteries worldwide for a burn and fire hazard, the
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission said on Thursday.
HP has received 20 reports of batteries overheating, including two in the
United States, with one report of a minor burn injury, the agency said.
The recall is for lithium ion rechargeable batteries manufactured in early
January 2005 and used with various HP and Compaq notebook computers. The
affected batteries have a bar code label starting with L3, the agency said.
About 4,100 of the recalled batteries covered were in the United States.
The batteries were manufactured in China, and the computers were sold in the
United States at retail and online stores from January 2005 through December
2005 for between $1,000 and $3,000, the CPSC said. Battery packs were also
sold separately for between $100 and $300.
The computers that may contain a recalled battery include the model series:
dv1xxx and ze2xxx in the HP Pavilion Family, nx48xx in the HP Compaq Family,
and V2xxx and M2xxx in the Compaq Presario Family, according to the CPSC.
The agency said consumers with an "L3" coded battery should stop using it
immediately and contact HP to determine if the battery is being recalled and
for a free replacement battery if it is included in the recall.
Consumers can get additional information by calling HP at 888-202-4320, or
visiting the HP Battery Replacement Program Web site at
www.hp.com/support/BatteryReplacement.
© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Li Ion recall
> > Li Ion recall.
> >
> >
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2006-04-20T142208Z_01_N20348674_RTRUKOC_0_US-HP-RECALL.xml
>
> That looks like a dead link. Can you post the story or a new URL?
>
> -Ken Trough
> V is for Voltage
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The wrap might make it non-clickable. Seems to work but here is a shortened link
http://tinyurl.com/fony3
Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Li Ion recall.
>
> http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2006-04-20T142208Z_01_N20348674_RTRUKOC_0_US-HP-RECALL.xml
That looks like a dead link. Can you post the story or a new URL?
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Hewlett-Packard Co. is recalling about 15,700
HP and Compaq notebook computer batteries worldwide for a burn and fire
hazard
Thanks Philippe! I guess my handheld just couldn't parse the page
properly or something. I really appreciate you posting the info.
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
I am trying to make some educated guesses as to sizing a battery pack.
The application is a high performance electric motorcycle of the "sport
bike" variety. Basic race type fairing but not a massive one like a
Vetter, so I know the wind profile is not at all optimal.
I need to be able to travel at 60-80 mph for a total of 100 miles. I
have high draw li-poly cells with integrated BMS for low weight and max
range. I am running at 80-90V. I have the motor/controller and chassis
figured out.
Any guesstimate ranges as to how much capacity I will need to accomplish
this. I know it is going to be a lot of money. I am planning on
$10K-$15K for the battery pack alone based on the cells I am looking at,
so don't bother to tell me this is too expensive to be practical. I
already know. 8^)
Is an 85V 100Ah pack going to cut it? Is that large a pack massive
overkill, or just scraping by?
I understand that some aspects of this are vague. I'll be crunching some
numbers and calculating wind resistance, efficiency and so forth if the
project progresses. Right now I am just trolling for your thoughts on
the project.
Has anyone built a 100 mile, 80 mph lithium powered bike before? If not,
who has come the closest?
If this project moves forward, I will definately share all the data that
I collect for others to benefit from.
Thanks in advance for all responses!
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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David,
If you hardly ever do freeway driving, then
you better consider how much you want to pay
for taking off that fast.
Is this just the fun factor that you want to build in?
My light truck - like most >real< trucks - need a
calendar instead of a stopwatch to time the 0 - 60
but that does not mean that I need to avoid the Freeway,
I only need to time my merge so I 'fit' in the slot
and do like all other trucks - take the slow lane or
(preferably) the lane just adjacent if there are at least
3 lanes, so all speed devils can get around me iso trying
to get over me. And I am not bothered by all the merging
traffic.
The 30 or more seconds it takes to reach cruising speed
does not bother me at all, I can usually keep up with
most traffic and the traffic I can't keep up with I
usually do not want to be part of. (can you say jerk)
(not implying you are one!)
But I just notice how people drive, some switch lanes
more frequently than blinking their eyes.
I feel better after driving my EV, because it relaxes me
while my gas car always gives me a feeling that I can go
faster and must keep up with traffic in the fast lane,
so I am tempted to become one of the jerks, just to be
a minute earlier in line at the next traffic light.
Anyway - to get back to your questions:
WHAT is it you want?
- a racer to show off the power of EV, investing serious money
to build it, but you want to be proud of its performance?
(Google for Tzero, Wrightspeed and other fast EVs?)
This sounds like the 5 sec 0 - 60 you asked for, but not the
reason you gave for it, you were reasoning like a new car ad.
- a daily commute vehicle that does freeway speed every day
and can merge quickly onto a freeway, so a 10 sec 0 - 60
is a nice target?
- an around city driving vehicle that occasionally sees the
freeway, so a 60 MPH top speed is required but fast
acceleration is not required (0 - 60 in 20 sec or so)
The last one is automatically the cheapest and simplest to
make, the first the most challenging and expensive.
If you want the performance you asked for (the first vehicle)
then you will need a lot of high-performance battery (more
power burned each start) while the other two vehicle types
can easily give you what you want in range using cheap
lead-acid batteries.
Rule of thumb: 200 WattHour per mile for a good sedan EV,
350 WattHour per mile for a light truck EV.
Some EVs get much less than this figure, but most are not
conversion vehicles.
40 miles of range means 8 kWh available in your batteries
for a sedan at a discharge rate of less than 1 hour, so you
need to double this capacity to find the approximate size
of your capacity at the normal spec of 20 hour discharge rate
say 16 kWh.
With cheap Trojan T105 (225Ah) you would only need 12 batteries
(12 x 6V = 72V, 72V x 225Ah = 16 kWh) but this voltage barely
produces freeway capable vehicles and losses also eat into the
voltage from the battery, so would recommend at least 96V,
which requires 16 batteries. These can be placed in many small
vehicles, giving you a peppy ride due to the low vehicle weight
and enough range to also be comfortable in cold weather
(when lead acid batteries perform less)
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 9:04 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: I'm confused...
EEkk.. I guess I just posted the typical newbie post where I want
everything. Opps
Yes I meant AGM batteries. Didn't realize the range was worked out that way,
I thought people spoke about range without killing the batteries - so range
is *max* range running the batteries totally flat? In that case, I could
just get away with 60 km (40 miles) range; it would be very rare I did much
more than 30 km between charges.
The car will hardly ever do freeway driving but sometimes it's easier to use
the freeway to do 4 or 5 miles.
I planned to sell my existing car and buy a Honda S2000 this year, after
reading about ICE cars, their efficiently level, the damage they do to the
environment, resource wars (present and future) and little things like this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12356099/
Then there's the suspicious death of the EV1 et al. It's basically all
bollocks really, so instead of buying a shiny new S2000, it's a 12 year old
Civic + some batteries. One of the main things about going electric was
keeping some kind of performance.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, 25 April 2006 1:16 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: I'm confused...
David Ankers wrote:
> It relates to AC vs DC.
Actually, nothing you said affects the decision of whether to use an AC
or DC drive system.
> converting a car, something like a Honda Civic... 1992-1998.
A reasonable choice.
> 1. Max range of 25 miles (40km) but without stressing the batteries
> too much.
Ok; then aim to have enough batteries for a 50-mile range. This keeps
your depth of discharge to 50%, so the batteries will last a lot longer.
> 2. Needs to be able to keep with traffic on the freeway - 110km/h >
(65mph)
Ok; then you will be discharging the batteries in less than an hour (50
miles at 65 mph takes 46 minutes). This means you can't use cheap
flooded batteries -- you'll have to use premium AGM lead-acids, or some
higher-tech batteries like nicads or nimh.
> 3. Needs to get to 100kmh (60mph) as fast as possible. < 6 sec 0 to
> 60 time, but 5 seconds would be nice.
That is *very* fast. You're asking for sports car like accelleration.
Besides requiring premium AGMs or other expensive batteries, you will
need a very large motor and controller. Possible, but you are heading
for an expensive project.
> 4. Using AGL cells. I guess a higher voltage setup but with smaller
> batteries?
Do you mean AGM?
Voltage per se isn't relevant; however, the commonly available motors
and controllers that can deliver the kind of power you're asking for
will need a fairly high system voltage. 144v is probably the minimum,
higher would make it easier.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I was wondering if there are any members of the list that have done
conversion in Australia, specifically around the Melbourne area? I plan on
starting a conversion as soon I have sold my petrol powered car and
I was wondering if there are any fellow EV'ers that could answer
Australian related questions such as where to source parts such as
motors and batteries or even companies to contact to get some things completed?
Here's the list of Australian resources that I send to people who inquire:
Australian Electric Vehicle Association http://www.aeva.asn.au
Advanced DC motor: EV-motors, Kenthurst NSW
http://www.evmotors.com.au/ - Dr. Michael Symons
Curtis controllers, etc: Bylong Industries, Crows Nest NSW
http://www.bylongind.com.au/ - Michael King
Battery charger: Woods Battery Chargers, Thornton NSW
http://woodsbatterychargers.com/ - Shaun Woods
Trojan batteries: ALCO Battery Sales, Penrith NSW - 02 4722-2588
Vacuum pump: Rietschle Thomas Australia, Seven Hills NSW
http://www.rietschle.co.uk/company/contact_australia.asp
Cables: Pro-Lec in Castle Hill 02 9680 4718
Anderson Connectors: Ashdown Auto Electrical in Silverwater 02 9681 2711
Adaptors: Cleveland Electronic Services
http://members.austarmetro.com.au/~clevefj
One person's list of parts, costs, and suppliers:
http://www.electric-echo.com/prices.htm
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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Bob wrote:
> The rise in gas prices has me once again, thinking
> about what the "on-the-fence"-er needs to get their
> project done.
> The point is that if I was to ask a fabricating
> shop to crank out the front headlight rack, the
> firewall batt. rack, the trunk rack, and the motor
> mount, and I tossed in the controller mount, the
> vacuum pump mount, and the controller mount, would
> that be enough for those person(s) to hop off the
> fence and get started.
The situation is purely a financial one. A lot of people out there
that would be willing to drive an EV just don't have $8,000+ burning a
hole in their pocket for them to spend on the conversion.
Every time I've ever spoken to anyone about EV's they ask how much. I
don't know if their expecting it to cost them ~$5 or what. I think
they'd even balk at $500.
I was adding up the cost of my yet to be conversion, retail prices
mind you. Motor(13", might end up being a double 9"...),
Controller(Big Z2K+), Charger(~$2500), 29 AGM's, $14,605.... And we're
just getting started! That's just for the big purchase items too...
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We build a 130 miles (at 25mph) electric scooter it use 3,6Kwh battery pack
with an efficient motor (Lynch)
My calculation for 50 mph show only double energy necessity with motorcycle
fairing gain (far best than scooter) BUT 4 times this for 100mph AND
100miles so we are talking about near 30Kwh battery pack.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 9:09 PM
Subject: How much battery capacity would this require?
> I am trying to make some educated guesses as to sizing a battery pack.
>
> The application is a high performance electric motorcycle of the "sport
> bike" variety. Basic race type fairing but not a massive one like a
> Vetter, so I know the wind profile is not at all optimal.
>
> I need to be able to travel at 60-80 mph for a total of 100 miles. I
> have high draw li-poly cells with integrated BMS for low weight and max
> range. I am running at 80-90V. I have the motor/controller and chassis
> figured out.
>
> Any guesstimate ranges as to how much capacity I will need to accomplish
> this. I know it is going to be a lot of money. I am planning on
> $10K-$15K for the battery pack alone based on the cells I am looking at,
> so don't bother to tell me this is too expensive to be practical. I
> already know. 8^)
>
> Is an 85V 100Ah pack going to cut it? Is that large a pack massive
> overkill, or just scraping by?
>
> I understand that some aspects of this are vague. I'll be crunching some
> numbers and calculating wind resistance, efficiency and so forth if the
> project progresses. Right now I am just trolling for your thoughts on
> the project.
>
> Has anyone built a 100 mile, 80 mph lithium powered bike before? If not,
> who has come the closest?
>
> If this project moves forward, I will definately share all the data that
> I collect for others to benefit from.
>
> Thanks in advance for all responses!
>
> -Ken Trough
> V is for Voltage
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM/YM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
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