EV Digest 5431
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: How to advance brushes?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Power/Electric Meter
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Going to the Movies, WAS: Review of Who Killed the Electric Car? on
Living on Earth
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Prius air-conditioning
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) The oil company / power company difference
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The oil company / power company difference
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: What is it with CVTs?
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: What is it with CVTs?
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: What is it with CVTs?
by "Jody Dewey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV postal van (not a C-van)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: EV Charging station
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Power/Electric Meter
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: What is it with CVTs?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Motor Blowers - do you use them? how?
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: The oil company / power company difference
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Power/Electric Meter
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) [IAGS] Comparing Hydrogen and Electricity for Transmission, Stora
ge and Transportation
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Power/Electric Meter
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
JMYGANN,
I've got 2 eteks in a 220lb motorcycle. 2.8:1 ratio in first gear. 1.9:1
in second gear. 65 mph in the 1/8 mile. About 20 inch tall tire. I think
with 4:1 ratio and enough amps, you'd have crazy torque. I like it.
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lee Hart" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: What is it with CVTs?
> What kind of performance could one expect using 2 Etek type motors
> each driving an axle directly with a belt at 4:1 ratio
>
> Assuming a light weight 4 wheel frame (sand rail) 48 - 72 volts
>
> 45 mph ??
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >> something like McKee's Sundancer; a 1600 lbs 2-seat sports
> car...
> > >> Twin Etek motors, each driving a rear wheel separately via
> snowmobile
> > >> belt-type CVT, contactor controller. A dozen 6v golf cart
> batteries
> > >> for power... 36v golf cart charger. Everything here is simple,
> cheap,
> > >> and available.
> >
> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > > Didn't I hear that they had stopped production on the Etek? I
> could
> > > only find one place that still advertised them and they want
> almost
> > > $900 ea. So that's $1800 for the pair.
> >
> > <http://www.evparts.com> lists the Etek MT1214 for $325 each.
> >
> > > I have no idea how much a CVT would cost that could handle both
> motors,
> > > I'm guessing a couple hundred though.
> >
> > The plan was to have *two* CVTs, one for each motor, independently
> > driving each wheel. The Comet Torq-A-Verter CVT setup is about $150
> > each. They are rated at 8HP continuous duty; two should work fine
> for a
> > 1600 lbs car.
> >
> > > A contactor will cost about $75-$100.
> >
> > No; you'd be using golf car size contactors that are more like $20
> each.
> > Each motor is only pulling perhaps 200a peak. A 3-step controller
> with
> > forward/reverse takes about 6 contactors.
> >
> > > An 8" ADC will set you back about $1300
> >
> > That's four Eteks.
> >
> > > an Alltrax 72V controller $650
> >
> > Enoug for four contactor controllers.
> >
> > > and a couple hundred for a two speed chain drive setup
> >
> > Your forgot the differential. The twin CVTs replace it as well.
> >
> > > My original query was why people seem so fascinated with jumping
> > > through hoops to get a CVT and somehow make it work. Several
> times
> > > I've seen people talking about building a super efficient EV, and
> > > then they go and spec a CVT. They seem to be working under the
> > > missimpression that it will have HIGHER efficiency than more
> mudane
> > > solutions.
> >
> > In general, I agree with you. A CVT is not very efficient. Simply
> > replacing the transmission in an EV with a CVT is a step backwards
> in
> > efficiency.
> >
> > But the CVT in *this* case is there to allow the tiny Etek motors
> to
> > provide adequate horsepower over a wide speed range without a
> > transmission, differential, or expensive controller. It's a
> special case
> > solution for a scratch-built car; not for the typical EV
> conversion.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You probably don't need to advance your motor. I believe you are running a
motor which is rated at 72v on 72v. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong,
but I believe motors are advanced to facilitate running them on higher
votages.
damon
From: "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: How to advance brushes?
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 13:06:34 -0400
Question,
I want to try advancing the brush timing on my ADC 6.7" 4HP A89 motor.
I am a total newbie when it comes to electric motors.
I am not sure how to do this. My first road block is how to get it
apart to get at them. I took out the bolts from the rear cap. I think
it is called a bell housing, right? I can get the bell housing to turn
a bit if I pull real hard, but it doesn't seem to want to slide off away
from the black main housing of the motor.
Do I need to do something to free it? I have held it from the unbolted
bell housing and shook it, but it didn't come off. Do I need to use a
pry bar or something?
Thanks,
Motor Newbie,
Garret
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are millions of used electric power meters for sale on the
surplus market. Usually for under $30. For a number of reasons, the
mechanical type is desirable over the electronic version. To make it
plug-through, arrange it like this:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/misc/power%20meter/
Now THAT's the ticket...The only one I could find was on, as you call
it, "sleezebay." I'll keep looking...
Thanks to all who responded...Y'all awrite...
Wayne W.
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was looking over the data on plasmaboys site and was wondering why his
amps can climp in 1/10 of a second when he is in series mode off of the
line. The two 8's in series would have twice the resistance(reactance)
of my 9 but at 1/2 the volts each should be about equal on the amp gain.
Is the fact that mine takes over a second to ramp up indicating a high
resistance after the controller? (maybe I need larger cables? (2/0)
In the future I want a better launch out of this thing, Other than
loosing 100 lbs, It seems like I need more motor before I need more
controller.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:57:23 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Two sprockets, one with a sprague (one way) clutch and the other with a
>Centrifugal clutch. The sprague side is used at low speeds and as the
>RPMs come up the centrifugal clutch engages a lower ratio (higher speed)
>setup.
That's "sprag" and not Sprague (the capacitor company :-), just in
case you go looking for one. Sprag is just one type of what is known
as an "overrun clutch".
>This has been done, successfully before. While I don't know exact prices
>for it, I doubt it would cost much more than a couple hundred dollars.
Yeah, I had a go-kart as a kid with that kind of two speed
transmission. There were a couple of problems. The first was that
you had to charge through the clutch engagement RPM range or else the
clutch would drag and the two ratios would fight each other and
acceleration would practically stop. I'm thinking back on this now
and theoretically that shouldn't happen but it did. A toggle-action
clutch would be nice.
The second problem is keeping the overrun clutch lubed and sealed from
dirt. On the go-kart, no particular effort was expended in this area
and as a result, the life of the overrun clutch and the shaft it ran
on was short. Ideally this whole affair would run in an oil bath.
Something else you might consider. In my collection of old motorcycle
literature is a retrofit kit from the 60s that gave a "dual purpose"
motorcycle two sets of final drive ratios, one for the street and one
for the dirt. The kit was a 2 speed bicycle deraileur (sp) on
steroids.
It used conventional motorcycle-type chain. The major difference was
that the sides of the rear sprockets were machined to the same profile
as bicycle deraileurs. I recall the magazine reviewers of the time
liking the idea, the only problem being that the deraileur hung down
where it could suffer rock damage. An enclosed version of this
operating in an oil bath might be quite slick and would be as
efficient as any other chain drive.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob
What are the details? When is it showing? Where is it showing? Is this at the
Tribeca Film Fest?
Dave Cover
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All;
>
> I'm gunna swipe the good Drs, note here, to ask, anybody ELSE in the
> Least Coast land gunna do the NYC showing of Who Killed the Electric car? I
> bought my ticket on line and will go down by train, electric,of course! to
> NYC, HowEVer if anybody else buddied up to go I might drive down, from CT,
> This is for the 930 showing on the second.Welcome to thw 13 bux MOVIE
> ticket!But this isn't Kansis anymore.Seeya there. Dave Goldstein is making
> the trek from DC.Anybody else?
>
> Seeya?
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dr. Polsinelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 4:07 PM
> Subject: Review of Who Killed the Electric Car? on Living on Earth
>
>
> > Thought you might be interested. No new info in the review.
> >
> > http://www.loe.org/shows/shows.htm?programID=06-P13-00017
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have done a lot of research in this area. I thought it would be possible
to buy a portable heat pump unit and take it apart for use in an EV. You
can buy the heat pump unit from Newegg.com for about 350 bucks. It draws 9
amps of AC 115v and has a digital control. The whole unit weighs 70 pounds.
It should be pretty easy to generate 10 amps of AC with an inverter. I
don't know if the unit will work off an inverter because of the modified
sine wave but even if it wouldnt you could then put a DC motor in place of
the AC unit to make it work at any voltage you wanted. Here is the link
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16896100124#DetailSpecs
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Brad Baylor
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 12:28 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Prius air-conditioning
The Toyota Prius has all electric AC from the 2004 year on. I noticed
on car-part.com you can get a Prius compressor, evaporator and
condensor for about $800 from various salvage yards. Does anyone have
specifics on what voltage the compressor motor is and how many amps?
It the motor/compressor integrated as a sealed unit like home ACs? And
what other parts might be needed to make it work in a conversion? Any
relevant web pages?
Brad Baylor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's always appeared to me that the power companies are indifferent
towards electric cars. Say for example, they had one million
customers and because of EV's, each customer used $1 more of
electricity a month. A million extra a month.
Now look at how much that Exxon guy supposedly made last year:
http://www2.townonline.com/bellingham/opinion/view.bg?articleid=483951
How much do the top people at your local power company make each year?
I don't think selling more power equates to more pay for the power
companies. Am I right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many power companies have not been indifferent about EVs. Many
utilities have been big supporters. However, they've been rebuffed
and burned by the auto makers more than once. They know that the
load balancing benefits of EVs and PHEVs would make utilities much
more efficient.
Some electric companies are forward thinking (promoting conservation
and renewables); some are pure near term bottom line focussed. Some
are private, some public. And the public & privates ones run the
gamut good to bad.
But compared to the oil giants, your electric provider is a small
town neighbor, and there is always some public accountability
possible via public utility commissions. The move from oil to grid-
electricity is a winner in more ways than we can count.
Marc
On Apr 30, 2006, at 6:31 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
It's always appeared to me that the power companies are indifferent
towards electric cars. Say for example, they had one million
customers and because of EV's, each customer used $1 more of
electricity a month. A million extra a month.
Now look at how much that Exxon guy supposedly made last year:
http://www2.townonline.com/bellingham/opinion/view.bg?articleid=483951
How much do the top people at your local power company make each year?
I don't think selling more power equates to more pay for the power
companies. Am I right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about using air conditioner electric clutches? You could have it turn
"on" to engage the clutch and have one, two, or three different gear ratios
according to how many chains or belts you wanted to run.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 6:36 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What is it with CVTs?
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:57:23 -0700 (MST), "Peter VanDerWal"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Two sprockets, one with a sprague (one way) clutch and the other with a
>Centrifugal clutch. The sprague side is used at low speeds and as the
>RPMs come up the centrifugal clutch engages a lower ratio (higher speed)
>setup.
That's "sprag" and not Sprague (the capacitor company :-), just in
case you go looking for one. Sprag is just one type of what is known
as an "overrun clutch".
>This has been done, successfully before. While I don't know exact prices
>for it, I doubt it would cost much more than a couple hundred dollars.
Yeah, I had a go-kart as a kid with that kind of two speed
transmission. There were a couple of problems. The first was that
you had to charge through the clutch engagement RPM range or else the
clutch would drag and the two ratios would fight each other and
acceleration would practically stop. I'm thinking back on this now
and theoretically that shouldn't happen but it did. A toggle-action
clutch would be nice.
The second problem is keeping the overrun clutch lubed and sealed from
dirt. On the go-kart, no particular effort was expended in this area
and as a result, the life of the overrun clutch and the shaft it ran
on was short. Ideally this whole affair would run in an oil bath.
Something else you might consider. In my collection of old motorcycle
literature is a retrofit kit from the 60s that gave a "dual purpose"
motorcycle two sets of final drive ratios, one for the street and one
for the dirt. The kit was a 2 speed bicycle deraileur (sp) on
steroids.
It used conventional motorcycle-type chain. The major difference was
that the sides of the rear sprockets were machined to the same profile
as bicycle deraileurs. I recall the magazine reviewers of the time
liking the idea, the only problem being that the deraileur hung down
where it could suffer rock damage. An enclosed version of this
operating in an oil bath might be quite slick and would be as
efficient as any other chain drive.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I may be wrong but I think that if you want to use two Etek motors I would
hook them together so you can use a single clutch. That way you don't have
to worry separate CVT's engaging at different times. I remember seeing a
porsche with two 8 inch motors hooked in tandem to drive a transaxle.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 2:46 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What is it with CVTs?
Can you point to some high performance racing CVTs? I'm sitting here
kicking around the idea of two ETEKs and a CVT on my CitiCar. I bet
that would really kick butt! A pointer or two to sources of used
equipment would be nice too.
Thanks,
John
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 23:37:59 -0700 (PDT), Ray Wong
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I have used CVTs on my snowmobiles and quads for many years. I have seen
them work well on +200hp snowmobiles.
>
> The Comet CVT I am using with the EZE is a lower cost basic model,
nothing fancy. I had several larger CVT from my snowmobiles (100hp range)
but thought they were overkill. In hindsight, the 100hp clutches were
needed for the twin Etek drive system. I have two Eteks coupled to the drive
clutch. The more power, the bigger the drive belts, the bigger the
clutches. The 25hp models work fine for a single Etek.
>
> The torsion springs and torque feedback ramps have limited availabilty in
the low cost CVTs. When you get high performance racing clutches, they have
ramps by 1 degree increments and many springs. Not cheap. It could be
interesting to see how consistent the lower cost clutches are made. The
belts on two clutches will not wear the same so there may be great sync
problems as the clutches get used.
>
> You will likely need a secondary reduction of about 3:1 if you have full
size wheels. Most CVT's have a 1:1 ratio at high speed so you will need to
reduce the Etek 3000 to 4000 rpm down to about 1000 rpm max. A 24inch wheel
at 1000 rpm will give you about 72mph.
>
> EZESPORT
>
>
>Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ray Wong wrote:
>> I think you need to do a bit more planning regarding the CVT. I have
>> done a bunch of testing of CVTs prior to making my choices for the EZE
>> Sports bike.
>
>Thank you, Ray. Yes, I'm sure a great deal of planning and
>experimentation will be needed. At this stage, this is more of a thought
>project. Your comments are exactly what is needed to help "zero in" on
>whether a CVT is a practical option, and which models to try first.
>
>> You will likely have a problem balancing the load on any setup with
>> 2 independent CVTs.
>
>I would guess that this just requires that the two CVTs need to be the
>torque-sensing type, and not strictly controlled by rpm.
>
>If the CVTs were strictly rpm-sensing, the two motors could be wired in
>series; this would force them to run at the same *torque*, and their
>rpms would vary. This might cause each CVT to shift to attempt to keep
>each motor's rpm about the same (thus each delivering about the same
>horsepower).
>
>> The 8hp torq-a-verter is grossly inadequate for the Etek. I have a
>> Tav-2 as one of my test CVT. The belt is much too small for even my
>> 400 lb motorcycle with one etek.
>
>Not surprising. I didn't see any engineering data on Comet's website,
>and so don't know at what torque/speed their HP ratings apply. The Etek
>is rated something like 15hp for a few seconds, so I suspected something
>bigger is needed. The question is of course *how much* bigger.
>
>> If you are looking at Comet products, I would recommend the 500/858
>> clutch or the 700 series. These are rated at 25hp and use a .92 to
>> 1.0" kevlar belt. I am using the Comet 500/858 on the EZE.
>
>Ok; that sounds like the place to start.
>
>> Using a CVT designed for a gas engine presents some tuning problems.
>> Engagement speed is normally set on a Comet CVT at around 2400rpm.
>> With an electric motor, you want to engage at almost 0 rpm which is
>> outside the design spec of the clutch but can be done. It took many
>> hours of testing to get a reasonable setup for driver springs,
>> driver weights, driven springs, belt diameter etc.
>
>Would you be willing to consult with anyone trying to follow in your
>footsteps, to get a similar setup working?
>
>> I suggest getting a copy of Olav Aaen's book "Clutch Tuning Handbook".
>> It should be available at most snowmobile dealer that sell high
>> performance snowmobile parts.
>
>Thanks; I'll look for it.
>
>Another question: Are you using the CVT for direct motor-to-wheel
>reduction, or a 2nd step gear or chain reduction. Bob McKee couldn't get
>a large enough diameter driven pulley, and so used a gear reducer in
>each wheel. This cost him some efficiency. He said he would like to have
>tried a 1-step reduction, with a larger fixed pulley on the axles, an
>idler on a swing arm, and the variable pulley on the motor.
>
>> Brushed Eteks are getting harder to find and have been going up in
>> price.
>
>Others commented on this as well. I wonder why? Is B&S discontinuing it?
>--
>Ring the bells that still can ring
>Forget the perfect offering
>There is a crack in everything
>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would think a much cheaper solution would be a world class T5
transmission. You can find them in the junkyard for under 1000 and you also
get reverse. The gear vendors overdrive sells for about 4000.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Stefan Peters
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 5:19 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: What is it with CVTs?
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Well,
> 1. I was trying to spec out a really cheap solution
> 2. I was not aware o the GearVendors over/underdrive
> 3. 1.28:1 isn't a very low ratio for "low" gear.
>
As for 1: no, it's not exactly cheap, just a thought I had for allowing
a smaller motor (7.5" or 8") motor to use direct drive with off the
shelf parts.
And for 2: if you have (let's say) 60MPH @ 3000RPM in high gear, then
you get 45MPH @ 3000RPM in low gear. This also places you at 15MPH @
1000RPM, and 30MPH & 2000RPM. Otherwise, if you mount the motor straight
to the driveshaft, you'd be at 1500RPM @ 30MPH.
My thought was that 1.28 would be just enough to get in-town driving up
into a better RPM range, while still allowing good efficiency on the
freeway. Plus it can handle gobs of torque (1200 ft/lbs I believe)
reliably. Install it and forget it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Impluse motor???
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:08 AM
Subject: RE: Can someone correct a misunderstanding?
> Thank you. My only remaining question would be: is that possible with a
> *single* 8" or 9" motor? Or am I asking too much?
>
> Apart from hat minor question, things look great (especially great if it's
> possible with an impulse motor).
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With twice the resistance his controller sees the volts climb fast a but the
amps are all with in line.
Your single 9 has a bit less Resistance and there for the motor amps shoot
up faster.. and the battery amps stay low for a bit longer. If you plotted
the motor amps.. you should see
just as fast Amps ramp up as John does.
Basicly with two 8 in series John's Zilla thinks it's loafing.. and lets
the amps fly faster.
I have noticed that now that I am back to a single 11 inch Kosty.. the Zilla
complains more on a hammer drop than the twin 8s did.
A single 9 without interpoles... probably will make the Zilla complian more
that my Kostov. The 9s I think are a bigger lower resistance motor.. the 11
is just bigger because it has more field coils to house.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
> I was looking over the data on plasmaboys site and was wondering why his
> amps can climp in 1/10 of a second when he is in series mode off of the
> line. The two 8's in series would have twice the resistance(reactance)
> of my 9 but at 1/2 the volts each should be about equal on the amp gain.
> Is the fact that mine takes over a second to ramp up indicating a high
> resistance after the controller? (maybe I need larger cables? (2/0)
>
> In the future I want a better launch out of this thing, Other than
> loosing 100 lbs, It seems like I need more motor before I need more
> controller.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4636295014
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was yakking with a Pape Service Guy this week. He services the fork trucks
at the Big new Kingston Lumber yard that Shares the buisness park with my
production shop.\
Clearlyl we got to talking about EVs and high power charging.. He also
agrees that there is a big question on why folks don't make really high rate
chargers for the Bigger packs. When you have a ton of lead and only 18
cells, a few hundred amps should be child's play. And one of the Big reasons
the heavy haulers can't get a Electric Forktruck to have the same cycle time
as Porpane or Gas is that they need 8 hours to charge. In Fact his Navy yard
Account want's 200 more lift trucks so they can have a couple on the tap
while the rest work.
Boy it sounds to me like making a 500 amp 36 to 72 volt charger could
walk into the market and clean house.
Wayland..aka Plasma Boy has told me that the Battery guys warn against
stuffing more than 150 amp into a 1000 amphour pack of flooded PbLas. He
really doesn't know why.. But... that's what the Pros tell him.
The iudustry hates the large form AGM packs, They die and cost a fortune
to serivce. We all know that a AGM has a LOT Of advantages,Sealed.. lower
internal R, No gas venting.
But they get boiled dry and out of equalization on a Cell level, and there
is now way to treat this without yanking cells. I expect that most folks
won't buy a special charger for large AGMs.
But.. I can see a solid voltage setting charger, and a set of 2 volt regs,
with feed back.. could be just the ticket for solving that issue.
Of course this might cost a bit more.. and most guys want cheap
quality... a feature the is close to a Oxymoron than I care to Guess.
So.. enertia and New ideas get eaten up and the heavy lifters.. use 1930
area batteries and chargers.
Boy I would like to change this.....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: EV Charging station
> On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 11:48:22 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Danny Miller wrote:
> >
> >> Neato, but how many batteries can take 400 amp charge rates?
> >
> >Essentially any battery used in a road-going EV. Any battery that can
> >deliver 400 amps can *charge* at 400 amps. The key point is that you can
> >only apply this kind of charging current when the cells are well away
> >from "full".
>
> Yes, absolutely! The battery chemistry is symmetrical. Whatever rate
> one can take it out, one can put it back in.
>
> That's the basis of my Cordless Battery Charger, one hour charger.
> It'll crank 250 amps into a 12 or 24 volt battery during the bulk
> stage. (Unfortunately that doesn't last too long with a golf cart
> battery because of the relatively high internal resistance - up to 50%
> charge or thereabouts.)
>
> The key is to keep the voltage below the bulk/absorption transition
> voltage. Different battery makers quote different voltages so it's a
> good idea to check before cramming :-)
>
> This "gotta charge slow" is one of the great myths of Pb batteries
> that so many manufacturers continue to spread. I understand why they
> do - cramming in high current with a dumb charger that will exceed the
> bulk/absorption voltage is a sure way to kill a battery, sometimes in
> one charge. But smart chargers are everywhere these days - even
> Wallyworld - so it's time to dispel that myth.
>
> I've had a devil of a time doing that in the RV world. For those who
> have listened (and either bought one of my CBCs or a medium speed
> charger such as the Iota or Intellipower), the result has been very
> satisfactory - charging the house pack in an hour or just a little
> more.
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
> Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found a few on ebay, in particular a "Schlumberger 240V 3W
200A Watt Hour digital meter." I'm uncertain as to the voltage
metering capabilities...Is the 240v rating simply the maximum voltage
or the required voltage? I guess what I'm asking is if 110v is the
imput/throughput voltage, will the meter record the correct kwh
usage? I assume it will but i don't want to spring for something
that will only look cool in the garage...
Thanks all,
Wayne W.
At 03:54 PM 4/29/2006, you wrote:
On Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:01:05 -0500, Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Where can one find a reliable (and inexpensive) electric/power
>meter? I'm looking for a plug-through, re-settable device for
>recording KWH usage...
>
>Large thanks...
Do you use Google? Try "watthour meter" and "electric power meter".
If you use them, Sleazebay also usually has a host of meters.
There are millions of used electric power meters for sale on the
surplus market. Usually for under $30. For a number of reasons, the
mechanical type is desirable over the electronic version. To make it
plug-through, arrange it like this:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/misc/power%20meter/
You don't need to reset the meter. Simply write the start time and
date and the start reading on the face of the meter with a Sharpie or
grease pencil. If you insist on resetting, get the dial, as opposed
to the cyclo or "odometer" type meter. You can remove the glass jar
and carefully turn the pointers on their shafts back to zero. More
trouble than it's worth, IMO.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
If those of us who "can", "do" then those of us who "can't" won't
suffer as much from the high prices of excess.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jody Dewey wrote:
I would think a much cheaper solution would be a world class T5
transmission. You can find them in the junkyard for under 1000 and you also
get reverse. The gear vendors overdrive sells for about 4000.
A much cheaper solution would be to use the mint-condition W50 I have in
my garage. Which I got for my conversion and likely will use due to
budget constraints. Like I said, it's just a thought for dropping the
manual and having a much more efficient (and compact, and lighter)
setup. Of course for that much lettuce, I could just get a 9" motor and
run direct. But then most of my driving - 35MPH - would be outside of
the desirable RPM range (for best efficiency and cooling), correct?
I was thinking of part code "*3D0400*": it's a 4" long unit with a TH400
compatible input (a splined shaft input with included coupler, 6 bolt
mounting circle, same output as original tranny), and a parasitic loss
of less then 0.25%. And this is with an electric input shift signal
(dash pushbutton included). It's $2,395.00. They also list the part code
"MULTI" for the same price, which is described as a "double overdrive"
(without a driveshaft adapter) for custom & racing applications. It's
two units mounting together for higher ratios. Since they are
reversible, this would give a much lower "low" gear.
Also I found out this:
" Some people are surprised to learn that we've been involved in
Electric Vehicles since the mid '80s.* GEAR VENDORS* has designed and
built several transmissions for Chryslers TEVan project (electric
version of the Dodge Caravan/Plymouth Voyager), Georgia Power and a
number of universities entered in research and development of hybrids
and alternative fuel cars and trucks. Electric racing interested us
because of the high sustained rpm and the absolute need for efficiency.
BGSU's (Bowling Green State University) Electric Falcon was the winner
of the Phoenix Grand Prix at PRI. The Lincoln motor turns the *GEAR
VENDORS* 12000 rpm for sustained runs. A fairly impossible task for most
transmissions."
So it might be worth it to talk to them about a setup for road-going
EVs... Just a thought :-)
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jody Dewey wrote:
> I may be wrong but I think that if you want to use two Etek motors
> I would hook them together so you can use a single clutch. That way
> you don't have to worry separate CVT's engaging at different times.
With an electric motor, you don't NEED a clutch. The motor can be
coupled to the wheels all the time. All that changes is the "gear
ratio", as the CVT shifts.
The Sundancer with the twin CVT drive used a GE 8HP series motor, with a
shaft on each end. Each end had a pair of belt-drive CVT pulleys with a
1:1 to 3:1 ratio. The belts were about 1.25" wide. The driven pulleys
drove each rear wheel separately via a 4.88:1 gear reducer. There were
no clutches in the CVT pulleys.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, thanks for the air filter tip. I actually have one of Bohm's
blowers - and one unused spot under a few batteries where it will (barely)
fit. Might have to resort to pantyhose to keep out the debris... BTW,
pantyhose and a zip tie work wonders for keeping grass and dirt out of R/C
airplane engines!
How I wish the DE of the motor had intake vents - just hook a blower up to
the starter hole in the transmission!
Now I need to find some room for the Zilla cooling package. After that the
rest is wiring :)
Adrian
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan, I know that you're a barely post-pubescent college kid and that
self-control comes hard at that age but let's try a little harder,
shall we?
Take this crap somewhere else. It is grossly off-charter and
irrelevant to EVs.
There is an old saying that goes "When you're talking you're not
listening and when you're not listening you're not learning". I've
noticed that you do a lot of "not learning" on this list.
At your age you need to be doing a lot of listening and learning so
maybe when you grow up you can become a corporate executive and learn
what it's like to answer to shareholders.
It's a real shock to learn that shareholders - people like us who
invest their money and expect the best possible returns - get ticked
when executives do empty vacuous meaningless feel-good stunts that
take away from the bottom line.
John
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:31:42 -0500, "Ryan Stotts"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>It's always appeared to me that the power companies are indifferent
>towards electric cars. Say for example, they had one million
>customers and because of EV's, each customer used $1 more of
>electricity a month. A million extra a month.
>
>Now look at how much that Exxon guy supposedly made last year:
>
>http://www2.townonline.com/bellingham/opinion/view.bg?articleid=483951
>
>How much do the top people at your local power company make each year?
> I don't think selling more power equates to more pay for the power
>companies. Am I right?
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 22:00:36 -0500, Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I found a few on ebay, in particular a "Schlumberger 240V 3W
>200A Watt Hour digital meter." I'm uncertain as to the voltage
>metering capabilities...Is the 240v rating simply the maximum voltage
>or the required voltage? I guess what I'm asking is if 110v is the
>imput/throughput voltage, will the meter record the correct kwh
>usage? I assume it will but i don't want to spring for something
>that will only look cool in the garage...
A 240 volt digital meter will NOT work on 120 volts. IT isn't that
the watt sensing wouldn't be accurate - it would be - it's that the
electronics won't get sufficient voltage to operate. These meters
invariably contain a little 240 volt primary transformer that powers
the electronics. Unfortunately I've yet to find one with a center tap
so that it could be re-powered on 120.
You might could substitute a 120vac power transformer - maybe cut a
wall wart open or order one from Digikey but you'd still need to check
the calibration. The meters that use hall effect sensors as
multipliers to do the watts calculation will work fine. The ones that
do A/D conversions, then calculate the watts in software would have to
be tested. A 120vac signal might have too few A/D bits to produce an
accurate computation.
An electromechanical meter WILL work on 120 if you connect it as my
photos show. The potential signal will be half of normal on 120 but
by passing the current signal through twice, once on the way out and
once on the way back, the double current signal exactly compensates.
You'll note in my photo that the black lead is hooked to one meter hot
leg and the white lead is hooked to the other. That makes 120vac
available to the potential coil and 2X the current signal available to
the amp coils.
I own more than 50 electromechanical meters and quite a few electronic
ones that I use for doing energy audits. They're all NIST-traceably
calibrated so I know that this connection works. I own a wide variety
of models, as I buy them surplus and then calibrate them so I'm
confident that this is a universally acceptable solution.
There is another consideration with electronic meters. They contain
primary Li batteries to power the internal RTC and memory when the
power is off. It is assumed that the power won't be off for long with
a utility meter so the battery is small relative to the standby power
consumption. Battery life isn't so hot. If you'll be storing the
meter unpowered much of the time then you'll need to disconnect the
battery which loses any stored values and sometimes programming,
depending on the model. This means either taking the jar off and
removing the plug or wiring up some sort of switch that would be
accessible through the back. The electronics can be at line voltage
so care should be exercised.
I modified one of my electronic meters to use a NiCad battery and to
charge it when powered. That was less than satisfactory. The
electronics are not designed to shut down gracefully as the battery
backup dies, or are they designed to come up cleanly when re-powered.
If the Nicad is discharged, when power is applied, the voltage wafts
up over a few minutes as the NiCad accepts its first charge. The
electronics don't like that and the usual result is a locked-up
processor.
The instructions that come with every electronic meter I've ever seen
instruct the tech to attach a fresh Li battery BEFORE applying line
power. This is to ensure that the processor comes up cleanly.
A major design goal with these meters is cheap accuracy, as utilities
typically pay less than $30 ea for the meters. There is a LOT of
stuff packed into those meters for $30 but one thing that isn't is
circuitry to gracefully handle a dying or charging standby battery.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Old study into energy security, but very relevant to see that
electricity is the clear winner (pardon the pun).
http://www.iags.org/n071204t1.htm
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try
http://www.hialeahmeter.com/siphwame.html
Hialeah Meter Company
450 West 28th Street P.O. Box 1047 Hialeah, FL 33011
Toll Free - 800.654.0821
Wayne wrote:
There are millions of used electric power meters for sale on the
surplus market. Usually for under $30. For a number of reasons, the
mechanical type is desirable over the electronic version. To make it
plug-through, arrange it like this:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/misc/power%20meter/
Now THAT's the ticket...The only one I could find was on, as you call
it, "sleezebay." I'll keep looking...
Thanks to all who responded...Y'all awrite...
Wayne W.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
