EV Digest 5417
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Zilla anyone
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Now that's a hybrid
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: V28 battery (and other lithium cells)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Now that's a hybrid
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Speedometer without a transmission?
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: running hot
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Zilla anyone
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zilla anyone
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Now that's a hybrid
by Edward Kellogg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Question about attaching Curtis 1221c to heatsink
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: longest range?
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: which comes first
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) What time line is there on Zilla controllers?
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Blower down.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Hybrid legalities
by "Erik G. Burrows" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Now that's a hybrid
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Seth,
Let me see, oh I found it. Here is a E-mail of a guy that has lots of them,
may have a used one, but does have new ones. He is Otmar Ebenhoach of Café
Electric.
I bought the Zilla and all his products from him. And here's the great
thing, If you need to as any technical details on the Zilla's, just E-mail
him and he will answer your call, after he sorts out's 100's of E-mail on
Zilla's that he design and manufactures.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Rothenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 9:25 PM
Subject: Zilla anyone
> Rethinking my earlier comments, I'm thinking maybe
> I should just spring for a Zilla Z1K.
> Looking at their web site, it's not clear if
> they are currently available.
>
> Does anyone have a used one?
>
>
> BTW, If I use a motor that is bigger than the
> minimum required for the job, will it automatically
> consume more power? In theory, it will allow me
> to gear up to try to find the big motor's sweet spot.
>
> ...and, raising voltage will reduce amps to get
> the same power, right?...thus the desire for 156V
> if it's not too heavy.
>
>
> Thanks alot.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Mark, I certainly won't be street racing it :-) As you state, I just
want the power for the odd fast take off and also to show a bit of what an
EV can do. I've spoke to a few people I know in the last week or so and they
have bad perceptions of electric Vehicles (generally "handicap chariots" are
mentioned) so I'd rather it was faster than the average Civic.
Also, WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE WITH PLUGGING A CAR IN? I've heard that a
lot. I hate getting petrol and plugging in is a bonus for me. I wonder if
these people have any electrical appliances at home? Of course, unless
they're secretly Amish then I'm truly sorry.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Fowler
Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 7:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
David,
Yes, one motor is plenty in a Civic sized car.
Yes, you can get that sort of power from an 8" or 9" motor.
(They get hot when you push them that hard though.)
Just remember that you are building a street car for Australian roads.
Being electric, you wont have the range to get out into the countryside,
so mostly sub/urban streets with a bit of motorway/freeway thrown in for
good measure.
You are not going to be circuit racing this thing, so you won't need
massive power for long periods.
Just short bursts for taking off from the lights, getting up to speed on
the motorway, passing etc.
No probs with overheating the motor.
Don't forget that the cars you are considering are front wheel drive, so
traction will be your limiting factor for max power anyway.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Ankers
> Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 6:08 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: RE: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
>
>
> Thank you. My only remaining question would be: is that
> possible with a
> *single* 8" or 9" motor? Or am I asking too much?
>
> Apart from hat minor question, things look great (especially
> great if it's
> possible with an impulse motor).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 12:38 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: RE: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
>
> 170V * 1000A = 170,000/750 = 226hp * .60(EFFIENCY) about 135HP
>
> or
>
> 1000 amps = 240lb ft at 96volts at motor if you can keep a 96 volt
> differential and stay in current limit at 100 amps for x seconds and
> know the mass of your vehicle and a few more things like gear
> ratio and
> tire diameter you can get G-forces and integrate. then take your
> rpm*torque/5252 = hp
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Damon,
That works, I do about the same thing.
Here in Montana, I only drive my EV not more than a 5 mile radius from my
home, because to go any further, you are now going up steep hills, or
mountain roads.
If I need to go further and up these mountain roads going over the
continental divide, I will in the same hour after I make a short round trip
to my home, I will switch to my other car, which is a sister car of the EV
which is a 1977 El Camino, except the El Camino is dark blue with a white
vinyl top and the other one is a red with a white vinyl top with a Vette
engine in it.
I wonder what a person calls it when I tow the EV with the ICE?
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<ListServ@electricmotorcycles.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 10:41 PM
Subject: Now that's a hybrid
> One thing that bugs me on the EVDL is the occasional bickering over what a
> real hybrid is. I especially get annoyed by those who want to claim that
> my
> Honda Insight isn't a real hybrid. Well I ran my own homemade Hybrid
> today,
> and this one matches all the usual criteria people use to define a hybrid
> so
> I'm sure that everyone will agree that this is a real hybrid. Actually,
> being that this is the EVDL I know that at least on person will have a
> contrary opinion, but I'll just ignore it :-)
>
> My base vehicle is my old mostly broken down 1994 4.0 Litre Ford Aerostar.
> I have outfitted it with a 6.7 inch ADC motor and 45 of my BB600 cells
> along
> with a 400 amp Alltrax controller. It works like a charm. I did almost
> exactly 50/50 gas and electric on my 26 mile commute this morning, then
> charged at work and turned around and did the same on the way home. This
> may sound like a tough thing to acomplish, but as has been pointed out on
> this list many times the devil is in the details. I simply loaded my EV
> motorcycle up in the back of my van and drove halfway to work, then
> unloaded
> and rode the rest of the way...
>
> Actually this was a test run for doing the whole thing electric, although
> even then the van will have a role. I have been working on building a
> dump
> charger to locate half way along the route, but after doing some testing
> decided that swapable packs will be a better option for me. I can easily
> put something together that can be swapped in 5 minutes, and the dump pack
> was taking much longer than that, plus it's hard to get a good finish
> charge
> with a dump pack. It was fun chargin at 200+ amps though :-)
>
> I know from everyday riding, that the first half of my commute is doable
> on
> a single charge, but I wasn't sure how much tougher the second half of the
> run would be. I have a two mile very steep grade to climb to get over the
> hills. I'm using back roads, so the speed limit is slower which is an
> advantage as far as ahrs used, but the gearing on my EM is such that I was
> worried I might overheat my motor at the lower RPMs. The motor did get
> hot,
> but not so hot to have me worried. It all worked out, but by the time I
> got
> to work my pack was feeling very drained, as well it should, since the
> Emeter had me down more than 39 ahrs. This is from batteries that are
> rated
> at 30 ahrs at the 1C rate. Man I love NiCads. I did have some extra
> weight
> on board as I was carrying my charge with me and a few other things in a
> backpack. The ride back from work to the van only took 35 ahrs without
> the
> extra load. Also, at work one of my coworkers noted that my tires looked
> a
> bit low. Duh... it's been a while since I checked them, so I had a look
> when I got back home, and sure enough, they were down around 15 lbs
> instead
> of the 30 they should be at. So I'm feeling pretty good now about this
> working out long term. All I need to do now is throw together a couple of
> extra battery packs and tweak things to make them a bit easier to swap
> out,
> and I'm golden.
>
> I had originally hoped to find a host for a charging station, but since I
> am
> cutting it so close on range, I think I like the idea of battery swapping
> better. That way, I can watch the batteries charge at home and know that
> they are in good shape before I head out. I will probably start off with
> a
> total of 3 packs, which will give me a two day cycle. On the first day I
> will drive halfway, then ride the rest, charge at work, return to the van,
> swap packs and come home. Charge at home drive to the van the next day,
> swap packs, drive to work, charge, return to the van and drive home. If
> it
> works out well, I may make up more packs, but right now I'm still a bit of
> a
> fair weather rider, and I generally work from home at least one day a
> week,
> so a two day cycle sounds about right.
>
> I've already manged to put over 3100 electric miles on the bike without
> using it to commute. If this works out well, I will be putting many more
> on
> it over the next few months, and that frees up the Insight for my wife to
> drive.
>
> damon
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
> I read in a battery management IC's datasheet that the cell impedance
> may double over the lifetime of the battery. Is this true?
> How can one tell which chemistries apply to the rule (V28, A123,
> normal)?
Sounds like you were reading a TI/Benchmarq datasheet ;^>
You seem to have contacts at TI; the fellow you need to speak to is
Yevgen Barsukov, in the Battery Management Applications dept.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Now that's a hybrid
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 04:33:10 -0700 (MST)
FWIW, if you ignore aerodynamic looses, the energy required to climb a
hill is basically the same whether you go up it fast or slow. So, if you
have the power, you are better off going up it fast and keeping the motor
heating down.
You might have the best results by taking a run at it and keeping the
throttle wide open the whole way up.
Yeah, this is true. On the way to work, the climb is very steep and curvey.
I did take it about as fast as I could. I probably averaged 30+ mph going
up it which was about all my bike could do. It seems that the worst curves
have the steepest grade right after them. The other side has a few steep
parts, but is not nearly as bad. I was more in the 40's on this side so at
these speeds areo does start to become a significant factor. I think the
coming home from work climb actually heated things up the most. Several
minutes of 200 - 250 amps through a 6.7 inch motor will do that. The good
new is that once I peak the hill, it's straight back down, so I literally
get to coast the whole way down which lets the internal fan keep spinning
without any current draw.
Of course with less weight and decent tire pressure, I expect the next trip
to work out even better.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> In other words, a 50KWh flywheel disassembling itself would result in
> a big-assed explosion :-(
Yes, this is how I see it as well. Storing that kind of energy in one
large flywheel makes it virtually impossible to safely contain the
energy released if it fails catastrophically.
Such a flywheel might make sense for a stationary installation, where it
could be buried or bunkered for safety. But it seems hopeless to put in
a vehicle, subject to shock and vibration, crashes, wear-out, etc.
In a vehicle, I think you would have to use many, far smaller flywheel
"batteries", so that the failure of one wouldn't be nearly as energetic
or hard to contain.
I can well imagine a flywheel "battery" for a hybrid car, where the
flywheel only has to absorb the energy from *one* 60-0 mph stop, and
returns it 30 seconds later for the 0-60 mph accelleration. Now the peak
energy storage is manageable without exotic expensive techniques.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are also some 60's and 70's version cars that had a speedo attachment on
the driver' side front wheel. Might look at a junk yard. It would be more of
a low tech solution.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> mreish wrote:
> > Quoting Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >
> >> Since there are a number of people on the list without transmissions
> >> where did you get a speedo to work without one. I see racing ones and
> >> some GPS ones but they have a pretty high premium. Is there a run of
> >> the mill speedo that I can use with a driveshaft that someone can
> >> point me to?
> >
> > It's pretty common in the motorcycle world to use bicycle speedos.
> > These have a
> > magnet that you attach to some rotating part and a hall effect sensor
> > that sends
> > signals to the display. If that's too cheesy for ya you can hook said
> > hall
> > effect sensor up to a pic or other micro controller and display our
> > speed/mileage/etc on a nifty inexpensive LCD.
> >
> > I've done three bikes with the bicycle speedo but for my current bike
> > I'm going
> > with the latter option. I picked up a 16x2 LCD display and a BS2 off
> > ebay
> > pretty cheap and now I have a high-tech looking dash.
> >
> > I plan on creating a Wiki for my project and releasing it under GPL or
> > Creative
> > Commons or some sort of license.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > http://www.electricmotorcycles.net
> >
>
> http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=109/category_id=105/home_id=59/mode=prod/prd109.htm
>
> At the bottom of the page.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian Baumel wrote:
> It seems my controller overheats at about 5 miles. I was only going
> 30mph average. Why am I overheating? It is a Aapi H2B w/regen...
> mounted to a 18" X 22" X 1/4" aluminum plate
It sounds like you don't have any actual heatsink; just the surface area
of the aluminum plate itself. Especially with no fan, that's not going
to work very well.
A heatsink's performance is controlled by its surface area. Fins are
used to get large surface areas from relatively small parts. A flat
plate is a "one fin" heatsink; not very effective. Counting both sides,
your 18"x22" plate has 792 sq.in of surface area.
Suppose you replaced it with a typical heatsink, about the same size as
your controller (10" x 15") but with 2" fins on 0.5" centers. Now your
surface area is 10" x 15" x 2 = 300 sq.in for the plate itself, plus 2"
x 15" x 21 = 630 sq.in for the fins, for a total of 930 sq.in. Far
smaller, yet more area; thus the controler runs cooler.
Better; get the heatsink's fins "out in the breeze" or add a fan, and
you will drastically increase its cooling effectiveness.
Another possibility: Are you driving it like an ICE, with motor rpm as
low as possible? This forces motor current to be as *high* as possible,
which makes the motor and controller run much hotter. You should shift
to keep motor speed *high* in an EV, for better cooling and efficiency.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Being in a metric country, I have never heard of a "metric pound" - where is
this used?!?? As for the "US Pound", sorry to say, it is really called the
"international pound" or the "avoirdupois pound".
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: April 27, 2006 12:16 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
Slight math error:
12 kg is over 26 lbs,
as a US pound is almost 1/2 kg.
(a metric pound is exactly 1/2 kg)
Note that to store this amount of energy in a flywheel is must be about 2 ft
in diameter and about 500 lbs heavy and run somewhere around 30,000 RPM.
For the record: I do not believe in a gentle de-lamination and spooling down
of the flywheel, because it has magnetic bearings! as soon as it loses just
a tiny bit from one side it is no longer in balance, the bearings will lose
containment and I have trouble to see anything else than an immediate,
destructive, release of energy.
Either a release of a large amount of super-heated steel vapor (the former
housing "rubbed away") or shrapnel in all lanes of the road. In a battery
there is internal resistance and a fuse to limit the instantaneous power
release.
What safety is limiting the flywheel from releasing all its power in a
fraction of a second?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:50 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EMB's .. Electro Mechanical Batteries
On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 08:03:39 -0700, Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>The rotors were comprised of a composite material that was essentially
>like thread wound onto a bobbin that was held in place by a resin --
>sort of like a wheel comprised of spindled fiberglass thread. The idea
>being that in a catastrophic rotor delamination, it would merely
>unravel. I'm not sure what form the energy would take -- heat, I
>guess. Also, the modules were designed to contain in the event of such
>a failure.
This claim by the flywheel advocates is where I start having heartburn.
I've calculated the energy release effects before but this time I decided to
it in familiar EV terms.
Let's suppose a 50KWh flywheel. That would be equivalent to a 250 volt, 200
amp-hour pack. A nice pack that would make an EV quite practical for many
people.
Suppose that this energy is explosively released, as in a flywheel failure.
How does that much energy compare to other familiar energetic events?
I decided to put this energy release in terms of pounds of TNT. We've all
seen hand grenades and bombs explode, if not in military service then on the
news.
>From reference material, I find that TNT releases about 15KJ per gram
or about 4 kilocalories per gram. Using a units conversion program I
convert that to 4.1667 watt-hours per gram.
If 50KWh is released essentially instantly, that is, explosively, then that
works out to 50KWh /4.1667 WH/gm = 12,000 grams = the explosion of 12kg of
TNT. Twelve kilograms is 5.45 lbs.
Thus, a 50KWh flywheel disintegrating releases the same explosive energy as
about five and a half pounds of TNT.
To put this in perspective, a standard WW-II "pineapple" US hand
grenade:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-30/appf.h
tm
Contained 55 grams of TNT. The flywheel releases 12,000/55 = 218 hand
grenade's worth of explosive energy.
The modern M26 hand grenade that looks like a green orange (on that same
page above.) contains 170 grams equiv of TNT. Thus one flywheel explosion
is equivalent to 12,000/170 = 7 M26 hand grenades.
In other words, a 50KWh flywheel disassembling itself would result in a
big-assed explosion :-(
Even if they somehow figure out how to slow the disintegration (I can't
imagine how but play along) so that it takes place over, say, a second,
50KWh released inside the container will still vaporize the contents and
burst the housing from pressure. It won't be a high explosion but it WILL
be an explosion similar to a steam or black powder explosion. A seriously
large one.
Almost any failure mechanism (flywheel burst, bearing failure, generator
rotor failure, vacuum failure, etc) one can anticipate results in explosive
energy release, something even the most energetic battery chemistry doesn't
face. I just don't see the application fit in the mobile environment where
weight considerations preclude any sort of containment vessel.
I had my first net.discussion in this area back in the mid-80s when the
Internet was still a wee pup. The flywheel advocates tried to wave their
arms and make this problem go away back then and 20 years later I don't see
that anything has changed. I'm neither pro- or anti-flywheel. I'm simply
trying to evaluate the risk involved in that sort of energy release.
I'm NOT a flywheel expert nor a materials nor a kinetics expert so I quite
possibly could be wrong in concept or have made a math mistake and I welcome
corrections. But I don't think I'm wrong.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN Don't let your schooling interfere with your
education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> Being in a metric country, I have never heard of a "metric pound" - where is
> this used?!?? As for the "US Pound", sorry to say, it is really called the
> "international pound" or the "avoirdupois pound".
I'd never heard of it before either, but according to wikipedia:
"In many countries that use the SI or metric system, the pound (or its
translation, for example, the German Pfund, the French livre, the
Dutch pond, the Spanish and Portuguese libras, or the Chinese jin) is
used as an informal term for half of a kilogram, therefore for this
case the pound is 500 grams. In many cases, this was an official
redefinition back in the 19th century, but its use is generally no
longer officially sanctioned. These replaced hundreds of older pounds,
for example, one of around 459 to 460 grams in Spain, Portugal, and
Latin America; 498.1 g in Norway; and several different ones in what
is now Germany. In the case of the Dutch pond, this was officially
redefined as 1 kg, with an ounce of 100 g; the former has fallen out
of use, and if the pound is used today it is likely the 500 g variety,
but the 100 g ounce remains in limited use."
Bizarre. Anyway, apparently your Avoirdupois pound is 0.45359237 kg currently!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Rothenberg" <
Hi Seth , I have a 1k 156v zillia that's been in my work truck , Its used ,
but I'd want the same price as a new one for it ( then I'd up grade to 300v)
. Same thing with the PFC chargers , (thats how good they are) . Maybe
somebody out there is looking to upgrade , but if they sell it for less then
the new price , I'd be surprised. Now a t-zex or curits will go much cheaper
, . Also if you buy from a dealer , you "should" have the dealers help with
any and problems setting it up , I may be wrong but I think Otmar would
rather have people deal with EV parts dealers than to deal with him direct
( after all he has controllers to make ) . Once you buy your parts for a
dealer you should ask that dealer any and all questions.
Rethinking my earlier comments, I'm thinking maybe
I should just spring for a Zilla Z1K.
I would
Looking at their web site, it's not clear if
they are currently available.
yes but there is a line , the sooner you get in the sooner you get one .
Good food and good controllers don't happen fast :-)
Does anyone have a used one?
BTW, If I use a motor that is bigger than the
minimum required for the job, will it automatically
consume more power?
no , my 11" net gain may even use a little less that the 9 but as there are
many factors , I couldn't say one used more that the other.
In theory, it will allow me
to gear up to try to find the big motor's sweet spot.
the 11" net gain has 2x the toqure at the same voltage/ amparge ( half the
rpm ) , I find it works good just leaving it in 4th ,
...and, raising voltage will reduce amps to get
the same power, right?...thus the desire for 156V
if it's not too heavy.
yep , and as you batteries won't be working so hard they can work longer .
Steve Clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
Thanks alot.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
steve clunn wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Rothenberg" <
Hi Seth , I have a 1k 156v zillia that's been in my work truck , Its
used , but I'd want the same price as a new one for it ( then I'd up
grade to 300v) . Same thing with the PFC chargers , (thats how good
they are) . Maybe somebody out there is looking to upgrade , but if
they sell it for less then the new price , I'd be surprised. Now a
t-zex or curits will go much cheaper , . Also if you buy from a dealer
, you "should" have the dealers help with any and problems setting it
up , I may be wrong but I think Otmar would rather have people deal
with EV parts dealers than to deal with him direct ( after all he has
controllers to make ) . Once you buy your parts for a dealer you
should ask that dealer any and all questions.
It seems a bit unrealistic asking the same price:
1) It's used -- purchaser has no way of being sure how the item has been
treated.
2) The warranty is almost certainly *NOT* renewed when transferring to a
new owner. In some cases, warranties aren't even transferable.
3) Dealer / manufacturer is less likely to be helpful of someone that
didn't purchase the item from them. Especially a dealer.
The only (somewhat questionable) advantage is that he'd get the item sooner.
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hello cor van de water and neon john
good points .. sure ..
let me just fill in some of the info as per the llnl lab guys :
the stored energy is proportional to the rpm .. obviously
and to the mass .. obviously
and to the diameter of the fly-cylinder .. obviously
so as per the 'maths' .. if the rpm goes up to 65,000 (llnl figure)
or upto 80,000 .. commercial maker's figure .. or to 90,000 rpm
..commercial maker's newer models coming up
then we have much smaller dia, much smaller mass and much
smaller storage area
llnl guys estimate that at 65,000 rpm the size will be smaller than
conventional lead-acid batteries .. much smaller
to counteract the gyro effect, they suggest two EMB's spinning
in opposite directions .. to negate the gyro effect ..elementary
now about accidents .. well .. we are not discussing the
worst case scenario here ..
about many pounds of TNT .. mistake somewhere .. the
AmpHrs stored need to be similar to the energy stored
in batteries .. we are not DRIVING the vehicles with
EMB's yet .. those are just replacing the humble ordinary
lead battery .. you can't have many pounds of TNT's
explosive power there
oh .. btw .. the commercial maker IS making them for
BUSSES .. large capacities .. huh ? and i am sure
he will have to take care of all the fears that have
been outlined
nevertheless .. good discussion .. thanks friends .. we
MUST discuss the cons and the pros too .. for new
thingys !
...peekay
> On Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: April 27, 2006 12:16 AM
>
> Note that to store this amount of energy in a flywheel is must be about 2
ft
> in diameter and about 500 lbs heavy and run somewhere around 30,000 RPM.
>
> For the record: I do not believe in a gentle de-lamination and spooling
down
> of the flywheel, because it has magnetic bearings! as soon as it loses
just
> a tiny bit from one side it is no longer in balance, the bearings will
lose
> containment and I have trouble to see anything else than an immediate,
> destructive, release of energy.
> Either a release of a large amount of super-heated steel vapor (the former
> housing "rubbed away") or shrapnel in all lanes of the road. In a battery
> there is internal resistance and a fuse to limit the instantaneous power
> release.
> What safety is limiting the flywheel from releasing all its power in a
> fraction of a second?
> On Behalf Of Neon John
> Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:50 PM
>
> Let's suppose a 50KWh flywheel. That would be equivalent to a 250 volt,
200
> amp-hour pack. A nice pack that would make an EV quite practical for many
> people.
>
> If 50KWh is released essentially instantly, that is, explosively, then
that
> works out to 50KWh /4.1667 WH/gm = 12,000 grams = the explosion of 12kg of
> TNT. Twelve kilograms is 5.45 lbs.
>
> Thus, a 50KWh flywheel disintegrating releases the same explosive energy
as
> about five and a half pounds of TNT.
>
> In other words, a 50KWh flywheel disassembling itself would result in a
> big-assed explosion :-(
>
___________________________________________________________
24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 27, 2006, at 4:33 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
FWIW, if you ignore aerodynamic looses, the energy required to climb a
hill is basically the same whether you go up it fast or slow. So,
if you
have the power, you are better off going up it fast and keeping the
motor
heating do
But the power consumption will be higher, meaning you'll be drawing
power out of your batteries faster, and faster rates of discharge
lower the battery capacity.
Ed Kellogg
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chat… eckellogg138 (AIM)
eckellogg3838 (AIM)
Skype eckellogg
ICQ 243051412
a single charge, but I wasn't sure how much tougher the second
half of the
run would be. I have a two mile very steep grade to climb to get
over the
hills. I'm using back roads, so the speed limit is slower which
is an
advantage as far as ahrs used, but the gearing on my EM is such
that I was
worried I might overheat my motor at the lower RPMs. The motor
did get
hot, but not so hot to have me worried.
wn.
You might have the best results by taking a run at it and keeping the
throttle wide open the whole way up.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote Sunday, April 16, 2006 2:47 PM:
> Mark Freidberg wrote:
> > 1. Where can below-mentioned heatsink compound be purchased?
>
> www.jameco.com part# 236822CK $4.95
>
> > 2. Okay to install Curtis upside down so heatsink is on top?
>
> Yes, that's fine. Any position is fine except with the
terminals facing
> up unless you are *sure* it will never ever get water on top.
I have had no problem over ten years with my 1231C hanging upside
down off its heatsink. I have two big fans blowing air down on
the heatsink. At the time I felt that any air warmed in the case
of the controller would tend to rise against the portion of the
controller attached to the heatsink, thereby getting rid of the
heat quicker. That would be convection inside the controller
case. Then there is the conduction from the electrical parts
attached to the heatsink interface of the controller. With this
setup I have had no overheating problems with the controller -
even on the hottest days climbing the hills around here it just
gets mildly warm. I figure cool electronics are happy
electronics ==> happy driver :-) !
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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72 miles once, mixed freeway and then local streets, and I called
it at 72 miles when it got hard to move away well from a stop;
still had enough to get back a couple of miles to a charging
outlet. Several over-60 runs, including one 66 mile drive from
Larkspur to Stanford on hilly surface streets and freeways (at
about 50-55mph), then the last 11miles of the 66mi run was laps
at the rally. Then the pack collapsed and I crawled to the
charging station. But I generally view this car as about 50
miles max on a healthy pack. Frankly I don't go over 30 miles
hardly ever, although last fall I did 41miles with about
1000-1500 feet of elevation gain thrown in, and still had plenty
of energy to get up my hill, although the pack was definitely
down in the "bottom 1/4".
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 7:55 AM
Subject: longest range?
> What is the longest range everyone has gotten on their ev? If
you've gotten
> over 60, definitely let me know.
>
> Thanks, Alan
>
> --
> // Quotes from yours truly -------------------------
> "You don't forget, you just don't remember."
> "Maturity resides in the mind."
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joe and all,
The PFC chargers do not have automatic temperature compensation. You will
have to manually adjust the pack voltage as the seasons change. To get
automatic temperature compensation requires purchasing battery regulators
that sense the temperature AT THE BATTERY and turn down the charger through
the Regbus.
Is this available now (I should know, but I don't). With the huge
temperature swings around here lately, I'm getting tired of making the
voltage adjustments. I have MK2Bs - are you suggesting some other
regulator that we don't know about yet??? :) MK4s?
Does it just do another current adjustment, or does it actually adjust
the voltage?
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
peekay wrote:
> if the rpm goes up... then we have much smaller dia, much smaller
> mass and much smaller storage area
Agreed. This implies even higher stress levels on the materials, and so
a greater risk from failures.
> to counteract the gyro effect, they suggest two EMB's spinning
> in opposite directions .. to negate the gyro effect ..elementary
It negates the reaction of the case as a whole, but each flywheel reacts
independently through its bearings. The bearings will have to withstand
the full precession loads, exactly as if the were acting alone.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a matter of curiosity, what exactly IS the time line on Zilla Controllers?
I will have my motor installed in the next couple of weeks...hopefully.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
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--- Begin Message ---
David Ankers wrote:
Also, WHAT THE HELL IS THE ISSUE WITH PLUGGING A CAR IN? I've heard that a
lot. I hate getting petrol and plugging in is a bonus for me. I wonder if
these people have any electrical appliances at home? Of course, unless
they're secretly Amish then I'm truly sorry.
It's just brain-washing, I tell ya' - pure teen-level titter-tatter
tease-the-new-kid marketing that evidently still works these days.
I'm looking *forward* to plugging a clean, dry, small rubber cord into
my warm, quiet garage instead of lugging a big, heavy, smelly gas nozzle
at a cold, noisy gas station... ;-)
On a side note: did anyone else see that new Toyota Yaris commercial
where there is a little "gallon gas can body with gas nozzle legs"
spider crawling around, then gets squashed by the car, who proceeds to
stretch a small hose out the gas cap and gulp up the spilled gasoline?
Until the end where it's gulps the gasoline, that would of made out
phenomenally sweet electric car ad! Imagine it with the car whipping out
an electric cord from the gas cap, with then zooms in on the squished
guts (gas puddle) of the evil little spider, "sniffs" with it's ground
electrode, then pulls back sharply and waves it head back and forth in
disgust. Back in it goes and off zips the car, sans gasoline.
One can dream, no?
~ Peanut Gallery ~
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I'm charging outside without my blower. Repairing it now. The only down
side is the gassing will settle ontop of the batteries instead of getting
blown out the front of the car. Downsides? I'm not worried about
explosion. Just corrosion. If it was inside I'd worry.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey all, I'm new to this list, and I have yet to begin the conversion
project I have planned. I'd really like any pointers all you have for
the legalities of electric and hybrid conversions... and here's the hard
part: in California.
I'm especially interested in the legalities concerning the various
options for a hybrid systems's power unit: Gasoline, Diesel even Turbine
(eg. Capstone).
Thanks!
Erik G. Burrows
www.erikburrows.com
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--- Begin Message ---
San Francisco Police and Parking Enforcement used 3 wheel vehicles based on
Honda CX500 watercooled engines back in the 1980's. . Since it was a
motorcycle it had no reverse. The solution was electric but I don't know
how it was done. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: Does John really need reverse? was:White Zombie Update...360
Volts...More HP!
Reverse rotation kits are available for many engines, I would thus assume
that reverse rotation starters shouldn't be too much a problem. What is a
problem is John's car doesn't have a flywheel or a bell housing, so a more
clever solution will have to be devised to couple this up.
Yet another motor on the front of the Siamese 8? Okay, just a starter
motor, and it would only couple up when powered, but is there any room
left?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity."
At 09:20 PM 4/26/2006, you wrote:
Re- mount the starter on the other side so the bendix kick out will
still work?
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--- Begin Message ---
Not really much difference on these batteries. They are NiCads.
But the power consumption will be higher, meaning you'll be drawing power
out of your batteries faster, and faster rates of discharge lower the
battery capacity.
Ed Kellogg
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chat
eckellogg138 (AIM)
eckellogg3838 (AIM)
Skype eckellogg
ICQ 243051412
a single charge, but I wasn't sure how much tougher the second half of
the
run would be. I have a two mile very steep grade to climb to get over
the
hills. I'm using back roads, so the speed limit is slower which is an
advantage as far as ahrs used, but the gearing on my EM is such that I
was
worried I might overheat my motor at the lower RPMs. The motor did get
hot, but not so hot to have me worried.
wn.
You might have the best results by taking a run at it and keeping the
throttle wide open the whole way up.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
